• Register
  • Login
  •          

    2.5 Million Planets

    Image
      Post your own creative writing

    Moderators: Omphalos, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ

    2.5 Million Planets

    Postby SandChigger » 20 Jan 2009 07:07

    That's about how big Leto's empire was. Near the end of his life, at least.

    I think I posted something about this long ago "Over There". The GP discussion reminded me we haven't discussed it here. (That I recall....)

    FH in GEoD wrote: Idaho lifted his right hand in acknowledgment. He was emerging into the open space now and the dimensions of this enclosed place awed him. He set his trained eyes the task of estimating the dimensions as he mounted to the ledge and guessed the hall to be at least eleven hundred meters on a side-a square with rounded corners. It was packed with women, and Idaho reminded himself that these were only the chosen representatives of the far scattered Fish Speaker regiments—three women from each planet. They stood now, their bodies pressed so closely together that Idaho doubted one of them could fall. They had left only a space about fifty meters wide along the ledge where Idaho now stopped and surveyed the scene. The faces looked up at him-faces, faces.

    Ignoring the "rounded corners" and open space mentioned towards the end, that's 1,210,000 square meters. If you assume six people (hunky women?) can stand in one square meter (that happens to be the figure they're using for crowd estimates at the Inauguration today), that gives 7,260,000 women. Assuming every planet in the Empire had a Fish Speaker regiment, three per planet gives at least 2,420,000 planets.

    Or nearly 2.5 million. ;)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
    User avatar
    SandChigger
    KJASF Ground Zero
     
    Posts: 14490
    Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
    Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"

    Postby inhuien » 20 Jan 2009 09:28

    That's a lot planets and cheers for doing t' sums.

    Anyone around here able to supply an estimate as to how many planets in our Galaxy are capable of supporting humans?
    Image
    User avatar
    inhuien
     
    Posts: 3629
    Joined: 09 Feb 2008 05:03
    Location: right here as in not (all) there

    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jan 2009 10:01

    I've often wondered about how the math from that scene would work out, thanks, SC.

    But a regiment is a very small force to manage a planet.

    In the US Army a platoon is like 30 guys, plotoons make up companies, battalions and then regiments which can be as strong as a few thousand.

    It'd be hard to control a city with a regiment.
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 17968
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Postby SandChigger » 20 Jan 2009 10:27

    But these are regiments of Lanthanian Fish Speakers, not wimpy 20th century Terran men. :P

    That leads to an interesting point, though: how big were the "big" cities on most planets in Leto's Empire? (How big was Onn in the Off season? :P ) Leto's proscriptions on technological innovation and forms of transportation would have influenced this....

    (Dune...love it, explore it! :D )
    User avatar
    SandChigger
    KJASF Ground Zero
     
    Posts: 14490
    Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
    Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"

    Postby dunepunk » 20 Jan 2009 11:14

    alternatively, a regimen could mean a much larger force (in numbers) by that time. With such a large population to control, the size of military groups could have increased proportionally.

    I'm also slow to accept the idea that the Sardaukar legions were strictly 1000 soldiers, as the term originally signified. I think the size of subdivisions may have swelled by the time of Dune.
    It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of sapho that the thoughts acquire speed; the lips aquire stains; the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
    dunepunk
     
    Posts: 60
    Joined: 16 Dec 2008 20:00

    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jan 2009 12:24

    SandChigger wrote:But these are regiments of Lanthanian Fish Speakers, not wimpy 20th century Terran men. :P

    That leads to an interesting point, though: how big were the "big" cities on most planets in Leto's Empire? (How big was Onn in the Off season? :P ) Leto's proscriptions on technological innovation and forms of transportation would have influenced this....

    (Dune...love it, explore it! :D )


    I believe Onn was practically deserted between festivals but the Fish Speaker schools and government residences were there. I imagine most places are very rural. I can't image much industry goes on when the only means of transportation are by 'thopter or foot. Maybe the scale of manufacturing has been reduced to a much more local level. That seems in line with FH's eco-thinking.
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 17968
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jan 2009 12:29

    dunepunk wrote:alternatively, a regimen could mean a much larger force (in numbers) by that time. With such a large population to control, the size of military groups could have increased proportionally.

    I'm also slow to accept the idea that the Sardaukar legions were strictly 1000 soldiers, as the term originally signified. I think the size of subdivisions may have swelled by the time of Dune.


    legion

    1. a division of the Roman army, usually comprising 3000 to 6000 soldiers.
    4. any large group of armed men.


