Siona and the Golden Path

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Is Siona the key for the GP?

Yes
17
63%
No
7
26%
What?
3
11%
 
Total votes: 27

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mrpsbrk
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Postby mrpsbrk » 26 Jan 2009 01:04

Sorry if i was disrespectful about anything, i do agree my reading of the things are very particular, i require no one to agree with me...

SandChigger wrote:You're the one who's hung up on finding THE ONE KEY. It was a dual deal. Invisibility to prescience ("untraceability") was one key. Physical dispersion (Scattering all over creation and back) was the other.


Actually, i did have the impression i begun that topic by saying that Siona's invisibility was not to be considered as important as i myself had done before -- and that this casts doubts about the GP having ONE KEY...

SandChigger wrote:And the Scattering couldn't begin until the Ixians had created the INMs.


And here you seem to be saying: THE ONE KEY to the GP is the INM. So, it is your thesis that the GP has ONE KEY, not mine.

I am just saying that i disagree.
Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)

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Freakzilla
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Postby Freakzilla » 26 Jan 2009 10:20

mrpsbrk wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:She may have been important in keeping the Old Empire intact with Duncan as The Scattering was taking place but I think The Scattering really started with RM Anteac's raid on IX, which scattered the INM and No-tech.

I think No-Tech and the Siona Gene were essentially the same thing. The GP would have succeeded with either one. But the INM was more critical.


But, Freak, wasn't humanity in this universe doing the go-out-to-the-stars trick before finding melange? Spice, as i recall, was just a safer way of exploring, not the only way, even before Paul.

If GP = Scattering, the only new ingredient Leto would have to add to the boil was people wanting to scatter, which arguably he could have done in less than 3,500 years since this is way more than any single individual timespan and by Siona's time already had had for aeons control enough over the environment to produce a longing for the stars...

Heck, if GP = Scattering, Leto could have just skipped the whole symbiosis thing, packed some 2 or 3 Fremem Legions, ransacked the Guild, and then said to each of his soldiers: RUN and do not EVER look back.

No, Leto had to teach some lessons before, and without those lessons a scattered humanity is just a scattered humanity, not a "golden" one.


The Scattering only ensures humankinds survival through numbers and distance. It doesn't account for the maturation of humankind. Siona's genes were more crucial to that.

I think he wanted to preserve the qualities of the KH but in a latent/subconscious state that served people more like advanced instincts. Other-Memory and prescience just below the surface.
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Postby mrpsbrk » 26 Jan 2009 11:31

Freakzilla wrote:I think he wanted to preserve the qualities of the KH but in a latent/subconscious state that served people more like advanced instincts. Other-Memory and prescience just below the surface.


Man, on the Siona-test 3 chapters, he is constantly trying to make her acknowledge whatever she knows even without knowing. He tries to make her remember the fremem desert survival skills, like closing her mouthpiece, without actually saying to her that she should close it. He is trying to make her conscious of her memories.
Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)

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Postby mrpsbrk » 26 Jan 2009 11:34

SandRider wrote:I'm detecting a Jesuit-training influence in the way you are formulating your arguments. It's a gift. And a hobby.


Who knows? Brazil was largely "cultivated" by Jesuits, so maybe, but i do not know anything about them, though...
Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)

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Postby Freakzilla » 26 Jan 2009 11:58

mrpsbrk wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I think he wanted to preserve the qualities of the KH but in a latent/subconscious state that served people more like advanced instincts. Other-Memory and prescience just below the surface.


Man, on the Siona-test 3 chapters, he is constantly trying to make her acknowledge whatever she knows even without knowing. He tries to make her remember the fremem desert survival skills, like closing her mouthpiece, without actually saying to her that she should close it. He is trying to make her conscious of her memories.


Notice also, after her test, Leto tells her that in the deep desert one direction is as good as another however she instictively chooses the right direction.

...A lesson thier bones will remember.
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Postby SandRider » 26 Jan 2009 13:03

I have no prejudice against the Jesuits or their Schools.
I just enjoy sniffing out Jesuit-educated people based on the
way they argue, or certain key words.

Did you attend Catholic schools ?
You're in University now ?
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mrpsbrk
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Postby mrpsbrk » 26 Jan 2009 13:29

SandRider wrote:I have no prejudice against the Jesuits or their Schools.
I just enjoy sniffing out Jesuit-educated people based on the
way they argue, or certain key words.

Did you attend Catholic schools ?
You're in University now ?


I did attend Catholic school, for 2 years. I have already finished (how to say that? graduated?) University.

Can i ask what is the way i argue? I find it extremely amusing to be pointed this thing. But maybe this is very off-topic...
Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)

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Postby SwordMaster » 26 Feb 2009 09:47

I voted yes, not based on her life as much as based on the children she had with Duncan. Would Sheeana have existed without Siona? Of course was the end result of the GP the scattering or was there more still? I for one feel that Frank had one more peice to the puzzle, and it has to do with Duncans visions at the end of CHoD

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Postby Tleilax Master B » 26 Feb 2009 09:54

The siona gene is just one aspect of the golden path. Obviously an important one, but the "key"? Not sure about that. The crucial result is spreading out humanity in such large numbers they could never be tracked down by any force (like the MACHINES!! :P ).

I would argue the Famine Times could be the "key"......
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Postby SwordMaster » 26 Feb 2009 10:08

key to the scattering was famine times, no doubt. i think a few things were in place a few keys. But I do not belive the GP was completed by Frank. Everything after CHoD is ...... not considered by me to be the true ending

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Postby Freakzilla » 26 Feb 2009 11:11

Baraka Bryan wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:key to the scattering was famine times, no doubt. i think a few things were in place a few keys. But I do not belive the GP was completed by Frank. Everything after CHoD is ...... not considered by me to be the true ending


someone post that attitude of the knife quote again ;)


Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife--chopping off what's incomplete and
saying: "Now, it's complete because it's ended here."
-from "Collected Sayings of, Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
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Postby Atreyuh » 26 Feb 2009 14:06

SwordMaster wrote:Everything after CHoD is ...... not the true ending


Fixed it for you!

