MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby georgiedenbro » 20 Jun 2018 10:13

Freakzilla wrote:I forgot about that one. I suppose he could have been and Hwi was an improvement on that design.


The BT were always clever, but I wonder how they ever came up with a way to create someone who could become a boon companion to Leto II. Interesting to note that they more or less used the same trick to ensnare Leto II as they used for Paul.
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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby Naib » 20 Jun 2018 15:47

georgiedenbro wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I forgot about that one. I suppose he could have been and Hwi was an improvement on that design.


The BT were always clever, but I wonder how they ever came up with a way to create someone who could become a boon companion to Leto II. Interesting to note that they more or less used the same trick to ensnare Leto II as they used for Paul.


3,500 years of observation and repetition, perhaps?

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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby pcqypcqy » 24 Jun 2018 22:57

georgiedenbro wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I forgot about that one. I suppose he could have been and Hwi was an improvement on that design.


The BT were always clever, but I wonder how they ever came up with a way to create someone who could become a boon companion to Leto II. Interesting to note that they more or less used the same trick to ensnare Leto II as they used for Paul.


I didn't think the BT had much to do with it, other than giving the Ixians the technology?



Code: Select all

"I . . . ahhh..." Moneo chewed at his upper lip. "The Tleilaxu have been quite
garrulous in the attempt to ingratiate themselves with me."
"Of course they have. And what have they revealed?"
"They... ahhh, provided the lxians with sufficient advice and equipment to make
a . . . uhhh, not exactly a ghola, and not even a clone. Perhaps we should use
the Tleilaxu term: a cellular restructuring. The . . . ahhh, experiment was
conducted within some sort of shielding device which the Guildsmen assured them
your powers could not penetrate."
"And the result?" Leto felt that he was asking the question in a cold vacuum.
"They are not certain. Tleilaxu were not permitted to witness. However, they did
observe that Malky entered this . . . ahhh, chamber and that he emerged later
with an infant."
"Yes! I know!"
"You do?" Moneo was puzzled.
"By inference. And all of this happened some twenty-six years ago?"
"That is correct, Lord."
"They identify the infant as Hwi Noree?"
"They are not certain, Lord, but..." Moneo shrugged.
"Of course. And what do you deduce from this, Moneo?"
"There is a deep purpose built into the new Ixian Ambassador."
"Certainly there is. Moneo, has it not struck you as odd how much Hwi, the
gentle Hwi, represents a mirror of the redoubtable Malky? His opposite in
everything, including sex."


Code: Select all

"Nobody tells the truth," Malky husked.
"You often told me the truth," Leto said. "Even when you didn't know it."
"That's because you're cleverer than the rest of us."
"Will you tell me about Hwi?"
"I think you already know it."
"I want to hear it from you," Leto said. "Did you get help from the Tleilaxu?"
"They gave us knowledge, nothing more. Everything else we did for ourselves."
"I thought it was not the Tleilaxus' doing."
Moneo could no longer contain his curiosity. "Lord, what is this of Hwi and
Tleilaxu? Why do you..."

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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jun 2018 09:05

Obviously Malky was genetically engineered but maybe not specifically to charm/befriend Leto. That could have been an unexpected result and from that they got the idea for Hwi.
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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby georgiedenbro » 26 Jun 2018 09:56

I'm hesitant to accept that the BT only gave the Ixians technology and the Ixians did all the rest, only because later on we learn that the BT have completely infiltrated and perhaps even taken over the Ixians. Maybe that just happens after the events in question in which Hwi is made. But maybe the BT had been allowing the Ixians to believe they were in control the whole time, until the BT were ready to unveil themselves and reveal that they'd been controlling things all along. After all, the Ixians might well think they had control of their environment whether or not they really did. It's not like they could tell the difference unless they had RM's working with them, which I doubt. I also say this because the taking down of Leto II too closely resembles the taking down of Paul for it not have been devised by the BT one way or another. Maybe they let the Ixians execute the plan only to avoid exposure if things went south, so the Ixians could take the heat for it.
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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby pcqypcqy » 26 Jun 2018 21:31