    ~Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 17968
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Postby dunepunk » 20 Jan 2009 14:40

    Freakzilla wrote:
    dunepunk wrote:alternatively, a regimen could mean a much larger force (in numbers) by that time. With such a large population to control, the size of military groups could have increased proportionally.

    I'm also slow to accept the idea that the Sardaukar legions were strictly 1000 soldiers, as the term originally signified. I think the size of subdivisions may have swelled by the time of Dune.


    legion

    1. a division of the Roman army, usually comprising 3000 to 6000 soldiers.
    4. any large group of armed men.


    ~Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.


    granted. By the end of the Roman Empire, a legion was larger than 1000 soldiers, but originally the term applied to 1000 soldiers strictly (unless I've completely lost my memory of Roman history). I was just using the term as an example of a division of military that had shifted meaning to apply to a larger number of soldiers than it had originally signified.
    It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of sapho that the thoughts acquire speed; the lips aquire stains; the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
    dunepunk
     
    Posts: 60
    Joined: 16 Dec 2008 20:00

    Postby SandChigger » 20 Jan 2009 15:48

    (Freak, you forgot them six-legged horses. What were they called again? ;) )
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
    User avatar
    SandChigger
    KJASF Ground Zero
     
    Posts: 14490
    Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
    Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"

    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jan 2009 15:54

    SandChigger wrote:(Freak, you forgot them six-legged horses. What were they called again? ;) )


    Oh yeah, thorses. Giddyap!
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 17968
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 20 Jan 2009 17:30

    inhuien wrote:That's a lot planets and cheers for doing t' sums.

    Anyone around here able to supply an estimate as to how many planets in our Galaxy are capable of supporting humans?


    Until now, only the planet Earth.
    But the astronomers estimate a number that would never pass over a hundred thousand, I think. I will try to find some sources. :)
    The singular multiplicity of this universe draws my deepest attention. It is a thing of ultimate beauty.

    -- The Stolen Journals

    User avatar
    Lisan Al-Gaib
     
    Posts: 418
    Joined: 11 Feb 2008 15:34
    Location: In the Heart of My Religion.

    Re: 2.5 Million Planets

    Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 20 Jan 2009 17:35

    SandChigger wrote:That's about how big Leto's empire was. Near the end of his life, at least.

    I think I posted something about this long ago "Over There". The GP discussion reminded me we haven't discussed it here. (That I recall....)

    FH in GEoD wrote: Idaho lifted his right hand in acknowledgment. He was emerging into the open space now and the dimensions of this enclosed place awed him. He set his trained eyes the task of estimating the dimensions as he mounted to the ledge and guessed the hall to be at least eleven hundred meters on a side-a square with rounded corners. It was packed with women, and Idaho reminded himself that these were only the chosen representatives of the far scattered Fish Speaker regiments—three women from each planet. They stood now, their bodies pressed so closely together that Idaho doubted one of them could fall. They had left only a space about fifty meters wide along the ledge where Idaho now stopped and surveyed the scene. The faces looked up at him-faces, faces.

    Ignoring the "rounded corners" and open space mentioned towards the end, that's 1,210,000 square meters. If you assume six people (hunky women?) can stand in one square meter (that happens to be the figure they're using for crowd estimates at the Inauguration today), that gives 7,260,000 women. Assuming every planet in the Empire had a Fish Speaker regiment, three per planet gives at least 2,420,000 planets.

    Or nearly 2.5 million. ;)



    Nice catch, Chig!

    One more number to our better understanding of the Duniverse!

    Well, now we can have a idea of the evolution of the human scattering through the universe.

    just after the BJ: ~13.000
    During the Muad'dib: ~1.000.000?
    Just before the end of Leto's Empire: ~2.500.000
    The singular multiplicity of this universe draws my deepest attention. It is a thing of ultimate beauty.

    -- The Stolen Journals

    User avatar
    Lisan Al-Gaib
     
    Posts: 418
    Joined: 11 Feb 2008 15:34
    Location: In the Heart of My Religion.

    Postby Shadout » 20 Jan 2009 21:51

    Those 2.500.000 would supposedly be planets with settlements on them, whereas I always understood the 1 million planets refered to in early Dune books, simply as planets the empire had explored, even those who couldn't sustain life.

    Another thing however, maybe im not thinking clear because its late here, and missing something, but Leto cant have 3 from all planets settled by humans, since he dont know, or dont want to know maybe, where all has spread out. Its only from his 'old empire', e.g. not a total for the human scattering.
    So the actual number of planets settled by humans would be a lot higher (and growing exponentially after his death of course).

