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    Leto-Harum

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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby semuta » 13 Aug 2009 19:43

    sandchigger wrote:Learned at the feet of (=kneeling before?) your guide in some cranny of the ruins of Luxor, right? :laughing-rolling:

    yeah but she was worth it, and I have to do something for money & kicks, right?
    That's how I wrote the novel, wanting you to participate with the best of your own imagination. I did not aim for the lowest common denominator and 'write down" to anyone. You and I have a compact and my responsibility is to entertain you as richly as possible, always giving you as much extra as I can. I assume you are intelligent and will enlist your own imagination. You'll see that when you read the Dune excerpt and the other stories in this collection.
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby Freakzilla » 13 Aug 2009 19:56

    Comparing Leto's to RM's OM is a mistake, Leto was pre-born and has total recal of every ancestors memories. The only way for him to overcome possession was to become a composite of all those lives. RM OM comes to them in time of need and they only purposely seek it out with permission and guidance.

    By the BG definition he was an abomination.
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby SandChigger » 13 Aug 2009 20:35

    semuta wrote:
    sandchigger wrote:You proved the opposite with that crap about a Heighliner "accidently" crashing into Chapter House. A Heighliner crashes into Wallach IX in one of the House books. :)

    You might find if you read some of Frank Herberts books as well

    Fuck you.

    ...that this incident is mentioned in either Heretics of Dune of Chapter House Dune, I can't recall which because I always read these two back to back since one is a continuation of the other & follows the same storylines.

    Always a convenient excuse with you, isn't it? Put up the quote or shut up, wingnut.

    okay Sandchigger, I have identified you have less interest in talking about Dune and a lot of interest in niggling at me hoping to provoke me into your game. I will not play along because I have no interest in playing childish games. I am using this Dune forum to speak with Dune fans about Dune, which is an open topic. I would prefer to remain progressive and sociable in my interactions with other users. I hope that you can sort out you issues. Thanks for the advice about the tag codes.

    No, you're not here to "speak...about Dune", you're here to spread your usual wares of bullshit.

    semuta wrote:I have to do something for money & kicks, right?

    I thought you had "counseling clients" and the Internet for that. :)
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby semuta » 13 Aug 2009 21:59

    Freakzilla wrote:Comparing Leto's to RM's OM is a mistake, Leto was pre-born and has total recal of every ancestors memories. The only way for him to overcome possession was to become a composite of all those lives. RM OM comes to them in time of need and they only purposely seek it out with permission and guidance.

    By the BG definition he was an abomination.


    And yet He taught them quite a few things :D
    So how much of Leto himself do you think was 'doing the thinking' toward the end of his life, and how much of it was the hive-mind of the composite?
    I think that Leto's archives, the Stolen Journals etc, were all designed to create a culture that would be asking just such these questions, by those characters who would be capable of understanding them. I had read Odrade in light of this, her character is there as a response to the need for such a character to emerge. And she knew it. Leto made her become aware of it, which caused her to further sharp focus understanding of her own role. Sea Child emerges as an escape route from her life which might otherwise have been a trap, fated and then toyed with by a god, her ancestor.
    The levels of self awareness going on in these books is often hard to talk about.
    That's how I wrote the novel, wanting you to participate with the best of your own imagination. I did not aim for the lowest common denominator and 'write down" to anyone. You and I have a compact and my responsibility is to entertain you as richly as possible, always giving you as much extra as I can. I assume you are intelligent and will enlist your own imagination. You'll see that when you read the Dune excerpt and the other stories in this collection.
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby SandChigger » 13 Aug 2009 22:09

    semuta wrote:The levels of self awareness going on in these books is often hard to talk about.

    Aw, go on, cupcake, keep giving it your best dizzy whirl. :)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby semuta » 14 Aug 2009 09:06

    chig lay off mate i dont want to have to report you for harrassment of other members on this site but you are breaking their rules by continuing to harrass me like this and I dont want any part in that. Im here to talk about Dune.
    That's how I wrote the novel, wanting you to participate with the best of your own imagination. I did not aim for the lowest common denominator and 'write down" to anyone. You and I have a compact and my responsibility is to entertain you as richly as possible, always giving you as much extra as I can. I assume you are intelligent and will enlist your own imagination. You'll see that when you read the Dune excerpt and the other stories in this collection.
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Aug 2009 09:42

    semuta wrote:So how much of Leto himself do you think was 'doing the thinking' toward the end of his life, and how much of it was the hive-mind of the composite?


    None. The worm never did any of his thinking and I don't know what you mean by "hive mind".

    He was a symbiote, if may be easier if you think of Leto as a human incased in a worm. At the begining he had total control of the sandtrout but as it grew into a worm he began losing control.