georgiedenbro wrote:I'm hesitant to accept that the BT only gave the Ixians technology and the Ixians did all the rest, only because later on we learn that the BT have completely infiltrated and perhaps even taken over the Ixians. Maybe that just happens after the events in question in which Hwi is made. But maybe the BT had been allowing the Ixians to believe they were in control the whole time, until the BT were ready to unveil themselves and reveal that they'd been controlling things all along. After all, the Ixians might well think they had control of their environment whether or not they really did. It's not like they could tell the difference unless they had RM's working with them, which I doubt. I also say this because the taking down of Leto II too closely resembles the taking down of Paul for it not have been devised by the BT one way or another. Maybe they let the Ixians execute the plan only to avoid exposure if things went south, so the Ixians could take the heat for it.


I'll be honest, I've never really considered this. It takes a bit of reading between the lines, but I can see where you're coming from.

My only thought against it is: wouldn't Leto have known all of this? He seems to accept Malky's word on the matter towards the end when he's brought to Arrakis. Surely Leto would be able to see through this.

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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby georgiedenbro » 27 Jun 2018 10:23

pcqypcqy wrote:My only thought against it is: wouldn't Leto have known all of this? He seems to accept Malky's word on the matter towards the end when he's brought to Arrakis. Surely Leto would be able to see through this.


I'm not sure how important it is to the story whether we assume Leto believes him or not. And even if he does it only means he believes Malky is telling the truth, not that Malky is correct. Either way it seems weird to me that the Ixians of all people should be conspiring against Leto, especially when he's apparently been financing their research into the INM. Altogether it seems too subtle a plan for a machine-minded people interested only in profits to come up with or risk doing. Maybe they wanted revenge for Leto scrapping their self-improving hunter seeker program :techie-hal:
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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby Freakzilla » 29 Jun 2018 21:41

I entire Ixian embassy at Onn was replaced with face dancers and Hwi didn't even notice. Leto relied on RM Antiac to verify this. Leto only used prescience when absolutely necessary or to ensure the GP continued. However, Leto seemed to consider the BT fools and didn't consider them a serious threat.
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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby pcqypcqy » 29 Jun 2018 21:56

georgiedenbro wrote:
pcqypcqy wrote:My only thought against it is: wouldn't Leto have known all of this? He seems to accept Malky's word on the matter towards the end when he's brought to Arrakis. Surely Leto would be able to see through this.


I'm not sure how important it is to the story whether we assume Leto believes him or not. And even if he does it only means he believes Malky is telling the truth, not that Malky is correct. Either way it seems weird to me that the Ixians of all people should be conspiring against Leto, especially when he's apparently been financing their research into the INM. Altogether it seems too subtle a plan for a machine-minded people interested only in profits to come up with or risk doing. Maybe they wanted revenge for Leto scrapping their self-improving hunter seeker program :techie-hal:


True enough. Not sure about the revenge motive, but everything else is quite interesting.

But I guess Leto being a Tyrant, everyone had some sort of motive for trying to de-throne him.

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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby distrans » 01 Jul 2018 16:24

its a mistake to belive that seducing the emperor was an ability built above and beyond suscessfully administering the embassy on rakis

she was a specific tool wielded by ix independent of their official presence on the planet

wholey independant of that duty

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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby georgiedenbro » 03 Jul 2018 09:22

distrans wrote:its a mistake to belive that seducing the emperor was an ability built above and beyond suscessfully administering the embassy on rakis


Do you mean to say that the only way to administer the embassy was to seduce the Emperor?
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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby distrans » 03 Jul 2018 19:57

no
im saying it wouldnt enhance the seductress to know much about the administration of the embassy and I don't believe it was something she was at all trained to do to any degree other than figuratively

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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby georgiedenbro » 04 Jul 2018 10:13

distrans wrote:no
im saying it wouldnt enhance the seductress to know much about the administration of the embassy and I don't believe it was something she was at all trained to do to any degree other than figuratively


I think we can take it for granted that she and Malky were intelligent enough to both be able to do what they were meant to do (to Leto) and to maintain a diplomatic function as well.
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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby the rev » 17 Mar 2019 20:01

I don't want to get into this too much because it's been a while since I've read God Emperor and don't want to get in over my head. I can understand casually making the mistake made in the title of this thread. Malky and Hwee have similarities to the Tleilax experiments in their pure good/evil KH.