:D

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Postby SwordMaster » 26 Feb 2009 14:36

Atreyuh wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:Everything after CHoD is ...... not the true ending


Fixed it for you!

:D


Thank you for fixing that. Im not even sure if BH and KJA understand the GP at all. Im fairly sure they dont and would rather not make their head hurt trying to.

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Postby Mandy » 26 Feb 2009 14:41

I don't think they care to understand. Making money, and having their names plastered on the cover of as many books as possible seem to be the only things they care about.
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hypatia approaches one.

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Postby SwordMaster » 26 Feb 2009 15:03

Mandy, are you into BSG? Its my all time favorite show and I basicly stop my entire life every ffriday night at 10. Its the best TV show ever.

And I think your right about the motives.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 26 Feb 2009 15:07

SwordMaster wrote:Mandy, are you into BSG? Its my all time favorite show and I basicly stop my entire life every ffriday night at 10. Its the best TV show ever.

And I think your right about the motives.


Ah, a BSG fan, since you're new here I'll reiterate my long standing warning/request. I have not seen anything past the first few episodes of Season 4, so until I buy the DVD I apreciate it if everyone keeps "who's the last cylon" type spoilers confined to threads marks with spoiler tags.

Or I kill you.
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Postby SwordMaster » 26 Feb 2009 15:14

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:Mandy, are you into BSG? Its my all time favorite show and I basicly stop my entire life every ffriday night at 10. Its the best TV show ever.

And I think your right about the motives.


Ah, a BSG fan, since you're new here I'll reiterate my long standing warning/request. I have not seen anything past the first few episodes of Season 4, so until I buy the DVD I apreciate it if everyone keeps "who's the last cylon" type spoilers confined to threads marks with spoiler tags.

Or I kill you.


dude I would not want to ruin it for you, I will tell you this though, its not LetoII. Sorry if that spoiled your current theory.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 26 Feb 2009 15:37

SwordMaster wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:Mandy, are you into BSG? Its my all time favorite show and I basicly stop my entire life every ffriday night at 10. Its the best TV show ever.

And I think your right about the motives.


Ah, a BSG fan, since you're new here I'll reiterate my long standing warning/request. I have not seen anything past the first few episodes of Season 4, so until I buy the DVD I apreciate it if everyone keeps "who's the last cylon" type spoilers confined to threads marks with spoiler tags.

Or I kill you.


dude I would not want to ruin it for you, I will tell you this though, its not LetoII. Sorry if that spoiled your current theory.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby Mandy » 26 Feb 2009 15:46

Hell yeah, I'm a BSG fan. Great show, usually.. of course there have been a few WTF episodes.
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hypatia approaches one.

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Postby SwordMaster » 26 Feb 2009 16:26

yah true a few WTF moments, but when Starbuck packs two pistols and dares people to follow her, I sort of jumped up and yelled " I EFFIN LOVE YOU STARBUCK"

My wife was not impressed

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Postby Tleszer » 26 Feb 2009 17:54

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
SwordMaster wrote:Mandy, are you into BSG? Its my all time favorite show and I basicly stop my entire life every ffriday night at 10. Its the best TV show ever.

And I think your right about the motives.


Ah, a BSG fan, since you're new here I'll reiterate my long standing warning/request. I have not seen anything past the first few episodes of Season 4, so until I buy the DVD I apreciate it if everyone keeps "who's the last cylon" type spoilers confined to threads marks with spoiler tags.

Or I kill you.


Chig and I already discussed this and know who the final cylon is. The final cylon is... wait for it...

Omph aka Omphlactica. :wink:
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SwordMaster
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Postby SwordMaster » 26 Feb 2009 20:44

its actually Duncan Idaho Ghola number 768968685897857697654556900909

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Postby Tio_Holtzmann » 26 Feb 2009 23:59

I never really thought of Siona as the key to the Golden Path, at most I would say she was the catalyst and her descendants with the gene were the key. Safety from oracular vision and an explosion of humanity into uncharted space, in my mind that was always the goal of the GP.
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Postby Tleilax Master B » 27 Feb 2009 10:14

Tio_Holtzmann wrote:I never really thought of Siona as the key to the Golden Path, at most I would say she was the catalyst and her descendants with the gene were the key. Safety from oracular vision and an explosion of humanity into uncharted space, in my mind that was always the goal of the GP.


Agreed...mostly... I think the siona gene was only necessary for the Scattering, after that it was pretty much moot. Everyone was so spread out and no-technology was so prevalent, it was a bonus, but unnecessary after that IMHO.
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Postby SwordMaster » 03 Mar 2009 10:28

Tleilax Master B wrote:
Tio_Holtzmann wrote:I never really thought of Siona as the key to the Golden Path, at most I would say she was the catalyst and her descendants with the gene were the key. Safety from oracular vision and an explosion of humanity into uncharted space, in my mind that was always the goal of the GP.


Agreed...mostly... I think the siona gene was only necessary for the Scattering, after that it was pretty much moot. Everyone was so spread out and no-technology was so prevalent, it was a bonus, but unnecessary after that IMHO.


Another part of the key is the throw back that was Duncan, all of Duncan and Siona's offspring would not only carry her invisibility, but Duncan gave them what? He was the throw back; he was the ancient element that must have been part of LetoIIs plan. What did the Duncan element do to the 1000 sons of Idaho?
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