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    Leto-Harum

    Postby Atreyuh » 24 Feb 2009 02:33

    Hi folks!

    I was just wondering if somebody could explain a little bit more the Harum-Leto 2 thing.

    I always considered Harum to be an archaic pharaoh-like figure from Earth.
    And I was always disturbed by the end of CoD: is Leto possessed, is he the same person?

    At first I thougth this Harum advised Leto and inspired him, thus leading to the pharaonic empire we get to see in GEoD.
    But after several rereadings, it seems there is more: Harum somehow managed to become more than a mere ego-memory and somehow integrated Leto's personality on a permanent basis.

    Your thoughts?
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    Postby Ghost » 24 Feb 2009 07:22

    Harum was like the ''first'' Atreides (i mean Atreus is a a descendant of him)

    AFAIK, Harum made a pact with Leto, to not to be possesed, he (Harum) was in charge of the collective inside Leto.
    Together they created like a new personality.
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    Postby Freakzilla » 24 Feb 2009 08:13

    Harum is Leto's male version of the Bene Gesserit Mohalata, a powerfull ancestor who acts as a guide and keeps the rest of the ancestor personas from rising up and overpowering Leto. He was one of the first kings of Egypt, and you are correct about Leto using his empire as a model.

    Leto is possessed, but not like Alia. He is possessed by ALL of his ancestors AND he is still himself. He has made a deal with them to let them be voyours as long as they leave him in control.
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    Postby Atreyuh » 25 Feb 2009 12:46

    Thanks Freakzilla!

    You shed some light on my interrogations.
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby semuta » 07 Aug 2009 20:30

    There is a description in GEoD that Leto gives to Moneo about Harum (in my memory at least, although it is quite a few years since I read it) where Leto describes Harum as being a pyramid thinker, generating pyramid structure societies.

    This itself gives us an insight into how Harum is establishing a structural working system for dominance over all the other selves within Leto's Other Memory, as well as an idea of how the new hybrid personality (of Leto, as he faces the prospect of dreaming within the worm) may be thinking. The pyramid is also essential as a mentational device when Leto projects his prescient vision.

    Leto himself speaks of the Safaris he takes into his mind, evocative of the wild jungle. In mayan shamanism there is identified the left and right hemispheres of the brain as the chaotic and lawful, or creative and logical. The correct terms used by mayan shamen are the Nagual and the Tonal. Here, the pyramid & Harums personality come to represent the Tonal (logical) aspect of Leto's persona. His own self stands as the gate between that, and the shadow of the wild worm that increasingly threatens to consume Letos self~identity and wrestle control over the Tyrants body, plunging him into an endless dream.

    Frank Herbert used this sort of symbolic analogy quite a lot, sidestepped a frame of reference from the cultural acceptance of a theme, to come at it from a fresh angle and also that the initiate would be reading the story in a different way to the non initiate. A typical Masonic strategy.

    Leto knew that a pyramid society is fallible. He sought to deny such society any ability to found itself thus cause enslavement. His utopian ideal is a free~forming continually reforming every writhing culture, perpetually.

    The importance of a pyramid structured society is highlighted in relevance to the projections of Letos prescience, the Golden Path. Mentational ability contrasted with the random chaotic nature of tomorrows universe. This is like a recap, shorthand symbolism, for the same subject as it has been explored in the earlier books. In GEoD Frank symbolises that whole concept and has a god debate/explore it within his minds eye.

    Frank is doing a few things in similitude here, that the story speaks of both at once, with the same words and passages having multilayered meaning and often playing one off against the other. The 'normal prescient mentat' consciousness that has already been explored with Paul Maud'Dib and with guild Navigators. With Leto this is mutating and taken another step further. While His new insights (the necessity for the development of people who are invisible~to~prescience) are drawn from the techniques of observation applied from his traditions, from his teachings; as consequence of Leto's development of prescient ability, he raises the stakes and therefore the observers awareness level beyond his predecessors. When Leto is looking into the future, it is macrocosmic and all encompassing. After the debate of whether a prescient creates or merely observes the future, Leto determines the answer; by observing, he is establishes the future into which many generations will experience as their lives. In doing so he sets the gameboard fo their lives; they know that he has already seen this. They are fated. And so his gift is to set them free of it.

    So that when we observe that which is to come through Letos eyes, during his lifetime, as we read GEoD; we are analysing His mind to the best of our ability; as a prescient mentat. This is the pyramid. Yet we know that He is functioning on a level of higher awareness spectrum. He can see further ahead, and as the story progresses the consequences of His alterations to our previous insightful visions are explored at the same time. It has the effect of throwing us out of time, out of linear sequence; away from the pyramid; off the grid.

    Our minds are unhinged because we do not know what is happening and at what levels the other characters are functioning. Only when Odrade matures does Frank appear to pick up this thread, because she represents what we are capable of, accelerated. By this era the humans are faster, smarter, better than us. We should not forget this as we read of them, seeking to understand them through one common factor that we still share with them; emotion. And are their emotions the same as ours or have they too evolved? How many levels of perceptual awareness, how many steps of the pyramid are being drawn into a singularity here, and how many realities does that singularity encompass? In martial arts terms we are watching the Attention point of the characters.

    We must expand into the creative rather than logical aspect of our mind. During this passing we are being nurtured and altered much as the Tleilaxu whistle language is manipulating the thoughts and perceptions of their creations. Frank plays bat and ball with us.

    When Leto looks into the future, he is seeing his own hand in it. The notion of the Golden Path is the strategy that He must employ over his 3500 year lifespan in order to maintain the vision that he has seen. It must be very lonely for him. Leto is visualising two things; the future universe according to prescience, and the future universe according to the design that he wants to achieve. To this ends he develops the strategy of creating the Siona bloodline (Atreides bloodline) who are invisible to prescience. This gives him a game that will over the years keep him sharply focused; a gamble to test his own prescient abilities. Eventually He knows this will slip away from him, because it is in his nature to allow it. That defines him as a Human, ultimately. What would he have become otherwise?

    Idaho is the steady focus for contrast against this ever clouded backdrop of a growing world beyond the grasp of Leto's sight. The awakening consciousness of the ghola who is himself developing similar related abilities. Importantly the ghola is not invisible to Leto's prescience. When I read the book a second time I considered that Idaho remains visible to Leto even after he jumps the No~ship into the Scattering at the end of Chapter House. What happens next is what Leto was watching, creating, forming a culture through thousands of years merely so that this event could occur. It represents survival, encapsulated.

    Fundamental to understanding the development of Leto's strategy, what he achieves with the GP and what it means, is the readers belief of whether His prescience is Absolute, or limited. The consequence of the Siona line is integral to this question. Leto limits his own prescient vision with his breeding program. Why would he do this? He could have remained a bored god infinitely. That was not his agenda.

    Odrade's discovery of sietch Tabr and Leto's message. The scope of Leto's prescience is a big question that the Bene Gesserit still have not resolved even by the end of Chapter House. Frank leaves us as he does the Faithful with this debate, a riddle. In doing so the paradox becomes a koan, and one of the major turning factors that bind such querents to His path. It is a strategy; to keep people steered through the aeons by pondering, are we out of the tunnel yet?

    The mentat imposes a sense of order upon the universe.
    This sense of order is a grid.
    The grid is constructed of watching syncronistic events from convergent threads of causality.
    The grid is our perception, of the world.

    Later, Frank uses the notion of a grid to describe the Net encountered by Idaho.
    This is the construction of the world as it is.
    once Idaho sees the net, the grid imposed upon him by Letos prescient vision, then he is able to slip through it, disappearing into a different realm.
    The conclusion of Leto's experiment with reality (and gods are deigned to experiment with reality, since the mind of a god is the fabric of which mortal worlds are made) is that Idaho ghola finally develops an ability to slip through the net. He cannot be caged into any persons version of reality, not even that of a god.

    Irregular footsteps in the sand; non~rhythmic walking.
    From the Scattering comes Murbella. She is chaos incarnate and brings new order to the stagnating system.

    I often wonder whether Frank was himself in awe as the story elements came together on the page before him. Could we speak with him now, he would be asking the very same questions of the work that we do.
    That's how I wrote the novel, wanting you to participate with the best of your own imagination. I did not aim for the lowest common denominator and 'write down" to anyone. You and I have a compact and my responsibility is to entertain you as richly as possible, always giving you as much extra as I can. I assume you are intelligent and will enlist your own imagination. You'll see that when you read the Dune excerpt and the other stories in this collection.
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby SandChigger » 07 Aug 2009 22:25

    My, my, but this is quite the smörgåsbord of delights, isn't it?! :)

    Like certain overblown hacks, I'm trying to watch my gnarly figure, so please allow me to start small with a few nibbles...

    semuta wrote:There is a description in GEoD that Leto gives to Moneo about Harum (in my memory at least, although it is quite a few years since I read it) where Leto describes Harum as being a pyramid thinker, generating pyramid structure societies.