I assume by Tleilax giving us 'the knowledge' they mean the tanks. I suppose you could interpret it as meaning knowledge of the KH experiments but the Tleilax only share when they have to. Unlikely. It's tempting to read too much into the books. Frank says so much with so little and the amount he gave us is finite. You end up coming back to a morsel of information over and over and it's easy to start reading things that aren't there.

Malky and Hwee are fascinating characters and like so much of the Dune books, leaves me hungry for more. How is Malky evil? It's not explicitly explained. He's not Hitler or Stalin or Paul, I don't feel like he's genocidal. I've always as interpreted him as an old raconteur type, almost a bad Mark Twain. He's evil because he's immoral. He's honest, not afraid to hurt others' feelings, understands a man has to get his hands dirty to get ahead in the world. Necessary evil is what I'm thinking of. Which fits the God Emperor to a T. He can understand and communicate with the GE in a way somone like Moneo never could. That's what made Hwee and Malky so special, they could see his human side, both the good and the evil. A God is above that stuff.

Either way it seems weird to me that the Ixians of all people should be conspiring against Leto, especially when he's apparently been financing their research into the INM. Altogether it seems too subtle a plan for a machine-minded people interested only in profits to come up with or risk doing.


It's the Ixians who succeed in destroying the GE. Hwee was the distraction that sealed his fate. The Ixians are machine minded, so are we. I see the Ixians as very similar to our society. Malky's worldliness would fit in our society. Reading the books it's easy to pigeonhole different groups. Tleilaxu are stupid and predictable, the Ixians are limited, narrow, machine-like people. Once again it's the limited information Frank gives us. They are people who enjoy luxury, wealth, run large corporations, love convenience. Cell phones, automatic doors, self driving cars. He made people walk everywhere! The GE must have been hell on those type of people. The Tyrant.(I know I'm doing what I complained about earlier, reading a lot into a little but Frank can paint a picture.)

The opposite is the KJ books, everyone is a one dimensional stereotype of what they were in Frank's books. They're a terrible influence that way.

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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby istaivan » 17 Mar 2019 21:07

Thing is, Leto is deliberately offing himself. We kind of know that by a certain ways into GEoD. What's funny is that Frank can still manage to make it suspenseful, or we can suppose that we still find it suspenseful because we're mere mortals that actually believe Leto is trying to continue to survive (like the mere mortals around Leto who also believe it). Reminds me of Duncan in CoD when he has the vision about the Laza Tigers at the conference table and he's just so -far- ahead of Alia's thought processes that there would be an issue of maintaining suspense -except- for the constraints on Duncan due to his sense of honor. (he rests his hand on is sword hilt for one second...then changes his mind.) That was one of the weaknesses of CoD it felt like, Leto and Duncan were inches away from just riding off into the sunset together and taking down Alia much more easily except that events just barely prevented them from meeting each other one more time.

Art thrives on constraints. I am with those of you who stated Leto's powers are basically near-infinite and he sees everything except the 'hole' around the no-room where Hwi was birthed. Thing is, if he can see everybody right down to their thought processes he can also see Malky's thoughts as he gloats about achieving Hwi 5 seconds after he steps out of the no-room. One thing Malky can't do is go "I be he hasn't figured out X, Y, and Z." because that lists things out for Leto to read.
...-Unless- Malky is at least a near-KH like Hasimir Fenring where Leto -can't- read him.
Or: Malky is a virtual prisoner inside the physical confines of that No-Room for 26 years. Until the Fish Speakers bodily drag him out. And it does sort of feel that way when there is discussion about how long it's been just generally since Malky was 'recalled' by his government and stopped being ambassador. Frank does give a sense it's been a number of years.

