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    Postby SandChigger » 21 Jan 2009 22:53

    There's a difference between arguing that any specific value assigned to a particular term in the equation is bullshit, given our current ignorance (or, looked at another way, limited knowledge of only one example) and arguing that inclusion of a particular term in the equation, or the whole equation itself, is bullshit.

    I'm just seeing the former here.


    Anyway, the under 2.5 million estimate is just a rough minimum arrived at based on what FH wrote in GEoD. I assume that those worlds were spread over star systems in more than one galaxy. I do not assume that any one galaxy (our Milky Way for example, for starters) had to have been completely explored or every habitable planet colonized before people headed off for another. (Leto never tells us how many galaxies he meant by "multigalactic", but assuming that even Guild explorers did not "do a Duncan" and simply input random destinations and instead plotted courses for places they could see [linear thinking, remember!], the two Magellanic Clouds and Andromeda are prime initial candidates for colonization, no?)
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    Postby mrpsbrk » 22 Jan 2009 13:38

    SandChigger wrote:There's a difference between arguing that any specific value assigned to a particular term in the equation is bullshit, given our current ignorance (or, looked at another way, limited knowledge of only one example) and arguing that inclusion of a particular term in the equation, or the whole equation itself, is bullshit.

    I'm just seeing the former here.


    OK, maybe bullshit is too strong a word, but remember that it was used by a comedian in a web-comic, so...

    Anyway, i do appreciate the effort to try to pierce the question even in face of complete lack of data, but it baffles me that they treat life as a maths problem, you know? Like, it doesn't even hint at the doubt that maybe just maybe we could encounter something "out there" that defies our definitions... But, really, that is besides the point, i guess the "planets" in Leto's domain are not radio-communicating-civilizations, but actually just rocks that happened to be inhabitable, or something.
    Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)
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    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Jan 2009 13:43

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:There's a difference between arguing that any specific value assigned to a particular term in the equation is bullshit, given our current ignorance (or, looked at another way, limited knowledge of only one example) and arguing that inclusion of a particular term in the equation, or the whole equation itself, is bullshit.

    I'm just seeing the former here.


    OK, maybe bullshit is too strong a word, but remember that it was used by a comedian in a web-comic, so...

    Anyway, i do appreciate the effort to try to pierce the question even in face of complete lack of data, but it baffles me that they treat life as a maths problem, you know? Like, it doesn't even hint at the doubt that maybe just maybe we could encounter something "out there" that defies our definitions... But, really, that is besides the point, i guess the "planets" in Leto's domain are not radio-communicating-civilizations, but actually just rocks that happened to be inhabitable, or something.


    There is no interstellar communication in Dune. Communication between planets is done by courier through the Spacing Guild.
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    Postby Schu » 22 Jan 2009 13:44

    Are we really going to read that much into the mathematics of someone that wrote "How long does a human live? A million minutes? I've already experienced almost that many days" in GEoD? :P

    (A million minutes is just under 2 years. A million hours might have been more appropriate.)
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    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Jan 2009 13:48

    Schu wrote:Are we really going to read that much into the mathematics of someone that wrote "How long does a human live? A million minutes? I've already experienced almost that many days" in GEoD? :P

    (A million minutes is just under 2 years. A million hours might have been more appropriate.)


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    Postby SandChigger » 22 Jan 2009 15:03

    I don't know, I take a bit of inspiration from it: as smart and talented a writer as Frank Herbert was, he appears to have been seriously math-fucked. :P

    Besides ... TELL me the image of 7,260,000 women crammed in a square kilometer isn't HAWT. That old lech! :lol:
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    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Jan 2009 15:11

    SandChigger wrote:I don't know, I take a bit of inspiration from it: as smart and talented a writer as Frank Herbert was, he appears to have been seriously math-fucked. :P

    Besides ... TELL me the image of 7,260,000 women crammed in a square kilometer isn't HAWT. That old lech! :lol:


    Depends, do they look like Siona or Nayla?

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    Postby SandChigger » 22 Jan 2009 15:16

    mrpsbrk wrote:Anyway, i do appreciate the effort to try to pierce the question even in face of complete lack of data, but it baffles me that they treat life as a maths problem, you know?