    Yeah ... memory can be a tricky thing, though. Freak, any lights flashing in the quote department?

    A typical Masonic strategy.

    Well, we are living in the house that Frank built, no? :P

    Our minds are unhinged

    Speak for yourself.

    ... when Odrade matures... By this era the humans are faster, smarter, better than us.

    This was already true at the time of Dune itself. Even truer by Leto II's time, when Moneo bested the "old model" Duncan ghola.

    What would [Leto II] have become otherwise?

    Persona non-grata at casinos everywhere? ;)

    When I read the book a second time I considered that Idaho remains visible to Leto even after he jumps the No~ship into the Scattering at the end of Chapter House. What happens next is what Leto was watching, creating, forming a culture through thousands of years merely so that this event could occur. It represents survival, encapsulated.

    The only problem with this is Leto's statements to the effect that he did not peek or micromanage things too far into the future.

    He could have remained a bored god infinitely. That was not his agenda.

    Nor his hybrid body's. He could NOT have remained that way "infinitely".

    once Idaho sees the net, the grid imposed upon him by Letos prescient vision, then he is able to slip through it, disappearing into a different realm.

    Interesting, but associating that grid with Leto's prescience seems a bit of a leap to me. ;)

    (Sorry, but "and gods are deigned to experiment with reality" doesn't make sense grammatically. Did you mean "gods deign to..."?)

    Heady stuff. Ripping good time, what?! :D
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby Freakzilla » 07 Aug 2009 22:43

    SandChigger wrote:My, my, but this is quite the smörgåsbord of delights, isn't it?! :)

    Like certain overblown hacks, I'm trying to watch my gnarly figure, so please allow me to start small with a few nibbles...

    semuta wrote:There is a description in GEoD that Leto gives to Moneo about Harum (in my memory at least, although it is quite a few years since I read it) where Leto describes Harum as being a pyramid thinker, generating pyramid structure societies.

    Yeah ... memory can be a tricky thing, though. Freak, any lights flashing in the quote department?


    Sounds like he's thinking about CoD when Leto describes Harum to Farad'n:

    "Explain."
    "You have an admirable directness," Leto said. "I'm a community dominated by
    one who was ancient and surpassingly powerful. He fathered a dynasty which
    endured for three thousand of our years. His name was Harum and, until his line
    trailed out in the congenital weaknesses and superstitions of a descendant, his
    subjects lived in a rhythmic sublimity. They moved unconsciously with the
    changes of the seasons. They bred individuals who tended to be short-lived,
    superstitious, and easily led by a god-king. Taken as a whole, they were a
    powerful people. Their survival as a species became habit."


    But I missed out on the pyramids.

    A typical Masonic strategy.

    Well, we are living in the house that Frank built, no? :P

    Our minds are unhinged

    Speak for yourself.

    ... when Odrade matures... By this era the humans are faster, smarter, better than us.

    This was already true at the time of Dune itself. Even truer by Leto II's time, when Moneo bested the "old model" Duncan ghola.

    What would [Leto II] have become otherwise?

    Persona non-grata at casinos everywhere? ;)

    When I read the book a second time I considered that Idaho remains visible to Leto even after he jumps the No~ship into the Scattering at the end of Chapter House. What happens next is what Leto was watching, creating, forming a culture through thousands of years merely so that this event could occur. It represents survival, encapsulated.

    The only problem with this is Leto's statements to the effect that he did not peek or micromanage things too far into the future.

    He could have remained a bored god infinitely. That was not his agenda.

    Nor his hybrid body's. He could NOT have remained that way "infinitely".

    once Idaho sees the net, the grid imposed upon him by Letos prescient vision, then he is able to slip through it, disappearing into a different realm.

    Interesting, but associating that grid with Leto's prescience seems a bit of a leap to me. ;)

    (Sorry, but "and gods are deigned to experiment with reality" doesn't make sense grammatically. Did you mean "gods deign to..."?)

    Heady stuff. Ripping good time, what?! :D


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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby Serkanner » 08 Aug 2009 05:01

    I am looking forward to Conway's "point of view" on this short essay.
    "... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

    “There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

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    and wrote a Dune Novel."
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby SandChigger » 08 Aug 2009 05:46

    Yes, that could be interesting, as this is some of Ho... um, someone's best work yet.

    I love the way that the words, more than really saying something profound, appear to be saying saying profound. ;)
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby SadisticCynic » 08 Aug 2009 06:21

    I'm not really sure if this is right but the pyramid thing might be related to the governmental structure Leto used i.e. the pharoanic rule. Therefore a god-king at the pinnacle of society and the most numerous but least valued humans at the bottom level.


    Or maybe I'm just linking pharoah with Egypt/pyramids... :oops:
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby semuta » 08 Aug 2009 07:57

    Sandchigger wrote: My, my, but this is quite the smörgåsbord of delights, isn't it?! :)


    How come he gets to have funny writing on his keyboard? :D


    Freakzilla wrote:Sounds like he's thinking about CoD when Leto describes Harum to Farad'n:

    "Explain."
    "You have an admirable directness," Leto said. "I'm a community dominated by
    one who was ancient and surpassingly powerful. He fathered a dynasty which
    endured for three thousand of our years. His name was Harum and, until his line
    trailed out in the congenital weaknesses and superstitions of a descendant, his
    subjects lived in a rhythmic sublimity. They moved unconsciously with the
    changes of the seasons. They bred individuals who tended to be short-lived,
    superstitious, and easily led by a god-king. Taken as a whole, they were a
    powerful people. Their survival as a species became habit."


    But I missed out on the pyramids.


    Yes thats the bit, many thanks Freak. An apology for confusing anybody by accrediting that to Moneo, as I said it is some time since I read the book & memory being what it used to be...

    It wasn’t the actual physical pyramids found on Terra that Leto is referring to but pyramid~thinking, which by natural contrast is as opposed to circle thinking. As a social model Leto seeks to make it impossible for any more gods to follow him by removing the power base that allows for it, for ever. That ideology is an essential part of the Golden Path. Pyramid~thinking is hierarchy structure, a society of social caste.

    What happens in the years following Leto’s reign is that whilst the Bene Gesserit seek to reinvent themselves to give themselves a purpose, capitalism follows the wake of the gods tyrannical empire. Capitalism defines social caste. But to understand this we must recognise that so far as castes go, the new technology of the No~ships empower groups of people to free themselves from any dominant hierarchical control society. Idaho’s actions are an example of this when he goes into the Scattering.

    Leto identified with the qualities of Harum’s empire; both its duration and the ‘survival as a species became a habit’ taught Him a great amount of philosophy which He applied to His own society.


    sadisticynic wrote:I'm not really sure if this is right but the pyramid thing might be related to the governmental structure Leto used i.e. the pharoanic rule. Therefore a god-king at the pinnacle of society and the most numerous but least valued humans at the bottom level.

    Or maybe I'm just linking pharoah with Egypt/pyramids... :oops:


    Yes that’s what I was thinking also; the hierarchy being Leto, special guests, Fishspeakers, all the people with Siona gene, all the people without Siona gene.

    Which is very interesting compared to the Bene Gesserit social structure.

    Leto was seeking to remove such hierarchies by teaching people to move invisibly from each other and to think for themselves to find the loophole in any rigid system. Siona is the living proof of this but the ethos can be applied to many levels of his functioning; even his own brain was disseminating throughout his body away from one centralised location. Which makes me wonder about ganglia and Sianoqq in a new way.

    semuta wrote: When I read the book a second time I considered that Idaho remains visible to Leto even after he jumps the No~ship into the Scattering at the end of Chapter House. What happens next is what Leto was watching, creating, forming a culture through thousands of years merely so that this event could occur. It represents survival, encapsulated.

    Sandchigger wrote:The only problem with this is Leto's statements to the effect that he did not peek or micromanage things too far into the future.


    So he claims. He deals only with the relatively short range projections (which encompass many generations of human lives) up to the point of avoiding Krazilec. We have only Letos word for it that Krazilec would have occurred without his intervention into human affairs. He never justifies this which I find very interesting. Leto developed the Siona gene specifically to avoid the end of the human species. It is about what he envisages that he had to begin this breeding project. And I question that was his true intent; beyond the necessity to create those who are invisible to prescience, he would know that mutations such as Miles Teg were likely to follow as evolution naturally progresses. Did Leto foresee the Ones of Many Faces? Did Leto foresee Honored Matre?