Or: They do things in such away that they are conditioned not to -remember- what happened in the No-Room. And Malky sees ten beelion Fish Speakers swarming outside his HQ and says, 'oh well i'll be seeing Leto again shortly, I may as well read the file on what we did and 'reacquaint' myself with what occurred.'

Or: it's not a 'brainwashing to forget' but the Tleilaxu and Ixians compartmentalize things so well that even though Malky is generally overseeing the project (and possibly contributing genetic material) he truly doesn't know one way or the other the limits of what the Tleilaxu were giving them in terms of technological advice or not, and is just spinning a yarn for Leto. Because Leto can read them 5 seconds -before- they step into the No-Room too, so how do you not leave a big long trail leading into the no-room from -that- direction. That's a whole other mess.

You could even go so far as to say forcing the Ixians and Tleilaxu to be however many times more devious in taking Leto down compared to the conspiracy that took down Paul, is a kind of -rigor- imposed by Leto of an equal but different sort to making the ordinary citizens of the empire walk everywhere on foot. A kind of behavioral rigor or training, despite the fact that superficially, yes, the Ixians drive around in flying cars and what not. So not just the bare technological fact of the No-Room but the evolutionary side effects of developing it, on the day to day nature of the Ixians and the BT. We see only directly the stuff happening on Arrakis itself like what became of the Museum Fremen because that's the main venue of the novel, but there's no reason to suppose that these behavioral alterations aren't going on all over the place (and haven't been going on for a goodly time) even among his 'enemies'. They cannot but-be what he's made of them by this point.

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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby the rev » 18 Mar 2019 06:43

Thanks for your thoughts on this, good stuff.

Thing is, Leto is deliberately offing himself.


Aaah, sort of. Wheels within wheels there. It's not so much he wants to die as he needs to die. He's an infinite sort of being, his God side, life and death don't matter. He's already lived for ever, in one moment he could live a thousand years. He can't ever die. Even when his physical body is destroyed he lives on in the Worms. He knows intellectually that death is impossible.

Then there's the Worm. We're all animals, we have instincts of self-preservation. We react instinctively to save ourselves. Even if you try to kill yourself by drowning your body still struggles for air. He doesn't let Duncan kill him with the Lasgun, he reacts and blocks it. This works on a subconscious level. I've been depressed before, seriously considered suicide. It's really really hard, all living beings have an instinct for life. This is the reason for the blind spot, why he loves 'surprises'. As soon as he sees a single thread of it, the future gets locked in so he can't allow himself to see any part of his death or it won't happen. He'll instinctively preserve himself.

And he's still Leto the human, the man who made the choice to become the Worm. This is a part of the Emperor that wants to die. In many ways he's as lost and out of his own time as Duncan. Seeing Duncan's struggle in a way he isn't allowed to gives him relief. He misses his sister terribly, yet at any time he can be with her whenever he wants to. Since she is literally inside him. Truly a bizarre being, it's so hard to understand a KH because of the time factor. It's like the analogy of the flatlanders seeing a 3D world for the first time. Trying to understand the God Emperor is like that, a being partially outside the confines of time.

There's also Hwee. He's never been in love, never experienced those emotions. He's human, feeling them for the first time. The agony, the joy. You can reflect on how that would make his death wish waver, flicker, then grow stronger, then flicker again.

The purpose of Leto's existence is to send humanity down the Golden Path. Once this begins he is no longer needed. In fact if he were to live after humanity entered it's Golden Path he would be a hindrance and could send humanity spiraling off it. His prescience. One of the parts I picked up on last time I read it, I hadn't really thought about before, was the vision of Siona keeping him trapped on a little island with a moat. Humanity would have it's sealed KH on call, a caged oracle, to turn to from time to time when the going got rough. Intriguing stuff.

He's been down this road so many times before. He's been trying to set the conditions to kill himself for thousands of years. Failure upon failure. There's no reason this time should be any different. The thought of success, of dying, is exhilerating because it means he's achieved his purpose. But it is death, and then there's Hwee who's 'Something New'. What it comes down to, whether he wants to die or not doesn't matter. He needs to survive until humanity is on it's Golden Path and then he has to die.