    I can't imagine how to treat a question of probability other than as a math problem. ;)

    Like, it doesn't even hint at the doubt that maybe just maybe we could encounter something "out there" that defies our definitions...

    It has been a while since I've read anything about it, so I may be misremembering, but I don't believe Drake's original work used a Terra/carbo-centric definition of "life".

    But, really, that is besides the point, i guess the "planets" in Leto's domain are not radio-communicating-civilizations, but actually just rocks that happened to be inhabitable, or something.

    Right. Because there are no known intelligent aliens in the Duniverse.
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby GamePlayer » 22 Jan 2009 17:09

    It's not unheard of for writers to provide readers just enough information to figure something out on their own without supplying the final answer. I do find it odd the dimensions were provided so specifically. Why even use any specific, numbered dimensions at all? Why not a "massive, grand hall"? Perhaps this analysis is "over thinking it", but I don't think it's all that much of a stretch.
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    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Jan 2009 17:17

    GamePlayer wrote:It's not unheard of for writers to provide readers just enough information to figure something out on their own without supplying the final answer. I do find it odd the dimensions were provided so specifically. Why even use any specific, numbered dimensions at all? Why not a "massive, grand hall"? Perhaps this analysis is "over thinking it", but I don't think it's all that much of a stretch.


    FH did that with a lot of spaces IIRC. Like the square in Arrakeen or the doors to Paul's audience chamber.
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    Postby Schu » 22 Jan 2009 20:14

    SandChigger wrote:Besides ... TELL me the image of 7,260,000 women crammed in a square kilometer isn't HAWT. That old lech! :lol:


    He did it again in C: D with the HM.
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    Postby Shadout » 22 Jan 2009 23:50

    SandChigger wrote:And there is no reference to "1 million planets" in any of the books other than Chapterhouse. (Unless by "early Dune books" you mean the heretical fan fictions penned by The (Hiking) Hack and The (Former?) Drunk? Those don't count in serious discussions. ;)

    Haha, sorry, there really isnt? I thought there was.
    Sorry about that :P
    The bastards are ruining my memories too :( need to reread the classic series to wash some of the taint away.
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    Postby SandChigger » 23 Jan 2009 04:14

    Between the shit books and Lynch movie and two SciFi mini-series, you have to watch yourself! I do, at least. :D
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby Ghost » 23 Jan 2009 04:37

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Depends, do they look like Siona or Nayla?

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    Well, you know, i preffer Dame Irti :lol:
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    Postby Freakzilla » 23 Jan 2009 09:42

    Shadout wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:And there is no reference to "1 million planets" in any of the books other than Chapterhouse. (Unless by "early Dune books" you mean the heretical fan fictions penned by The (Hiking) Hack and The (Former?) Drunk? Those don't count in serious discussions. ;)

    Haha, sorry, there really isnt? I thought there was.
    Sorry about that :P
    The bastards are ruining my memories too :( need to reread the classic series to wash some of the taint away.


    The Spider Queen put a hand to her forgettable chin. "You may call me Dama."
    The companion objected. "This is the last enemy in the Million Planets!"
    So that's how they think of the Old Empire.

    ...

    Yet, in her own way, she is trying to bargain. She displays her mechanical
    marvels, her powers, her wealth. No offer of alliance. Be willing servants,
    witches, our slaves, and we will forgive much . To gain the last of the Million
    Planets
    ? More than that, certainly, but an interesting number.

    ...

    Were Honored Matres that confident of their vengeful legions? Possible only if
    they had never before suffered a defeat of this kind. Yet someone had driven
    them back into the Old Empire. Into the Million Planets.

    ~Chapterhouse: Dune
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    Postby GamePlayer » 24 Jan 2009 17:39

    Freakzilla wrote:
    GamePlayer wrote:It's not unheard of for writers to provide readers just enough information to figure something out on their own without supplying the final answer. I do find it odd the dimensions were provided so specifically. Why even use any specific, numbered dimensions at all? Why not a "massive, grand hall"? Perhaps this analysis is "over thinking it", but I don't think it's all that much of a stretch.