    It never controlled him.
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby semuta » 14 Aug 2009 10:20

    The composite of all those Other Memory voices/personas, structured by Harum who Leto had 'enlisted' to put them into a structure so they could not consume him. His mind becomes a society. This is what I mean by the term 'hive mind'; many minds all functioning as one. For example, to consider a whole ant hive as a single entity, not as many separate individual creatures. The same way that we are being taught to consider humanity on this planet to understand what we are doing here; not as many individuals but as one organism. Species as singularity.

    I think that because Leto is dealing with all this in his own internal psychology, he is using that as a model when he looks externally at the human society. He does not want it to be a singular entity because that can be destroyed more easily with one blow. So he encourages it to divide itself into many many isolated self reliant factions, during the Scattering. There can be no singular power-base now, and because of this the species is more likely to survive. This is poetically symbolised by his own body segregating into all the sandtrout again at his death. And the Tleilaxu facedancers parallel this segregation thing, by taking another stance on it. Other Memory is also similar, where abomination is concerned because theoretically one strong voice of OM could rise up within many rm's in unison, this would be another analysis of a hive-mind although I don't think FH went there, he suggested it as a potential by developing a culture where such emergence are available given the right conditions.

    I seriously believe that if there were to have been a book 7, this would have been its subject matter at some level of cognitive awareness, because the preceding books had set up the approach for such discussion. Pinky&theBrain with their robots might have done something similar with digital consciousness, I wouldn't know because I didnt read their crap.
    That's how I wrote the novel, wanting you to participate with the best of your own imagination. I did not aim for the lowest common denominator and 'write down" to anyone. You and I have a compact and my responsibility is to entertain you as richly as possible, always giving you as much extra as I can. I assume you are intelligent and will enlist your own imagination. You'll see that when you read the Dune excerpt and the other stories in this collection.
    FH, Intro to Eye
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    Posts: 105
    Joined: 07 Aug 2009 18:06
    Location: cloaked orbital platform

    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby Omphalos » 14 Aug 2009 11:09

    semuta wrote:chig lay off mate i dont want to have to report you for harrassment of other members on this site but you are breaking their rules by continuing to harrass me like this and I dont want any part in that. Im here to talk about Dune.


    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby TheDukester » 14 Aug 2009 11:13

    If we could just get that wingnut Martian Bob to join this site and get in a big, long debate with this guy, I could die a happy man.
    "Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby SandRider » 14 Aug 2009 11:43

    semuta wrote:chig lay off mate i dont want to have to report you for harrassment of other members on this site but you are breaking their rules by continuing to harrass me like this and I dont want any part in that. Im here to talk about Dune.



    to quote the late, great George Carlin :

    Go fuck yourself.
    ................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby SandRider » 14 Aug 2009 11:45

    semuta wrote:The composite of all those Other Memory voices/personas, structured by Harum who Leto had 'enlisted' to put them into a structure so they could not consume him. His mind becomes a society. This is what I mean by the term 'hive mind'; many minds all functioning as one. For example, to consider a whole ant hive as a single entity, not as many separate individual creatures. The same way that we are being taught to consider humanity on this planet to understand what we are doing here; not as many individuals but as one organism. Species as singularity.

    I think that because Leto is dealing with all this in his own internal psychology, he is using that as a model when he looks externally at the human society. He does not want it to be a singular entity because that can be destroyed more easily with one blow. So he encourages it to divide itself into many many isolated self reliant factions, during the Scattering. There can be no singular power-base now, and because of this the species is more likely to survive. This is poetically symbolised by his own body segregating into all the sandtrout again at his death. And the Tleilaxu facedancers parallel this segregation thing, by taking another stance on it. Other Memory is also similar, where abomination is concerned because theoretically one strong voice of OM could rise up within many rm's in unison, this would be another analysis of a hive-mind although I don't think FH went there, he suggested it as a potential by developing a culture where such emergence are available given the right conditions.

    I seriously believe that if there were to have been a book 7, this would have been its subject matter at some level of cognitive awareness, because the preceding books had set up the approach for such discussion. Pinky&theBrain with their robots might have done something similar with digital consciousness, I wouldn't know because I didnt read their crap.



    :teasing-blah: :teasing-blah: :teasing-blah: :teasing-blah: :teasing-blahyellow:
    ................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
    ImageImage

    I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
    how to fully interact with people.
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    Re: Leto-Harum

    Postby SandChigger » 14 Aug 2009 14:13

    semuta wrote:chig lay off mate i dont want to have to report you for harrassment of other members on this site but you are breaking their rules by continuing to harrass me like this and I dont want any part in that. Im here to talk about Dune.

    Blow a gasket, tutti-frutti. Need any help with that? :roll:

    Plus what SandRider said, with a big ribbon and bow on top. :)
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