Malky's No Room is interesting. We never learn what it really is. Is it a little room with a desk and a typewriter, looks kind of like Frank's study? The Fish Speakers/Beverly drag him out of it kicking and screaming? Is it a palace? A city. Or a Space Station, or a moon? Or an entire planet? We know that's possible because of the later books. More intriguing stuff, this is how you write. You don't spell it out for people you let the reader's imagination build it up and run with it. This is why making a film adaptation is so difficult, almost impossible. I think Jorodowsky may have had the right idea. It shouldn't be something obvious and simple scifi like the Star Trek/Star Wars stuff we're used to. Jungian archetypes, psychedelic imagery, The Great Masterbator, blah blah blah. Very difficult.

And he's also got his blind spot, anything related to his death he can't see which is a big hint. He can't 'see' what Malky is thinking through his prescience, he has to use his wit and intellect, his massive understanding of human nature. It's like having a conversation with idiots. You know what they're going to say before they speak it. I think a lot of stuff that seems like prescience is actually Leto deducing things from experience and reasoning. His prescience is like peeking through hands covering his eyes.

That was one of the weaknesses of CoD it felt like, Leto and Duncan were inches away from just riding off into the sunset together and taking down Alia much more easily except that events just barely prevented them from meeting each other one more time.


What makes CoD intriguing, despite the obvious plot and literal armor of Leto, is who's going to die and how they're going to die. By the end Alia's madness has degraded her into a KJ type villain, a cartoon caricature of the Baron. The suspense involves the other characters, we know Duncan's marked for death but how? Gurney, Stilgar, Paul, Jessica, etc. who survives and how do they die if they do. Towards the end Farad'n becomes almost a second main character, a Paul changeling. How you feel about the book depends partly on how much interest you can find for him and his fate. Marriage is one obvious choice but a terrible death is another. You glean a bit more information about House Corrino and Salusa Secundus. Information on any of the secondary families or characters is like buried treasure.

Man, this got long. Dune does that. It's been a couple of years at least since I last read the books a lot of this stuff isn't fresh. Trying not to make errors.

Next time I read I'd like to follow the Chapter by Chapter synopsis here. I remember I skimmed it a couple times around the last time I read the books. Found a couple mistakes, maybe contradictions between the editions they may be errors in the UK versions? I'll try to do that next time might be interesting.

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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby Freakzilla » 18 Mar 2019 10:56

the rev wrote:Next time I read I'd like to follow the Chapter by Chapter synopsis here. I remember I skimmed it a couple times around the last time I read the books. Found a couple mistakes, maybe contradictions between the editions they may be errors in the UK versions? I'll try to do that next time might be interesting.


I'd appreciate if you'd point those out to me if you do.
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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby georgiedenbro » 19 Mar 2019 11:37

@ rev,

I don't have time to look for a quote now but I believe it's explicitly stated in GEoD that the Tleilaxu are possibly behind Malky, and are certainly the creators of Hwi. The Ixians provided the no-room, but I can't really believe they came up with the plan of how to undermine Leto II. It's a BT plan from start to finish, exactly as they did with Paul. We know little of the Ixians, other than that they seem to share something in common with the Guild; they will advance their own interests without taking risks, and seem to have no stake in interfering with politics if they're left to do their thing. I'm halfway convinced that the Ixians in fact had *nothing* to do with this plan and that they had already been infiltrated by the BT. But I'll have to read the book again to see if I can find positive evidence of this.

@ istaivan,

Who are you referring to regarding thinking that Leto II's powers are near-infinite? For my part I don't think he had any ability at all to read minds, or to be aware of every thing that happened at all places in the universe. He had to choose where to focus, and despite being a mentat still had a limited timeframe in which to scan. He even made reference to paying more attention to certain kinds of things compared to others, which means he wasn't aware of all at once. Part of his decision-making about what to observe was probably some combination of control and allowing himself the chance for some real surprises, within parameters of course. I do agree that there's a technical issue about whether he realistically could have been aware of a no-room, but as FH seems to have rarely been interested in exploring technical issues (like to define exactly what the limits of a power are, or exactly how a tech works) I don't think it's a factor that matters for the story.
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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby istaivan » 19 Mar 2019 16:57

Anteac + Fish Speakers come for Malky.