    Leto doesn’t micromanage too far into the future because he purposefully creates a limit to his own prescient ability with the Siona gene. Then the No~ships fulfill a similar purpose.

    semuta wrote:He could have remained a bored god infinitely. That was not his agenda.

    Sandchigger wrote:Nor his hybrid body's. He could NOT have remained that way "infinitely".


    Bene Gesserit can adapt their bodies to reduce them aging, to prolong longevity. Leto uses these prana~bindu skills during his symbiosis with the worm. He is ‘killed’ before His transition into a sandworm runs its full course. By ‘indefinitely’ I am pondering at what would have happened if He had found a balance within himself that would hold the wild worm off and maintain his own persona’s control over the hybrid body.


    semuta wrote:once Idaho sees the net, the grid imposed upon him by Letos prescient vision, then he is able to slip through it, disappearing into a different realm.

    Sandchigger wrote:Interesting, but associating that grid with Leto's prescience seems a bit of a leap to me. ;)

    (Sorry, but "and gods are deigned to experiment with reality" doesn't make sense grammatically. Did you mean "gods deign to..."?)


    ok, ok already! lol... I wrote this after midnight when all the good mogwai are in bed. Yes I meant gods deign to, but it works in the other context also. It depends on who you see as pulling the strings; the role of a god is not necessarily the top of the pyramid. A great part of the story relies upon an evolving humanity gaining abilities to perceive and communicate with extra dimensional entities. Daniel & Marty perceive & interact with Time in quite a different way to most characters. Their prescience can see through the barrier of No~ships (although they may be using a technological device for this). Their language indicates an understanding of manifest reality that is different from the characters living within it. Describing Idahos lifespan as his ‘being stretched thin’ for example. A paradigm shift is occurring fast here and the language necessary to contain the new concepts puts a final spin on everything.


    Serkanna wrote:I am looking forward to Conway's "point of view" on this short essay.


    me too!


    Frank began the series with Solomons Seal.
    Three characters who are the ‘good guys’ in chapter one are a triangle pointing upwards.
    Three characters who are bad guys in chapter two are a triangle pointing downwards.
    (Masonic symbology for a world held in balance)
    This is a Gate through which the reader enters the themes.
    "A beginning is a time for taking the most delicate care that the balances are correct" ~Irulan


    If we follow the spine of the dragon (sandworm riders) as the kundalini serpent, we identify that there are 6 of the 7 chakras described as the 6 books. This locates GEoD as the heart chakra, the very center of the soul of Dune. Whilst the Thousand Petal Lotus (crown chakra) is kept clean for the reader to choose their own trajectory, we of course return to our own dune training in analysing what might happen next. Which is by necessity the Mentat~Prescient training and Other Memory (future and past; again we have two triangles, up and down entwined, Solomons Seal).

    Frank knows this of course, or at least whoever spirits are speaking through him are training us all into this understanding of the Dune Tarot (how symbolism from our myths manifests as lived realities). This is why Harum and ‘pyramid thinking’ are mentioned in this part of the story. To return us to the beginning.
    In contradiction to the Bene Gesserit training, Leto follows his heart. As did Paul and Chani his parents, as did Leto 1st and Jessica his grandparents. This is perhaps as consequence of the terrible story of his Great Grandparents, Mohaim & Vladimir.

    Emotional thinking is a way to break the rigid doctrine of pyramid structure, but alas also predictable as the Tleilaxu prove with Hwi; He must yet mix Instinct into the equation. The beautiful Hwi is very important to understanding Leto’s character and the games being played with a god by the cheeky Tleilaxu. Perhaps discussion of this deserves its own a thread?

    The contrast of a pyramid structure as a model for society with the fluid circle thinking encouraged to the Fishspeakers might give us some insight into Sainoqq.
    That's how I wrote the novel, wanting you to participate with the best of your own imagination. I did not aim for the lowest common denominator and 'write down" to anyone. You and I have a compact and my responsibility is to entertain you as richly as possible, always giving you as much extra as I can. I assume you are intelligent and will enlist your own imagination. You'll see that when you read the Dune excerpt and the other stories in this collection.
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby loremaster » 08 Aug 2009 08:49

    Atreyuh..... some things are made known by their opposite, in this case, reading semuta's post and seeing what he doesnt say.

    semuta wrote:There is a description in GEoD that Leto gives to Moneo about Harum (in my memory at least, although it is quite a few years since I read it) where Leto describes Harum as being a pyramid thinker, generating pyramid structure societies.



    Harum was one of the first practitioners of the pharaonic model, thats as far as it goes. Pyramids arent mentioned, pharaonic societies are.

    This itself gives us an insight into how Harum is establishing a structural working system for dominance over all the other selves within Leto's Other Memory, as well as an idea of how the new hybrid personality (of Leto, as he faces the prospect of dreaming within the worm) may be thinking. The pyramid is also essential as a mentational device when Leto projects his prescient vision.



    Harum may have been the speaker for the internal committee, but leto was in charge. If you want to persist with a pharaonic model, imagine Harum as the king of england, bestowed by god with power over all other subjects, but still ultimately answerable to Leto.

    Leto himself speaks of the Safaris he takes into his mind, evocative of the wild jungle. In mayan shamanism there is identified the left and right hemispheres of the brain as the chaotic and lawful, or creative and logical. The correct terms used by mayan shamen are the Nagual and the Tonal. Here, the pyramid & Harums personality come to represent the Tonal (logical) aspect of Leto's persona. His own self stands as the gate between that, and the shadow of the wild worm that increasingly threatens to consume Letos self~identity and wrestle control over the Tyrants body, plunging him into an endless dream.

    Frank Herbert used this sort of symbolic analogy quite a lot, sidestepped a frame of reference from the cultural acceptance of a theme, to come at it from a fresh angle and also that the initiate would be reading the story in a different way to the non initiate. A typical Masonic strategy.



    I have no idea where you've pulled this from, but i dont remember Harum being referred to as logical, or any such similar reference. Nor do i rememeber Frank describing any sort of Mayan origin. Why did you include all this?

    Leto knew that a pyramid society is fallible. He sought to deny such society any ability to found itself thus cause enslavement. His utopian ideal is a free~forming continually reforming every writhing culture, perpetually.

    The importance of a pyramid structured society is highlighted in relevance to the projections of Letos prescience, the Golden Path. Mentational ability contrasted with the random chaotic nature of tomorrows universe. This is like a recap, shorthand symbolism, for the same subject as it has been explored in the earlier books. In GEoD Frank symbolises that whole concept and has a god debate/explore it within his minds eye.



    I'm not sure i really see what you're saying here either? Leto used the memories of ancestors to show him a million ways not to do it, and in his own words those memories "illuminate my path". He saw from internal observations of ancestral experiences that fixing upon a leader, remaining grounded in tradition and choosing easy options lead down into stagnation which is precisely what leto wanted to avoid, that way meant death.
    Remember, Leto does not judge his ancestors, (I am not the iron hammer - which is one of the coolest lines in the best book, IMO). He simply uses their experience to show what new strategy must be followed.

    Frank is doing a few things in similitude here, that the story speaks of both at once, with the same words and passages having multilayered meaning and often playing one off against the other. The 'normal prescient mentat' consciousness that has already been explored with Paul Maud'Dib and with guild Navigators.



    You dont need to be a mentat to be prescient. obviously, not all mentats are prescient. Examples of prescients but not mentats include Edric, Alia, Ghanima, Odrade.

    With Leto this is mutating and taken another step further. While His new insights (the necessity for the development of people who are invisible~to~prescience) are drawn from the techniques of observation applied from his traditions, from his teachings; as consequence of Leto's development of prescient ability, he raises the stakes and therefore the observers awareness level beyond his predecessors. When Leto is looking into the future, it is macrocosmic and all encompassing. After the debate of whether a prescient creates or merely observes the future, Leto determines the answer; by observing, he is establishes the future into which many generations will experience as their lives. In doing so he sets the gameboard fo their lives; they know that he has already seen this. They are fated. And so his gift is to set them free of it.