    About how many planets which could sustain human life, I think you can find wildly different numbers from scientists. It depends what you look for. If you look for sustainable planets, as in Earth-like, which can support billions of humans, then its probably very low. But if you include any planet smaller human settlements could survive on, it would get much higher I bet.
    Not like Dune itself is a good example of an Earth-like planet. Got the right atmosphere, but not much else.
    Shadout
     
    Posts: 28
    Joined: 10 Feb 2008 13:55

    Postby dunepunk » 20 Jan 2009 22:35

    Shadout wrote:Those 2.500.000 would supposedly be planets with settlements on them, whereas I always understood the 1 million planets refered to in early Dune books, simply as planets the empire had explored, even those who couldn't sustain life.

    Another thing however, maybe im not thinking clear because its late here, and missing something, but Leto cant have 3 from all planets settled by humans, since he dont know, or dont want to know maybe, where all has spread out. Its only from his 'old empire', e.g. not a total for the human scattering.
    So the actual number of planets settled by humans would be a lot higher (and growing exponentially after his death of course).


    I was under the impression that Leto's empire included all inhabited planets at the time. Remember Ix's attempts to set up colonies and how Leto chastised them for the attempt? During his reign he prevented expansion. He was trying to stifle the human desire to expand so that when he was gone people would explode with the accumulated frustration of thousands of years of enforced stagnation. So I think the math holds up pretty well as a general estimate.
    It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of sapho that the thoughts acquire speed; the lips aquire stains; the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
    dunepunk
     
    Posts: 60
    Joined: 16 Dec 2008 20:00

    Postby SandChigger » 20 Jan 2009 23:04

    Shadout wrote:Those 2.500.000 would supposedly be planets with settlements on them, whereas I always understood the 1 million planets refered to in early Dune books, simply as planets the empire had explored, even those who couldn't sustain life.

    Specifically, planets with Fish Speaker regiments on them. If there were planets without such regiments, they wouldn't be represented. Hence "at least". ;)

    And there is no reference to "1 million planets" in any of the books other than Chapterhouse. (Unless by "early Dune books" you mean the heretical fan fictions penned by The (Hiking) Hack and The (Former?) Drunk? Those don't count in serious discussions. ;) )


    (If he had stifled the desire to expand, dunepunk, there wouldn't have been frustration. It's more that he thwarted or blocked the expression of the desire. ;) )
    User avatar
    SandChigger
    KJASF Ground Zero
     
    Posts: 14490
    Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
    Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"

    Postby GamePlayer » 21 Jan 2009 00:44

    That is fantastic! I've always loved the numbers when it comes to fictional constructs. So the Empire is 2.5 million worlds and the early Imperium, I guess around the time just prior to Muad'dib was the million the book mentioned earlier. Cool stuff.
    "They can chew you up, but they gotta spit you out."
    User avatar
    GamePlayer
    70mm God
     
    Posts: 2993
    Joined: 09 Feb 2008 11:26
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

    Postby SandChigger » 21 Jan 2009 01:02

    But it's not really that simple.... ;)

    The phrase "Million Planets" is used by the HMs and others returning from The Scattering. So it doesn't quite jibe with Leto's pre-Scattering Empire being bigger, does it?

    Maybe it was an old, fixed expression?

    Or maybe it just indicated the worlds that constituted the (Old) Empire in that part of the galaxy?

    Curiouser and curioser.... :D
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
    User avatar
    SandChigger
    KJASF Ground Zero
     
    Posts: 14490
    Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
    Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"

    Postby GamePlayer » 21 Jan 2009 13:53

    Well, given that the Milky Way Galaxy is some 200-400 billion stars, even if only a tiny percentage featured habitable worlds, 2.5 million planets still isn't that many worlds for a galaxy spanning empire. If the Empire was multi-galactic, it'd be even more curiouser :)
    "They can chew you up, but they gotta spit you out."
    User avatar
    GamePlayer
    70mm God
     
    Posts: 2993
    Joined: 09 Feb 2008 11:26
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

    Postby Freakzilla » 21 Jan 2009 14:01

    2.5M was a MINIMUM from his calculations, I believe.

    Hell, there's pobably a dozen inhabited, technoligically advanced civilizations in the Milky Way now!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 17968
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 21 Jan 2009 14:40

    GamePlayer wrote:Well, given that the Milky Way Galaxy is some 200-400 billion stars, even if only a tiny percentage featured habitable worlds, 2.5 million planets still isn't that many worlds for a galaxy spanning empire. If the Empire was multi-galactic, it'd be even more curiouser :)


    What matters is not the total number of stars, but the number of those star that have Stability, a long life-time, planets, habitable planets and so go on.
    The singular multiplicity of this universe draws my deepest attention. It is a thing of ultimate beauty.