    FH did that with a lot of spaces IIRC. Like the square in Arrakeen or the doors to Paul's audience chamber.


    Weird. Okay, so maybe we are over thinking :)
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    Postby SandChigger » 24 Jan 2009 19:22

    :wink:

    But, if on an off chance he actually did get the math stuff right for once, that's what it would be. :lol:
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby Shadout » 25 Jan 2009 00:33

    Yeah, Sandchigger mentioned that 1 Million number too, but that may be from Letos reign, and thus not resembling the size of the 'old old empire' = pre-Leto.
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    Postby GamePlayer » 26 Jan 2009 15:53

    Wait a minute...
    Were we not working from the assumption that the old empire was smaller than Leto's in another thread? We were discussing the "multi-galactic" thing and the argument came about that Leto's empire was bigger. Now we're assuming old empire = 2.5 million while Leto empire = 1 million? Or are we on two unrelated analytical paths that just happen to contradict each other? :?
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    Postby SandChigger » 26 Jan 2009 17:50

    Well, I can only speak for myself, but these are my assumptions and conclusions, in both threads:

    1. The Old Empire was smaller than Leto's.

    2. We have no idea how many planets/systems comprised the Old Empire, but the name "Million Planets" used by Scattering humans is suggestive. It is not known, however, if the name refers to all of the Old Empire, all of Leto's Empire, or simply that part of either located in the section of the Milky Way where the stories began.

    3. Leto's Empire was definitely spread over more than one galaxy. The Old Empire at the time of Dune may or may not have been. (I think not, simply because there is no clear statement to the effect that it was and based on other reasons discussed in the other thread. "May or may not" is my compromise position on this one. ;) )

    4. If there's any validity to the Fishspeaker meeting scene measurements and narrative, Leto's Empire must have included at least somewhere close to 2.5 million planets.

    I believe the above is consistent with the books, internally, and across the two threads, but I haven't reread the other thread. ;)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby Freakzilla » 26 Jan 2009 17:50

    Man, we derailed a long time ago...

    The "Old Empire" was called "The Million Planets" by the Honored Matres.
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    Postby GamePlayer » 26 Jan 2009 18:31

    Oh, okay, I was hazy on the chronology. I'm still only on Children so far.
    That analysis seems fine then. Actually, that works rather nicely. Well done!
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    Postby Freakzilla » 28 Jan 2009 11:04

    Baraka Bryan wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Man, we derailed a long time ago...

    The "Old Empire" was called "The Million Planets" by the Honored Matres.


    exactly, which would very probably been a catch-phrase without basis in reality..


    True, there were more than a million:

    Yet, in her own way, she is trying to bargain. She displays her mechanical
    marvels, her powers, her wealth. No offer of alliance. Be willing servants,
    witches, our slaves, and we will forgive much . To gain the last of the Million
    Planets? More than that, certainly, but an interesting number.

    ~RMS Odrade, CH:D
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    Re: 2.5 Million Planets

    Postby Skibum » 06 Jun 2009 12:43

    Another math extrapolation I've wanted to discuss is:

    In Heretics, someone (waff maybe?) says that the Honored Matres outnumber the BG by 10,000 to 1. When Rebecca brings the 'Lampadas Horde' to the BG, she says she has over 7,000,000 reverend mothers. This means, at the minimum, there are 7,000,00 RMs but we should expect many more. Lets call it 10,000,000 total. That would mean that only 3,000,000 other reverend mothers exist besides those on lampades, which I feel is a very conservative estimate given that 15 planets are destroyed before lampadas is, if Lampadas does actually have 7 million of them.

    Since the BG is not 100% reverend mothers, lets pretend that they are mostly reverend mothers, say 2/3 of them are.

    This means there is at least 15,000,000 BG

    And if the HM outnumber the BG by 10000 to 1 then there are at least....

    150 billion Honored Matres...

    Is that reasonable?
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    Re: 2.5 Million Planets

    Postby SandChigger » 06 Jun 2009 13:14

    Yeah, most of The Horde were OM spooks. :)
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