    I agree, Leto used his ancestors to show him the way forward. Stagnation, hero worship, tradition were all limiting humanity. Prescience was another trap. Spice addiction a third. By driving the desire to travel, by eroding all tradition (homogenising life) and by forcing people to be creative, he stopped the downward spiral of stagnation and tradition. To avoid prescience, he created siona and semi-intentionally drove the ixians to create no-fields. To remove spice addiction, he weined society from it over 4,000 years, and in the same time drove tleilaxu to create artificial spice which could be reproduced anywhere, freeing humanity from ties to arrakis.
    So that when we observe that which is to come through Letos eyes, during his lifetime, as we read GEoD; we are analysing His mind to the best of our ability; as a prescient mentat. This is the pyramid. Yet we know that He is functioning on a level of higher awareness spectrum. He can see further ahead, and as the story progresses the consequences of His alterations to our previous insightful visions are explored at the same time. It has the effect of throwing us out of time, out of linear sequence; away from the pyramid; off the grid.


    Just... what? Leto didnt look beyond his lifetime except out of the corner of his prescient eye to see that the golden path continued.


    Our minds are unhinged because we do not know what is happening and at what levels the other characters are functioning. Only when Odrade matures does Frank appear to pick up this thread, because she represents what we are capable of, accelerated. By this era the humans are faster, smarter, better than us.



    This had always been the case. Siona was the new, (And all her descendants) because she felt siaynoq. Because she was fast, agile, free from prescient control and always tried to create the new ("restore the outward view"). Siona was the start.


    We should not forget this as we read of them, seeking to understand them through one common factor that we still share with them; emotion. And are their emotions the same as ours or have they too evolved? How many levels of perceptual awareness, how many steps of the pyramid are being drawn into a singularity here, and how many realities does that singularity encompass? In martial arts terms we are watching the Attention point of the characters.



    what?

    We must expand into the creative rather than logical aspect of our mind. During this passing we are being nurtured and altered much as the Tleilaxu whistle language is manipulating the thoughts and perceptions of their creations. Frank plays bat and ball with us.


    What?


    When Leto looks into the future, he is seeing his own hand in it. The notion of the Golden Path is the strategy that He must employ over his 3500 year lifespan in order to maintain the vision that he has seen. It must be very lonely for him. Leto is visualising two things; the future universe according to prescience, and the future universe according to the design that he wants to achieve. To this ends he develops the strategy of creating the Siona bloodline (Atreides bloodline) who are invisible to prescience. This gives him a game that will over the years keep him sharply focused; a gamble to test his own prescient abilities. Eventually He knows this will slip away from him, because it is in his nature to allow it. That defines him as a Human, ultimately. What would he have become otherwise?



    What?

    Siona wasnt a trap, or a test, siona was an achievement. She wasnt there to keep him focussed. She was what he was focussed on creating!

    Idaho is the steady focus for contrast against this ever clouded backdrop of a growing world beyond the grasp of Leto's sight. The awakening consciousness of the ghola who is himself developing similar related abilities. Importantly the ghola is not invisible to Leto's prescience. When I read the book a second time I considered that Idaho remains visible to Leto even after he jumps the No~ship into the Scattering at the end of Chapter House. What happens next is what Leto was watching, creating, forming a culture through thousands of years merely so that this event could occur. It represents survival, encapsulated.


    Leto didnt look beyond his death, he says so himself. Duncan was a dampener, he was routinely bred back into the breeding program as a sort of baseline human. I cant remember a quote offhand but their is one. GEoD, i think leto is explaining to moneo the purpose of the duncans.
    He did continue to manipulate events though. I believe (though many disagree) that humanity isnt out of the woods yet, and that part of the golden path included maturing of the bene gesserit to have his wider definition of humanity. The message on the wall is designed to goad the BG into becoming custodians of his golden path. To get off their elitist horse about what constitues humanity, and to stop being a manipulative secret society.


    Fundamental to understanding the development of Leto's strategy, what he achieves with the GP and what it means, is the readers belief of whether His prescience is Absolute, or limited. The consequence of the Siona line is integral to this question. Leto limits his own prescient vision with his breeding program. Why would he do this? He could have remained a bored god infinitely. That was not his agenda.


    Leto wanted to remove the idea of a centralised figure, not become it indefinately (which like chigger said he couldnt do anyway). I believe Leto's prescience to be much more powerful than Paul's, but still limited, and prone to failure. The fact is that he didnt use it on the macrocosmic scale you suggested earlier. He limited it to small uses like "prescient scans" (GEoD) to help manipulate events, he didnt look beyond his time except to see the golden path continued, the direction of the golden path was shown by his past (ancestry). Siona was created to free humanity from ALL prescients, not just his.

    Odrade's discovery of sietch Tabr and Leto's message. The scope of Leto's prescience is a big question that the Bene Gesserit still have not resolved even by the end of Chapter House. Frank leaves us as he does the Faithful with this debate, a riddle. In doing so the paradox becomes a koan, and one of the major turning factors that bind such querents to His path. It is a strategy; to keep people steered through the aeons by pondering, are we out of the tunnel yet?



    I've done this bit. Leto didnt leave that message through prescience because a)he said so and b)Odrade is Atreides anyway, (siona gene).
    Are we safe yet? I personally dont think so, not until the BG step up, swallow the numbers of the HM (giving them the numbers to operate on the big scale) and take an active role in humanity, living, loving and dying for it, like leto did.

    The mentat imposes a sense of order upon the universe.
    This sense of order is a grid.
    The grid is constructed of watching syncronistic events from convergent threads of causality.
    The grid is our perception, of the world.

    Later, Frank uses the notion of a grid to describe the Net encountered by Idaho.
    This is the construction of the world as it is.
    once Idaho sees the net, the grid imposed upon him by Letos prescient vision, then he is able to slip through it, disappearing into a different realm.
    The conclusion of Leto's experiment with reality (and gods are deigned to experiment with reality, since the mind of a god is the fabric of which mortal worlds are made) is that Idaho ghola finally develops an ability to slip through the net. He cannot be caged into any persons version of reality, not even that of a god.

    Irregular footsteps in the sand; non~rhythmic walking.
    From the Scattering comes Murbella. She is chaos incarnate and brings new order to the stagnating system.

    I often wonder whether Frank was himself in awe as the story elements came together on the page before him. Could we speak with him now, he would be asking the very same questions of the work that we do.


    This is just waffle. Murbella wasnt new, or prophetical... sheanna maybe, not murbella. The net had nothing to do with mentats. For the fifth and final time, leto didnt look beyond his time, it cannot be his net.
    The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby loremaster » 08 Aug 2009 09:16

    Spend so long replying to your last drivel you managed to slip this one in between.


    Yes thats the bit, many thanks Freak. An apology for confusing anybody by accrediting that to Moneo, as I said it is some time since I read the book & memory being what it used to be...

    It wasn’t the actual physical pyramids found on Terra that Leto is referring to but pyramid~thinking, which by natural contrast is as opposed to circle thinking. As a social model Leto seeks to make it impossible for any more gods to follow him by removing the power base that allows for it, for ever. That ideology is an essential part of the Golden Path. Pyramid~thinking is hierarchy structure, a society of social caste.


    circle thinking, is this a joke?

    What happens in the years following Leto’s reign is that whilst the Bene Gesserit seek to reinvent themselves to give themselves a purpose, capitalism follows the wake of the gods tyrannical empire. Capitalism defines social caste. But to understand this we must recognise that so far as castes go, the new technology of the No~ships empower groups of people to free themselves from any dominant hierarchical control society. Idaho’s actions are an example of this when he goes into the Scattering.


    Get away from the philosophy now. Capitalism has nothing to do with this aspect of the books. Social caste has almost nothing to do with.
    It's simple, leto suppressed humanity in order to drive their creative side. The creative side produced noships and navigation machines to free them from his control. Later it frees them from other peoples control.


    Leto was seeking to remove such hierarchies by teaching people to move invisibly from each other and to think for themselves to find the loophole in any rigid system. Siona is the living proof of this but the ethos can be applied to many levels of his functioning; even his own brain was disseminating throughout his body away from one centralised location. Which makes me wonder about ganglia and Sianoqq in a new way.



    I agree.

    Sandchigger wrote:The only problem with this is Leto's statements to the effect that he did not peek or micromanage things too far into the future.


    So he claims. He deals only with the relatively short range projections (which encompass many generations of human lives) up to the point of avoiding Krazilec. We have only Letos word for it that Krazilec would have occurred without his intervention into human affairs. He never justifies this which I find very interesting. Leto developed the Siona gene specifically to avoid the end of the human species. It is about what he envisages that he had to begin this breeding project. And I question that was his true intent; beyond the necessity to create those who are invisible to prescience, he would know that mutations such as Miles Teg were likely to follow as evolution naturally progresses. Did Leto foresee the Ones of Many Faces? Did Leto foresee Honored Matre?

    Leto doesn’t micromanage too far into the future because he purposefully creates a limit to his own prescient ability with the Siona gene. Then the No~ships fulfill a similar purpose.



    We dont only have his word for it, we have the visions of Siona and Moneo, who saw the necessity for the golden path too. Besides that, i believe him. You're heading down a KJA route if you start questioning whether characters even told the truth inside their own heads.

    Bene Gesserit can adapt their bodies to reduce them aging, to prolong longevity. Leto uses these prana~bindu skills during his symbiosis with the worm. He is ‘killed’ before His transition into a sandworm runs its full course. By ‘indefinitely’ I am pondering at what would have happened if He had found a balance within himself that would hold the wild worm off and maintain his own persona’s control over the hybrid body.



    I see your sugestion, but remember that it was pretty hard in the first instance to control the sandtrout skin, and now the worm was taking more of a hold he was slowly losing his control in the struggle (moneo fears the Worm Who Is God)

    ok, ok already! lol... I wrote this after midnight when all the good mogwai are in bed. Yes I meant gods deign to, but it works in the other context also. It depends on who you see as pulling the strings; the role of a god is not necessarily the top of the pyramid. A great part of the story relies upon an evolving humanity gaining abilities to perceive and communicate with extra dimensional entities. Daniel & Marty perceive & interact with Time in quite a different way to most characters. Their prescience can see through the barrier of No~ships (although they may be using a technological device for this). Their language indicates an understanding of manifest reality that is different from the characters living within it. Describing Idahos lifespan as his ‘being stretched thin’ for example. A paradigm shift is occurring fast here and the language necessary to contain the new concepts puts a final spin on everything.



    We dont know much about marty and daniel, very little at all. Ignoring the bumpf about god, marty and daniel are one of the enigmas of the sixth book. What were they doing peeking? why are they gardening? what is it a metaphor for? I dont believe they're extra dimensional entities, thats just random sci-fi technobabble you've made up.


    Serkanna wrote:I am looking forward to Conway's "point of view" on this short essay.


    me too!


    I doubt you'll find a preek hitting the hard dune threads.


    Frank began the series with Solomons Seal.
    Three characters who are the ‘good guys’ in chapter one are a triangle pointing upwards.
    Three characters who are bad guys in chapter two are a triangle pointing downwards.
    (Masonic symbology for a world held in balance)
    This is a Gate through which the reader enters the themes.
    "A beginning is a time for taking the most delicate care that the balances are correct" ~Irulan


    If we follow the spine of the dragon (sandworm riders) as the kundalini serpent, we identify that there are 6 of the 7 chakras described as the 6 books. This locates GEoD as the heart chakra, the very center of the soul of Dune. Whilst the Thousand Petal Lotus (crown chakra) is kept clean for the reader to choose their own trajectory, we of course return to our own dune training in analysing what might happen next. Which is by necessity the Mentat~Prescient training and Other Memory (future and past; again we have two triangles, up and down entwined, Solomons Seal).



    Gibberish, irrelevant over analysis.

    Frank knows this of course, or at least whoever spirits are speaking through him are training us all into this understanding of the Dune Tarot (how symbolism from our myths manifests as lived realities). This is why Harum and ‘pyramid thinking’ are mentioned in this part of the story. To return us to the beginning.
    In contradiction to the Bene Gesserit training, Leto follows his heart. As did Paul and Chani his parents, as did Leto 1st and Jessica his grandparents. This is perhaps as consequence of the terrible story of his Great Grandparents, Mohaim & Vladimir.


    And bang, you're gone. Who was Leto's great grandmother? Check again, check REALLY hard. It should come to you.


    Emotional thinking is a way to break the rigid doctrine of pyramid structure, but alas also predictable as the Tleilaxu prove with Hwi; He must yet mix Instinct into the equation. The beautiful Hwi is very important to understanding Leto’s character and the games being played with a god by the cheeky Tleilaxu. Perhaps discussion of this deserves its own a thread?

    The contrast of a pyramid structure as a model for society with the fluid circle thinking encouraged to the Fishspeakers might give us some insight into Sainoqq.


    What?
    The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby Serkanner » 08 Aug 2009 10:04

    Mohiam isn't Jessica's mother. ( not confirmed in the original books that is )
    "... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

    “There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

    Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
    and wrote a Dune Novel."
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby loremaster » 08 Aug 2009 10:55

    serk, you spoilt it for him!

    For the bonus point, it was Tanidia Nerus. (Leto to Jessica in CoD - "The breeding records would show - Jessica out of Tanidia Nerus by the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen")
    The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby SandChigger » 08 Aug 2009 11:16

    Fee Fie Foe Fumble
    The smell of Preeq makes
    My tummy rumble :twisted:

    If your mind is too open, all kinds of shit—like McDune crap—can flow in and settle. :roll:

    semuta wrote:
    Sandchigger wrote:My, my, but this is quite the smörgåsbord of delights, isn't it?! :)

    How come he gets to have funny writing on his keyboard? :D

    Because I used to be a Magical Jewish Saint, and some of my powers remain. :D

    At present I'd be overjoyed if you'd just use a bloody apostrophe or two, or a hyphen instead of a tilde/wave dash in "no-ship". ;)

    Sandchigger wrote:The only problem with this is Leto's statements to the effect that he did not peek or micromanage things too far into the future.

    So he claims.

    I have no reason to disbelieve him.

    He deals only with the relatively short range projections (which encompass many generations of human lives) up to the point of avoiding Krazilec.

    By the way, it's Kralizec. And Leto does nothing to avoid it. "I promise you, Kralizec will come," he tells Farad'n. Kralizec is the chaos of the famine times. I believe Leto, raised as a Fremen, was using a Fremen metaphor for the turbulent times he saw coming after his own reign.

    If not, how do you explain that Frank Herbert never uses the term again in the remaining two books? :)

    Did Leto foresee the Ones of Many Faces? Did Leto foresee Honored Matre?

    I rather think not.

    Frank knows this of course, or at least whoever spirits are speaking through him...

    Oh give me a fucking break. Try to stay on this one plane while posting here, OK? :roll:

    This is why Harum and ‘pyramid thinking’ are mentioned in this part of the story.

    The phrase "pyramid thinking" does not occur once that I can find in any of the Dune books. Or in any of the swamp of McDune crap, either, for that matter. Why not use Frank's term? What was it again?

    The contrast of a pyramid structure as a model for society with the fluid circle thinking encouraged to the Fishspeakers might give us some insight into Sainoqq.

    Gesundheit.

    And it's Siaynoq. I'm sorry, but how do you expect people to take you even remotely seriously if you can't get the spelling of the names correct? And don't give me the song and dance about "been years since I've read the books", either. You're online posting this ... stuff, so you can bloody well roust up an online dictionary = google.
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby semuta » 08 Aug 2009 11:32

    loremaster wrote:Atreyuh..... some things are made known by their opposite, in this case, reading semuta's post and seeing what he doesnt say.


    Exactly! This use of very basic polarity is evident as a storytellers construction tool all the way throughout Dune. Remember that Frank is working on a lot of levels at the same time for very much of the text. He admits that by using devices such as 'foldspace' where the Navigators must align the whole universe to discover the safe trajectory. The idea of following all the threads; ALL of the threads, that we can perceive, so a to discover the safe path, the balanced center, is established repeatedly in many contexts throughout.

    So it is very possible that there are perceptual levels in there (the books) that individual readers are at first unaware. I didn't know the half of what he was talking about when I first read Dune sextet; I had to go away and study a great many things before I could see what Frank is getting at. Dune is not just a linear story, its very subject matter reveals that. It is what he is discussing and exploring. Dune is a teaching book, of conscious perception. The Sleeper must Awaken. It is a Sufi manuscript. The more that I study these things, the more often I find a reference within Dune that reveals an insight that Frank is in fact referring to many existing schools and their symbolic codes. His use of the Panoplia Prophetica confesses to his own research and conclusions about this very thing. So it is quite natural that there are connections in the story for disciplines that the reader has not yet encountered, to make sense of. Instead of attacking any insight into this perception it is a better method to ask oneself, How can that be?

    Going back to folding space and seeing all the threads; there is a left and right hemisphere. There is an up and a down. These polarities are referenced especially when dealing with both Prescience and Other Memory (before and after). When you fold a piece of paper there is a crease down the center of the page. When you fold a 3D globe in half... I postulate that you come up with a mobius loop. This globe is full of stars and the journey of each star as we fold this globe is a thread, a storyline, described in symbol. Very often these are repeats and simmer down into very simple plain story elements. But here we get into the realms of storytelling methods for creative fiction (subplots that either verify or contrast the main plot) and also scientifically the holtzman physics.

    From Polarity we can achieve Balance. That gives us three stable reference points; left, right, & the axl. Here we have a triangle. This is schoolkids stuff but it is also a foundation course in basic egyptian freemasonry. I am not writing to offend anybodies intelligence; I am writing to establish a basic approach to understanding Dune & the issues at hand, that of Leto~Harum. From one source (Harum) grew many tributaries, which can be seen as a family tree, a society, or a generational hierarchy system; again we have triangles. It does not stay in 2D for very long.

    semuta wrote:There is a description in GEoD that Leto gives to Moneo about Harum (in my memory at least, although it is quite a few years since I read it) where Leto describes Harum as being a pyramid thinker, generating pyramid structure societies.

    loremaster wrote:Harum was one of the first practitioners of the pharaonic model, thats as far as it goes. Pyramids arent mentioned, pharaonic societies are.


    It is very confusing with a story as big and alive as Dune. Simplification of everything helps. Frank had certainly studied Egyptian Hieroglyphs and Cartouches; these symbols are designed to work on several layers of meaning. That itself is a teaching of why Egyptology is based upon a tiered pyramid model of awareness. Harum of course the first pharoah is a concise symbol for the diversification that generations of culture founded by him, represent. I will post a picture in here shortly that will further discuss it; once the symbolism is understood. There you go, a crash course in egyptian symbols necessary to understand the symbolism of Dune.

    Dune is resonant. Full of resonant symbols. Often the story contains shorthand symbols referring to more advanced thesis existing in cultural lore. Egyptology is a brilliant place to start. Usul may mean the Base of the Pillar but the word 'Mastaba' is Egyptian for the same, translating in polite conversation to 'bench' it obviously has a secondary meaning referring once again to the Kundalini serpent. I feel that I should not need to make analogies between that shamanic concept and the Sandworm nor the dragon motifs worn by the Honored Matre. Egyptology and Franks study into it is a very definite root source for Dune. What Frank is saying with the Dune books relates not only to Egyptology but also to other cultures. I will elucidate about Maya shortly.

    Contrasting with triangle which represents Law is chaos. Harum is a symbol in the story for all of this. It depends if you read Dune as a stand~alone fiction, or as a manuscript in reference to existing traditions, thus opening the genius of this masterwork to other hidden layers of meaning. Frank did both.


    semuta wrote:This itself gives us an insight into how Harum is establishing a structural working system for dominance over all the other selves within Leto's Other Memory, as well as an idea of how the new hybrid personality (of Leto, as he faces the prospect of dreaming within the worm) may be thinking. The pyramid is also essential as a mentational device when Leto projects his prescient vision.

    loremaster wrote:Harum may have been the speaker for the internal committee, but leto was in charge. If you want to persist with a pharaonic model, imagine Harum as the king of england, bestowed by god with power over all other subjects, but still ultimately answerable to Leto.


    Yes Leto was in charge, although his sweet personality is such that we contemplate the drastic conclusions he came to from the vantage of his role in 'Life'. We see how he too was bound by Fate and therefore concluded that the very best gift he could achieve is to awaken us to our own individual uniqueness and remove the cycles of Fate from human culture. In doing this we become unpredictable. Species survival depends upon such ingenuity.

    semuta wrote:Leto himself speaks of the Safaris he takes into his mind, evocative of the wild jungle. In mayan shamanism there is identified the left and right hemispheres of the brain as the chaotic and lawful, or creative and logical. The correct terms used by mayan shamen are the Nagual and the Tonal. Here, the pyramid & Harums personality come to represent the Tonal (logical) aspect of Leto's persona. His own self stands as the gate between that, and the shadow of the wild worm that increasingly threatens to consume Letos self~identity and wrestle control over the Tyrants body, plunging him into an endless dream.

    Frank Herbert used this sort of symbolic analogy quite a lot, sidestepped a frame of reference from the cultural acceptance of a theme, to come at it from a fresh angle and also that the initiate would be reading the story in a different way to the non initiate. A typical Masonic strategy.

    loremaster wrote:I have no idea where you've pulled this from, but i dont remember Harum being referred to as logical, or any such similar reference. Nor do i rememeber Frank describing any sort of Mayan origin. Why did you include all this?


    Harum is used to help Leto structure his Other Memories so that they do not take possession of him. He has achieved a useful working balance with Harum. Harum is of all resources available to Leto the one he considers his best chance of structuring the other voices. This requires logical thinking. Again the use of symbolism here to steer the reader so that structured thinking is associated with Harum. Since Harum is a pharoah... (the word translates into english as both 'far~seer' and 'one whose voice travels', to use the word 'king' is shorthand, comprising of african components; 'ki' means flow of energy and 'ng' is from 'glottal stop' which means 'to make' and 'of matter' ~ so we use the word King in a similar way; the King is the one whose flow of energy makes the world. I study etymology it explains a great deal.) Since Harum is a pharoah he is associated with Egyptology and to study that reveals the pyramid based systems involved with discovering balance.

    Aside from the spiritualisation of Inundation of the Nile measurements, the famous picture known as 'the weighing of the heart ceremony' has for its symbols a feather (symbol of Maat which is where we get the word Maths, therefore = logic) and heart (representing chaos because it is associated with emotions). All this basic background to egyptian culture highlights why I associated Harum with these concepts. In Leto's position these concepts are indeed relevant. I hope that this adds another layer of depth to your enjoyment of GEoD without setting myself & my research up as a target for people who have not followed the same research. I will be the first to ask what understandings any accusers have of these things! But lets not get personal, thats a waste of time, as the Bene Gesserit teach us.

    The strong Mayan element in Dune is because the Jaguar Priesthood that was the Egyptian priesthood left at the sixth dynasty to found the Aztec Jaguar priesthood whose symbolism is a direct transition from the Egyptian symbolism. It is the same priesthood. I properly use the term 'Mayan' to cover many south American cultural groups all influenced by the same wave and affected backstage by the priesthood because the word means 'Dreamtime' in many languages. When we invoke the physics of dreamtime, lateral sense breaks down and this itself is one major point being discussed in the story. There are many references to Mayan culture in Dune the same as with Egyptology but for now I feel that I have left a lot of information here already for the reader to digest and so I will pick up on that thread at a later date.

    semuta wrote:Leto knew that a pyramid society is fallible. He sought to deny such society any ability to found itself thus cause enslavement. His utopian ideal is a free~forming continually reforming every writhing culture, perpetually.

    The importance of a pyramid structured society is highlighted in relevance to the projections of Letos prescience, the Golden Path. Mentational ability contrasted with the random chaotic nature of tomorrows universe. This is like a recap, shorthand symbolism, for the same subject as it has been explored in the earlier books. In GEoD Frank symbolises that whole concept and has a god debate/explore it within his minds eye.

    loremaster wrote:I'm not sure i really see what you're saying here either? Leto used the memories of ancestors to show him a million ways not to do it, and in his own words those memories "illuminate my path". He saw from internal observations of ancestral experiences that fixing upon a leader, remaining grounded in tradition and choosing easy options lead down into stagnation which is precisely what leto wanted to avoid, that way meant death.
    Remember, Leto does not judge his ancestors, (I am not the iron hammer - which is one of the coolest lines in the best book, IMO). He simply uses their experience to show what new strategy must be followed.


    Yes I agree, that's what I was saying.

    semuta wrote:Frank is doing a few things in similitude here, that the story speaks of both at once, with the same words and passages having multilayered meaning and often playing one off against the other. The 'normal prescient mentat' consciousness that has already been explored with Paul Maud'Dib and with guild Navigators.

    loremaster wrote:You dont need to be a mentat to be prescient. obviously, not all mentats are prescient. Examples of prescients but not mentats include Edric, Alia, Ghanima, Odrade.


    I have placed Mentat ability and Prescience in the same basket here because they contrast as a polarity to chaotic thinking. I have assigned them with the motif of 'triangle' or 'pyramid' because they are a polarity with circle thinking. These are two models for societies.

    Here I draw upon a teaching from the mayan shaman which is also a model in western psychology. That the frontal lobes of the brain are associated with logic on the one hemisphere and creativity on the other hemisphere. It should be evident by now that we are attempting to achieve a balance between these two hemispheres, that is the path of indefinite flow; visualising the Golden Path.

    Prescients can see into the possible futures or where a nexus is due to occur, the one solid future to which we are predestined. Letos achievement was to deny us the ability to do this, a double edged achievement because now we cannot see in advance where a nexus might occur, but that also gives us the ability to get on with our lives without being scried upon by prescient politicians. It is also said that by looking into the future, we shape it; the observer affects the observed.

    Mentats are pure logic and given enough datum can work out what is due to occur in the near future and what is happening around us now. This can be similar to Prescient ability in the ability to know the future.

    A third group would have to be the Ixian No~ships Nav comp, although this mechanical device is not at the time of the Dune books self aware nor capable of prescience. It requires spice mutation to become prescient. Mentats are known as 'human computers'.

    semuta wrote:With Leto this is mutating and taken another step further. While His new insights (the necessity for the development of people who are invisible~to~prescience) are drawn from the techniques of observation applied from his traditions, from his teachings; as consequence of Leto's development of prescient ability, he raises the stakes and therefore the observers awareness level beyond his predecessors. When Leto is looking into the future, it is macrocosmic and all encompassing. After the debate of whether a prescient creates or merely observes the future, Leto determines the answer; by observing, he is establishes the future into which many generations will experience as their lives. In doing so he sets the gameboard fo their lives; they know that he has already seen this. They are fated. And so his gift is to set them free of it.

    loremaster wrote:I agree, Leto used his ancestors to show him the way forward. Stagnation, hero worship, tradition were all limiting humanity. Prescience was another trap. Spice addiction a third. By driving the desire to travel, by eroding all tradition (homogenising life) and by forcing people to be creative, he stopped the downward spiral of stagnation and tradition. To avoid prescience, he created siona and semi-intentionally drove the ixians to create no-fields. To remove spice addiction, he weined society from it over 4,000 years, and in the same time drove tleilaxu to create artificial spice which could be reproduced anywhere, freeing humanity from ties to arrakis.


    By this time the Tleilaxu Facedancers had already taken over the Ixian civilisation. In GEoD and beyond, the Ixians are a front for Tleilaxu. Ixian No~technology is actually Tleilaxu No~technology. Leto knows this of course. He has been watching the blind spots. He might tell us that he barely uses his prescience but I think that is part of his dumbing down campaign. He would not have survived if he was not using it often; I believe that explains what his 'Safaris' are all about.


    semuta wrote:So that when we observe that which is to come through Letos eyes, during his lifetime, as we read GEoD; we are analysing His mind to the best of our ability; as a prescient mentat. This is the pyramid. Yet we know that He is functioning on a level of higher awareness spectrum. He can see further ahead, and as the story progresses the consequences of His alterations to our previous insightful visions are explored at the same time. It has the effect of throwing us out of time, out of linear sequence; away from the pyramid; off the grid.


    loremaster wrote:Just... what? Leto didnt look beyond his lifetime except out of the corner of his prescient eye to see that the golden path continued.


    He only told us that. Leto saw it ALL. It is like when Jessica returns to Arrakis at the beginning of CoD, and the children are lied to. Atreides lie to cover their arses. Even to their own. This is a tool of statecraft. Read it again with this in mind and you will appreciate an entirely different Duniverse. Remember, NEVER TRUST A POLITICIAN!

    FTR I am not claiming that lying is the same thing as 'higher spectrum awareness' although it is an easy parallel. To assume these as the same is to crash & burn. What I originally meant by the statement is something more spiritual. Neither am I boasting about having myself acheived HSA, although at times we all do. I delight and am in awe of Frank Herberts ability to engane the readers mind at multiple levels of cognitive awareness. It adds great credibility to the characters in the story who are functioning on such levels as well as training the reader. Dune is that engaging that we are still puzzling over it many years later, because it goes this deep.


    Our minds are unhinged because we do not know what is happening and at what levels the other characters are functioning. Only when Odrade matures does Frank appear to pick up this thread, because she represents what we are capable of, accelerated. By this era the humans are faster, smarter, better than us.



    This had always been the case. Siona was the new, (And all her descendants) because she felt siaynoq. Because she was fast, agile, free from prescient control and always tried to create the new ("restore the outward view"). Siona was the start.


    loremaster wrote:what?


    No!!!

    loremaster wrote:What?


    pmpl

    loremaster wrote:What?


    ask HOW!!!!

    and incidentally, did you read Sandchiggers comment; what ho?
    Our minds surf energy threads, and we make statements relating to them, based also upon the release of emotional incentive from the heart.
    These are signifiers of how Mayans teach time to work.
    Frank is teaching us such an attunement throughout the books. That is how I know he has studied mayan shamanism. The jaguar priests teach reincarnation/transmigration. Now think about the ghola Idaho recalling all his past life memories. This is comparable to Other Memory. In the original terms established by Dune book 1, that qualifies Idaho as the only true male reverend mother; and just at the point where he comes to understand this about himself, he slips through not only the Sisterhoods fingers, but also leaves the known world... and ends the series.

    So much for universal superbeings.

    loremaster wrote:Siona wasnt a trap, or a test, siona was an achievement. She wasnt there to keep him focussed. She was what he was focussed on creating!


    She is both. She is his pet project, she was a very strong point of his interest. Im not even going to argue this, it works both ways. The focus necessary to achieve the creation.
    Hwi was the trap because she caused Leto to listen to his heart above his mind. Curious Tleilaxu, in trapping him they set him free.

    Idaho is the steady focus for contrast against this ever clouded backdrop of a growing world beyond the grasp of Leto's sight. The awakening consciousness of the ghola who is himself developing similar related abilities. Importantly the ghola is not invisible to Leto's prescience. When I read the book a second time I considered that Idaho remains visible to Leto even after he jumps the No~ship into the Scattering at the end of Chapter House. What happens next is what Leto was watching, creating, forming a culture through thousands of years merely so that this event could occur. It represents survival, encapsulated.


    loremaster wrote:Leto didnt look beyond his death, he says so himself. Duncan was a dampener, he was routinely bred back into the breeding program as a sort of baseline human. I cant remember a quote offhand but their is one. GEoD, i think leto is explaining to moneo the purpose of the duncans.
    He did continue to manipulate events though. I believe (though many disagree) that humanity isnt out of the woods yet, and that part of the golden path included maturing of the bene gesserit to have his wider definition of humanity. The message on the wall is designed to goad the BG into becoming custodians of his golden path. To get off their elitist horse about what constitues humanity, and to stop being a manipulative secret society.


    Leto gave it to Moneo in a context that Moneo could understand. Moneo really is not that important in the overall scheme of things other than as a companion for Leto. Moneo had something about him that Leto has identified in 3500 years of observation to be a rare intelligence amongst humans. I recall he is Siona's uncle or father. Leto was not above lying to pacify Moneo. Leto looked into the future because he left a message for Odrade at sietch Tabr. He looked into the future a lot more than he admitted to people. And what he saw there caused him to simplify everything. He simplified everything by creating people who are invisible to his own prescience. That when he looks into the future now, he sees nothing. It is a beautiful paradox. I question that this is an act of madness, not of sanity.

    Humanity is never out of the woods. We are only just beginning to awaken to the fact that there are things lurking in the woods that are nastier than narwolf, and superior to ourselves in many ways. Things that are predatory in ways that we require breeding gods to understand them. Right back before Paul was born, the Bene Gesserit began a project to create a man who might have insight into such monsters. By the end of the series we are discovering that out there in the scattering are The Onesof Many Faces, and super~evolved facedancers, and worse. Entities that toy with us, could crush us with a whim, and which our most evolved groups are tentative to discuss even amongst themselves. All we know is that as consequence, our elite are raising our abilities in specific ways, and they tell us that this is for species survival. Wake up.

    semuta wrote:Fundamental to understanding the development of Leto's strategy, what he achieves with the GP and what it means, is the readers belief of whether His prescience is Absolute, or limited. The consequence of the Siona line is integral to this question. Leto limits his own prescient vision with his breeding program. Why would he do this? He could have remained a bored god infinitely. That was not his agenda.

    loremaster wrote:Leto wanted to remove the idea of a centralised figure, not become it indefinately (which like chigger said he couldnt do anyway). I believe Leto's prescience to be much more powerful than Paul's, but still limited, and prone to failure. The fact is that he didnt use it on the macrocosmic scale you suggested earlier. He limited it to small uses like "prescient scans" (GEoD) to help manipulate events, he didnt look beyond his time except to see the golden path continued, the direction of the golden path was shown by his past (ancestry). Siona was created to free humanity from ALL prescients, not just his.


    We do not know how far Letos prescient ability extended. We have to be objective. Read it once and consider him a god of limited power. Read it twice and consider him a true god with infinite prescience. Leto created the Golden Pathway but that path was to counter an event which might not have happened during the chronicle. Whatever Idaho travels onward to face explains why Leto acted in the way he did, the changes he made to humanity. He gave us the fight for individual freedom and abilities to hide. Now why would our God do this, do you think?
    Is Leto paranoid, or does He know something that he is not telling us? something we have to work out for ourselves for us to believe and face it. I remind you that Dune is a teaching book, and an important plotline within it is the idea of entities writing manuscripts through human channels. Apply it.

    semuta wrote:Odrade's discovery of sietch Tabr and Leto's message. The scope of Leto's prescience is a big question that the Bene Gesserit still have not resolved even by the end of Chapter House. Frank leaves us as he does the Faithful with this debate, a riddle. In doing so the paradox becomes a koan, and one of the major turning factors that bind such querents to His path. It is a strategy; to keep people steered through the aeons by pondering, are we out of the tunnel yet?

    loremaster wrote:I've done this bit. Leto didnt leave that message through prescience because a)he said so and b)Odrade is Atreides anyway, (siona gene).


    And yet He still saw the need for it, Leto foresaw the event of 'a reverend mother' reading the message He had left there. Even to somebody invisible to prescience.
    Does anybody recall who she was accompanied by on this trip? Because Leto could have seen the activities of any non~Siona gene bearing people who accompanied her and worked it out from this. Alternatively he foresaw other events, perhaps a parallel timestream that the message diverted or perhaps something occuring later that the message is responsible for. At any rate He is still steering society years after his own death with a few key factors.

    loremaster wrote: Are we safe yet? I personally dont think so, not until the BG step up, swallow the numbers of the HM (giving them the numbers to operate on the big scale) and take an active role in humanity, living, loving and dying for it, like leto did.
    [/quote]

    okay I have had it with humungous drafts of text, I'm out of here until someone writes something that catches me fully in the urgent need for my response. Otherwise I'm going to get banned again like what happened last time on another Dune forum.
    That's how I wrote the novel, wanting you to participate with the best of your own imagination. I did not aim for the lowest common denominator and 'write down" to anyone. You and I have a compact and my responsibility is to entertain you as richly as possible, always giving you as much extra as I can. I assume you are intelligent and will enlist your own imagination. You'll see that when you read the Dune excerpt and the other stories in this collection.
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby semuta » 08 Aug 2009 11:44

    Sanchigger, please try to stay focussed on the conversation instead of attacking the other users.
    I recomend you read the Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T E Lawrence
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Pillars_of_Wisdom

    the version I have has a discourse between Lawrence and his editor;
    Editor: please use a uniform spelling throughout the manuscript. On page ... you have spelled it [one way] wheras on page ... you have spelled it [differently]. I noticed many occasions where you have used alternate spellings.
    Lawrence: In translating from phonetic Arabic there is no uniform spelling. Every roadsign spells it differently.


    Although I agree with you Chig, I should be spelling the words as Frank Herbert did. But I am sure he would laugh at the sentiment, considering how important Lawrence of Arabia is as a source for the masterwork. And continues to be. Watch the scene of the movie where Lawrence orders them to 'kill everybody' and then holds the bloodstained knife. Now watch the scene in Lynch's movie Dune after Alia kills the baron. The cinematography is identical. No mistake!

    sandchigger wrote:"I promise you, Kralizec will come," he tells Farad'n. Kralizec is the chaos of the famine times. I believe Leto, raised as a Fremen, was using a Fremen metaphor for the turbulent times he saw coming after his own reign.
    If not, how do you explain that Frank Herbert never uses the term again in the remaining two books? :)


    Yes Leto was using the Fremen legend of the typhoon struggle to describe and prepare people for what was to come. Did he mean the Famine Times or did he mean the Honored Matre or did he mean 'the ones of many faces'? It is not specific; I think as with any legend it is used to refer to all of the above.

    semuta wrote: Did Leto foresee the Ones of Many Faces? Did Leto foresee Honored Matre?
    sandchigger wrote:I rather think not.


    Again we return to the discussion of the extent of Letos prescient ability.
    Reading the books again assuming one version, and again assuming another version...
    That's how I wrote the novel, wanting you to participate with the best of your own imagination. I did not aim for the lowest common denominator and 'write down" to anyone. You and I have a compact and my responsibility is to entertain you as richly as possible, always giving you as much extra as I can. I assume you are intelligent and will enlist your own imagination. You'll see that when you read the Dune excerpt and the other stories in this collection.
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby SandChigger » 08 Aug 2009 11:58

    semuta wrote:Sanchigger, please try to stay focussed on the conversation instead of attacking the other users.
    I recomend you read the Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T E Lawrence

    And I recommend you shove it up your fucking New Age Bullshit arse.

    Yo, admins! Could we have an IP address check on this shithead and compare him to past/current users? :roll:
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby Omphalos » 08 Aug 2009 12:11

    SandChigger wrote:
    semuta wrote:Sanchigger, please try to stay focussed on the conversation instead of attacking the other users.
    I recomend you read the Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T E Lawrence

    And I recommend you shove it up your fucking New Age Bullshit arse.

    Yo, admins! Could we have an IP address check on this shithead and compare him to past/current users? :roll:


    Well, well, well. If it isn't our little Kangamouse.

    The first two strings in his IP address are the same as Kangamouse's.

    Who else do we think this guy is? Newfacedancer? Who was that screwball from Worm's who got the banstick long ago? A bunch of others. I was just commenting about it the other day, but fuck if I can remember now who else I think this guy is.
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby SandChigger » 08 Aug 2009 12:28

    Rakis Holy Nomad! New Age WINGNUT Extraordinaire! :lol:

    Kangamouse ... I remember him now. Tried posting bullshit about canopic jars and Egyptian gods over in the mythology forum on T(A)U. Same ole kundalini in the grass.... ;)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby TheDukester » 08 Aug 2009 12:50

    semuta wrote:Sanchigger, please try to stay focussed on the conversation instead of attacking the other users.

    :lol: :laughing: :lol:

    Yeah, Chiggie! C'mon, man!
    "Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby Serkanner » 08 Aug 2009 12:57

    Aha ... I also thought about Rakis Holy Nomad when I read this incomprehensible shite. Bye bye semuta :greetings-wavingyellow:
    "... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

    “There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

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    and wrote a Dune Novel."
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby semuta » 08 Aug 2009 13:13

    jesus what is it with you guys?
    Hate~mongering is the right word for it!
    you are acting like a pack of animals!
    it's gom jabar time!
    One day, one of you is going to have something happen to you that will make you reconsider your hostility and wonder if there might not be something in all this new age bullshit.
    I have never heard of half of those other identities that you are trying to make out I could possibly be.
    Evidently your prejudice is blocking your objectivity.
    For a Dune forum, why are you preferring to spend your energies on hatred rather than discussing Dune?
    Has it not occurred to you that maybe Frank Herbert was trying to teach you something that you may have overlooked? Or perhaps that I have come here to learn something from you guys about it?
    Non hostile communication might help you actually progress.
    Why are you so angry for?
    T H Lawrence is hardly new age bullshit.
    If you ever read it or watch the film you will understand that. Or is a 3 hour movie too much for you to cope with?
    help me help me this one has a brain! kill it quick
    splat!
    pmpl
    once the hatred has calmed down and the idea that there are other emotions than hatred, anger and taking the piss, maybe you will please contact this websites owner to take an unbiased review of the situation here.
    That's how I wrote the novel, wanting you to participate with the best of your own imagination. I did not aim for the lowest common denominator and 'write down" to anyone. You and I have a compact and my responsibility is to entertain you as richly as possible, always giving you as much extra as I can. I assume you are intelligent and will enlist your own imagination. You'll see that when you read the Dune excerpt and the other stories in this collection.
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby semuta » 08 Aug 2009 13:30

    okay I get the hint.
    I have much better things to do with my time anyway, for example lobbying against the corrupt USA corporation about their Agenda 21 which you might want to look into while you still can.

    As for the Swine flu, my advice to you lot is to be very grateful to your benevolent & caring rogue government and accept their vaccination program with great welcome and open arms. In fact make sure you keep going back to the chemists and get as much of that juice into your systems as you possibly can. Your immunity systems will need it.Tamiflu is pretty good too, hit your kids up with a big strong dose of that shit.

    Because the crap you are breathing in from the chemtrails that the people you p[ay your taxes to are dropping on your heads and fluoride in the tap water that you are drinking, you are going to need to think about what the rest of the world really thinks about whether depopulation of the USA is such a great tragedy after all considering the level of humane behavior evident in your attitude.

    sukran
    That's how I wrote the novel, wanting you to participate with the best of your own imagination. I did not aim for the lowest common denominator and 'write down" to anyone. You and I have a compact and my responsibility is to entertain you as richly as possible, always giving you as much extra as I can. I assume you are intelligent and will enlist your own imagination. You'll see that when you read the Dune excerpt and the other stories in this collection.
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