I like the point that the no 'Room' isn't really adumbrated. It might actually just be a shell that actually surrounds say, several (or many) floors of an office or building like complex and maybe to look at it you wouldn't know you were passing through the limits of the thing if the shell is hidden between what looks like ordinary building walls or ceilings or floors. There could be elevators and what not that take you right on out of the thing and you would be none the wiser. So Hwi's environment if she were kept in there with Malky could have been physically quite expansive. With quarters for her teachers and what not.

As to being able to read everybody's thoughts. We don't really see that type of ability except maybe by mistake when Frank was still deciding how Paul's prescient vision looked. I stand corrected. but at times in the first book it seemed like his ability to see the 'Now' encompassed a pretty impressive sweep. Although, if you have as has been said, a level of human understanding to where you can pretty well guess people's actions -without- literal thought-reading...

Or another thing:
If Paul can walk the future, see a record, and know his mother is a Harkonnen.
..Then Leto can read any physical medium that -isn't- as complex as a bunch of bouncing neurological impulses (brain matter).
...and read the blueprints of the No-Room before it's built, or any number of precursor technologies leading to it. So people must not be writing anything down :).

Taking another Alan Watts saying (and my that must be getting over-familiar now from me) "the way the world actually is, is an amazingly complex inter-related organism". As to the prohibition on Leto seeing things 'related to his death'..where does the division between 'directly related to his demise' and 'not' begin and the other leave off? If we build these gradations with our own consciousness, is Leto's blind spot about his own death self-imposed?
And here i mean on a more subconscious level than when he wills himself 'not to look at the 'blip' that Siona makes or the No-Room makes'. So it's not that we can't physically imagine him seeing his own death but it's...beyond his mental makeup to do so. At some bedrock level. Like Elizabeth I being pathologically unable or unwilling to even think about the Stuart succession.
Last edited by istaivan on 21 Mar 2019 01:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby the rev » 19 Mar 2019 18:52

I don't have time to look for a quote now but I believe it's explicitly stated in GEoD that the Tleilaxu are possibly behind Malky, and are certainly the creators of Hwi. The Ixians provided the no-room, but I can't really believe they came up with the plan of how to undermine Leto II. It's a BT plan from start to finish, exactly as they did with Paul.


You're thinking of the bit I talked about earlier about the Tleilax giving them the technology. That's all it is. For whatever reason in this book the Tleilax are fools. I wonder at what point Frank decided they would be who they become in the last two books. I believe he conceived them as a religious order from the beginning. I'd think the rest of it wasn't conceived until he was working on Heretics.

I don't see any of their 'dirty' meddling in Hwee or Malky. They are much too human and honest. Very different then Scytale's plotting, the wheels within wheels and betrayals and deceptions. But like I said in my earlier comments the books leave it open to your imagination. If you think the technology mentioned includes cloning and their knowledge of good and evil archetypes they don't contradict. I don't think there's anything to the Ixian plot but no-room technology, selective breeding, caution, and a few thousand years to experiment. Seduction is the oldest and simplest political tool. Exactly the kind of thing mortal humans like the Ixians would come up with.

As to being able to read everybody's thoughts.


The easiest way for him to 'know what someone will say before they say it', reading thoughts, is to look a few minutes ahead in the conversation. It's impossible to deceive someone who knows not only what you're going to say before you say it, but also how many grandchildren you'll have and what color their hair will be. Crazy crazy powers.

Taking another Alan Watts saying (and my that must be getting over-familiar now from me) "the way the world actually is, is an amazingly complex inter-related system". As to the prohibition on Leto seeing things 'related to his death'..where does the division between 'directly related to his demise' and 'not' begin and the other leave off? If we build these gradations with our own consciousness, is Leto's blind spot about his own death self-imposed?