    -- The Stolen Journals

    User avatar
    Lisan Al-Gaib
     
    Posts: 418
    Joined: 11 Feb 2008 15:34
    Location: In the Heart of My Religion.

    Postby Freakzilla » 21 Jan 2009 14:47

    Baraka Bryan wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:2.5M was a MINIMUM from his calculations, I believe.

    Hell, there's pobably a dozen inhabited, technoligically advanced civilizations in the Milky Way now!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation


    Image


    :lol:

    Which part of the equation do you think is bullshit?

    Or are you just so arrogant as to think we're the only intelligent life out of 500 billion stars in our galaxy alone?
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 17968
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Postby Freakzilla » 21 Jan 2009 15:16

    Baraka Bryan wrote:oh i have no thoughts on the legitimacy of drake's claims... just thought a thread talking about his formula wouldn't be complete without some XKCD :P

    i figure by the time we find out definitively whether or not there is other intelligent life out there, i'll be long dead, so why worry about it


    On the other hand aliens could be invading right now with plans of enslaving you as livestock.

    I guess either way you're going to die, so who cares.
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 17968
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 21 Jan 2009 15:22

    Shadout wrote:Those 2.500.000 would supposedly be planets with settlements on them, whereas I always understood the 1 million planets refered to in early Dune books, simply as planets the empire had explored, even those who couldn't sustain life.

    Another thing however, maybe im not thinking clear because its late here, and missing something, but Leto cant have 3 from all planets settled by humans, since he dont know, or dont want to know maybe, where all has spread out. Its only from his 'old empire', e.g. not a total for the human scattering.So the actual number of planets settled by humans would be a lot higher (and growing exponentially after his death of course).

    About how many planets which could sustain human life, I think you can find wildly different numbers from scientists. It depends what you look for. If you look for sustainable planets, as in Earth-like, which can support billions of humans, then its probably very low. But if you include any planet smaller human settlements could survive on, it would get much higher I bet.
    Not like Dune itself is a good example of an Earth-like planet. Got the right atmosphere, but not much else.


    Answering the underlined question (I don't think anyone has yet, sorry if so): the Scattering took place AFTER Leto's reign, not during.
    Image
    User avatar
    A Thing of Eternity
     
    Posts: 6090
    Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
    Location: Calgary Alberta

    Postby mrpsbrk » 21 Jan 2009 21:30

    Baraka Bryan wrote:i figure by the time we find out definitively whether or not there is other intelligent life out there, i'll be long dead, so why worry about it


    Best argument in ANY discussion about aliens.

    On the other hand aliens could be invading right now with plans of enslaving you as livestock.


    Well, since we are all mathemagical around here: time humans have been language-users = 100,000 years, estimating i'll live to be 100, which to me is already too much, and since alien enslavement hasn't happened up till now, it is reasonable to expect a chance of alien invasion in the league of 1/1,000 -- much smaller than cancer or traffic accident. So... why really care?
    Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)
    User avatar
    mrpsbrk
     
    Posts: 158
    Joined: 20 Dec 2008 11:08
    Location: Brazil

    Postby mrpsbrk » 21 Jan 2009 21:47

    Freakzilla wrote:Which part of the equation do you think is bullshit?

    Or are you just so arrogant as to think we're the only intelligent life out of 500 billion stars in our galaxy alone?


    To me, the part that is bullshit is that, since NO alien encounters have been reported yet, which implies that we know NOTHING of alien-life-development, this equation has at least 3 factors that we have no condition whatsoever to fill. It might provide at best no data, and at worst an illusion of comprehension, so...

    And about being arrogant to believe us to be the only intelligent life... i suppose it assumes i am saying that "intelligence" a value-judgement (a morally good thing), which i do not, at least not when such "triffle" factors as galaxy-distances are involved...

    I mean, come on, no matter how much more you think interstellar transportation might evolve... alien-enslavement can't be such a good business! The costs are way too high -- and once they stop being so, the technology is already providing you better things than alien slaves...

    And since aliens are likely to be such bores are humans are, the entertainment value ("to reach a kindred race blah nlah blah") can't be worth it also ;-)
    Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)
    User avatar
    mrpsbrk
     
    Posts: 158
    Joined: 20 Dec 2008 11:08
    Location: Brazil

    Next

    Return to ˲

    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest