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Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Posted: 20 Jun 2018 10:13
by georgiedenbro
Freakzilla wrote:I forgot about that one. I suppose he could have been and Hwi was an improvement on that design.


The BT were always clever, but I wonder how they ever came up with a way to create someone who could become a boon companion to Leto II. Interesting to note that they more or less used the same trick to ensnare Leto II as they used for Paul.

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Posted: 20 Jun 2018 15:47
by Naib
georgiedenbro wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I forgot about that one. I suppose he could have been and Hwi was an improvement on that design.


The BT were always clever, but I wonder how they ever came up with a way to create someone who could become a boon companion to Leto II. Interesting to note that they more or less used the same trick to ensnare Leto II as they used for Paul.


3,500 years of observation and repetition, perhaps?

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Posted: 24 Jun 2018 22:57
by pcqypcqy
georgiedenbro wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I forgot about that one. I suppose he could have been and Hwi was an improvement on that design.


The BT were always clever, but I wonder how they ever came up with a way to create someone who could become a boon companion to Leto II. Interesting to note that they more or less used the same trick to ensnare Leto II as they used for Paul.


I didn't think the BT had much to do with it, other than giving the Ixians the technology?



Code: Select all

"I . . . ahhh..." Moneo chewed at his upper lip. "The Tleilaxu have been quite
garrulous in the attempt to ingratiate themselves with me."
"Of course they have. And what have they revealed?"
"They... ahhh, provided the lxians with sufficient advice and equipment to make
a . . . uhhh, not exactly a ghola, and not even a clone. Perhaps we should use
the Tleilaxu term: a cellular restructuring. The . . . ahhh, experiment was
conducted within some sort of shielding device which the Guildsmen assured them
your powers could not penetrate."
"And the result?" Leto felt that he was asking the question in a cold vacuum.
"They are not certain. Tleilaxu were not permitted to witness. However, they did
observe that Malky entered this . . . ahhh, chamber and that he emerged later
with an infant."
"Yes! I know!"
"You do?" Moneo was puzzled.
"By inference. And all of this happened some twenty-six years ago?"
"That is correct, Lord."
"They identify the infant as Hwi Noree?"
"They are not certain, Lord, but..." Moneo shrugged.
"Of course. And what do you deduce from this, Moneo?"
"There is a deep purpose built into the new Ixian Ambassador."
"Certainly there is. Moneo, has it not struck you as odd how much Hwi, the
gentle Hwi, represents a mirror of the redoubtable Malky? His opposite in
everything, including sex."


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"Nobody tells the truth," Malky husked.
"You often told me the truth," Leto said. "Even when you didn't know it."
"That's because you're cleverer than the rest of us."
"Will you tell me about Hwi?"
"I think you already know it."
"I want to hear it from you," Leto said. "Did you get help from the Tleilaxu?"
"They gave us knowledge, nothing more. Everything else we did for ourselves."
"I thought it was not the Tleilaxus' doing."
Moneo could no longer contain his curiosity. "Lord, what is this of Hwi and
Tleilaxu? Why do you..."

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Posted: 25 Jun 2018 09:05
by Freakzilla
Obviously Malky was genetically engineered but maybe not specifically to charm/befriend Leto. That could have been an unexpected result and from that they got the idea for Hwi.

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Posted: 26 Jun 2018 09:56
by georgiedenbro
I'm hesitant to accept that the BT only gave the Ixians technology and the Ixians did all the rest, only because later on we learn that the BT have completely infiltrated and perhaps even taken over the Ixians. Maybe that just happens after the events in question in which Hwi is made. But maybe the BT had been allowing the Ixians to believe they were in control the whole time, until the BT were ready to unveil themselves and reveal that they'd been controlling things all along. After all, the Ixians might well think they had control of their environment whether or not they really did. It's not like they could tell the difference unless they had RM's working with them, which I doubt. I also say this because the taking down of Leto II too closely resembles the taking down of Paul for it not have been devised by the BT one way or another. Maybe they let the Ixians execute the plan only to avoid exposure if things went south, so the Ixians could take the heat for it.

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Posted: 26 Jun 2018 21:31
by pcqypcqy
georgiedenbro wrote:I'm hesitant to accept that the BT only gave the Ixians technology and the Ixians did all the rest, only because later on we learn that the BT have completely infiltrated and perhaps even taken over the Ixians. Maybe that just happens after the events in question in which Hwi is made. But maybe the BT had been allowing the Ixians to believe they were in control the whole time, until the BT were ready to unveil themselves and reveal that they'd been controlling things all along. After all, the Ixians might well think they had control of their environment whether or not they really did. It's not like they could tell the difference unless they had RM's working with them, which I doubt. I also say this because the taking down of Leto II too closely resembles the taking down of Paul for it not have been devised by the BT one way or another. Maybe they let the Ixians execute the plan only to avoid exposure if things went south, so the Ixians could take the heat for it.


I'll be honest, I've never really considered this. It takes a bit of reading between the lines, but I can see where you're coming from.

My only thought against it is: wouldn't Leto have known all of this? He seems to accept Malky's word on the matter towards the end when he's brought to Arrakis. Surely Leto would be able to see through this.

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Posted: 27 Jun 2018 10:23
by georgiedenbro
pcqypcqy wrote:My only thought against it is: wouldn't Leto have known all of this? He seems to accept Malky's word on the matter towards the end when he's brought to Arrakis. Surely Leto would be able to see through this.


I'm not sure how important it is to the story whether we assume Leto believes him or not. And even if he does it only means he believes Malky is telling the truth, not that Malky is correct. Either way it seems weird to me that the Ixians of all people should be conspiring against Leto, especially when he's apparently been financing their research into the INM. Altogether it seems too subtle a plan for a machine-minded people interested only in profits to come up with or risk doing. Maybe they wanted revenge for Leto scrapping their self-improving hunter seeker program :techie-hal:

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Posted: 29 Jun 2018 21:41
by Freakzilla
I entire Ixian embassy at Onn was replaced with face dancers and Hwi didn't even notice. Leto relied on RM Antiac to verify this. Leto only used prescience when absolutely necessary or to ensure the GP continued. However, Leto seemed to consider the BT fools and didn't consider them a serious threat.

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Posted: 29 Jun 2018 21:56
by pcqypcqy
georgiedenbro wrote:
pcqypcqy wrote:My only thought against it is: wouldn't Leto have known all of this? He seems to accept Malky's word on the matter towards the end when he's brought to Arrakis. Surely Leto would be able to see through this.


I'm not sure how important it is to the story whether we assume Leto believes him or not. And even if he does it only means he believes Malky is telling the truth, not that Malky is correct. Either way it seems weird to me that the Ixians of all people should be conspiring against Leto, especially when he's apparently been financing their research into the INM. Altogether it seems too subtle a plan for a machine-minded people interested only in profits to come up with or risk doing. Maybe they wanted revenge for Leto scrapping their self-improving hunter seeker program :techie-hal:


True enough. Not sure about the revenge motive, but everything else is quite interesting.

But I guess Leto being a Tyrant, everyone had some sort of motive for trying to de-throne him.

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Posted: 01 Jul 2018 16:24
by distrans
its a mistake to belive that seducing the emperor was an ability built above and beyond suscessfully administering the embassy on rakis

she was a specific tool wielded by ix independent of their official presence on the planet

wholey independant of that duty

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Posted: 03 Jul 2018 09:22
by georgiedenbro
distrans wrote:its a mistake to belive that seducing the emperor was an ability built above and beyond suscessfully administering the embassy on rakis


Do you mean to say that the only way to administer the embassy was to seduce the Emperor?

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Posted: 03 Jul 2018 19:57
by distrans
no
im saying it wouldnt enhance the seductress to know much about the administration of the embassy and I don't believe it was something she was at all trained to do to any degree other than figuratively

Re: MALKY WAS THE IXIAN KWISATZ HADERACH!

Posted: 04 Jul 2018 10:13
by georgiedenbro
distrans wrote:no
im saying it wouldnt enhance the seductress to know much about the administration of the embassy and I don't believe it was something she was at all trained to do to any degree other than figuratively


I think we can take it for granted that she and Malky were intelligent enough to both be able to do what they were meant to do (to Leto) and to maintain a diplomatic function as well.