Yep it would be very tempting and very dangerous for Leto to start following threads. 'Blind spot' doesn't really do it justice. Are the threads more like hot wires? Shows how primitive and undeveloped we are with these clumsy analogies..

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xcalibur
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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby xcalibur » 20 Mar 2019 09:35

you shouldn't assume that every capable character is a KH, that status is quite rare and difficult to attain.

there's a line that comments on how ironic it is that the Ixians, masters of machines, are attacking Leto II with flesh.

for his part, Leto II knows she's a trap, but he doesn't care.

I'd assume there's a difference in cost & scale between no-rooms and no-globes. the no-room must've been a significant expense for Ix, but not to the point of breaking their bank. as Leto II emphatically points out, the Harkonnens were spice hoarders, which must be why they invested so heavily in no-tech. I guess their plan was to accumulate enough melange and keep it hidden from the god-emperor until they could break the monopoly.
Fremen : Museum Fremen :: Frank : Brian & Kevin

the rev
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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby the rev » 20 Mar 2019 16:20

you shouldn't assume that every capable character is a KH, that status is quite rare and difficult to attain.


I read that KJ is petitioning the director of the new film to make Jean Luc Picard's dog a KH.

By GEoD are KHs relevant? The concept was very important in the first book but became less and less so as the series continued. The GE has surpassed what the BG were originally creating, both in himself and with his breeding program, to the point a plain old KH seems obsolete. Just make it a title for the Emperor of the Universe, like how czar evolved out of Caesar.

istaivan
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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby istaivan » 20 Mar 2019 21:27

the rev wrote:
By GEoD are KHs relevant? The concept was very important in the first book but became less and less so as the series continued. The GE has surpassed what the BG were originally creating, both in himself and with his breeding program, to the point a plain old KH seems obsolete. Just make it a title for the Emperor of the Universe, like how czar evolved out of Caesar.


Bellonda thinks it's relevant. She only tried to kill Duncan in Chapterhouse:Dune for it. But then it could be well-stated that the idea of a KH has evolved by the early 15200's in ways to the point that what Bellonda really means by the shorthand of 'KH' actually is 'the idea of KH we had in 10191 + Great Mother knows what else the BT have done to Duncan in terms of modification'. Which could be as much of a departure as Leto II was. Just differently.
Mmm-ah.

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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby pcqypcqy » 20 Mar 2019 22:51

istaivan wrote:Or: Malky is a virtual prisoner inside the physical confines of that No-Room for 26 years. Until the Fish Speakers bodily drag him out. And it does sort of feel that way when there is discussion about how long it's been just generally since Malky was 'recalled' by his government and stopped being ambassador. Frank does give a sense it's been a number of years.

Or: They do things in such away that they are conditioned not to -remember- what happened in the No-Room. And Malky sees ten beelion Fish Speakers swarming outside his HQ and says, 'oh well i'll be seeing Leto again shortly, I may as well read the file on what we did and 'reacquaint' myself with what occurred.'

Or: it's not a 'brainwashing to forget' but the Tleilaxu and Ixians compartmentalize things so well that even though Malky is generally overseeing the project (and possibly contributing genetic material) he truly doesn't know one way or the other the limits of what the Tleilaxu were giving them in terms of technological advice or not, and is just spinning a yarn for Leto. Because Leto can read them 5 seconds -before- they step into the No-Room too, so how do you not leave a big long trail leading into the no-room from -that- direction. That's a whole other mess.


This reminded me a little of the explanation of the BG relationship with the Jews in Chapterhouse - knowledge so secret you don't even let yourself know that you know it, until you need to.


I also imagined it wasn't a 'room', but a 'complex'. Obviously Malky had to live in there for a period of time, and Hwi was raised and trained their presumably.

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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Postby istaivan » 21 Mar 2019 01:25

Re-listened to Watts Wave 2, caught my clumsy paraphrasing. Alan said inter-related organism, not system.
Doubt it affects anything else in the thread, just cleaning up.
Original post edited.
--D