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    Siaynoq

    Postby Mandy » 19 Jul 2009 19:27

    I've always wanted to talk to about "Siaynoq" but I never could think of a good way to start a discussion... so I'll just go the lame route and ask: What do you think it means? I just read the chapter in GEoD where Leto explains the meaning of the word to Moneo, but I never quite got what the revelation Moneo has later in the book when he says "Siaynoq, I believe!". Also, I wonder if the Fish Speaker guards had the same definitions for the word as the ones Leto gave to Moneo.

    Leto's definitions:

    "Siaynoq means giving honor to one who speaks with sincerity. It signifies the remembrance of things which are spoken with sincerity."

    "... Siaynoq also contains the idea of light as that which reveals reality. You continue to shine light on what you see."

    "... Siaynoq also stands for fermentation because reality - or the belief that you know a reality, which is the same thing - always sets up a ferment in the universe."

    "Siaynoq also contains the summoning to prayer and the name of the Recording Angel, Sihaya, who interrogates the newly dead."
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jul 2009 09:58

    I didn't understand it until I read Heretics of Dune. I know that's a terrible answer to your question but I don't think it is explained in GEoD. As shown to us in GEoD, it is basically a sharing cerimony between Leto and his Fish Speakers. I don't think it was anything mere mortals could understand given our short term view. It is more of a feeling than an understanding. It's an unconscious language language that Leto uses to bind his army to himself.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Mandy » 20 Jul 2009 12:26

    I have read Heretics a few times, but I don't think I ever read it looking for an answer to Siaynoq. I'll have to read it with that in mind this time.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Jul 2009 12:43

    Mandy wrote:I have read Heretics a few times, but I don't think I ever read it looking for an answer to Siaynoq. I'll have to read it with that in mind this time.


    SPOILER!!!

    Odrade contemplates its meaning after watching the pilgram's dance in the Arrakeen Square, which is what Siaynoq has evolved into (Sheeana uses her dance to call Shaitain (Leto's remnants)), and after witnessing a demonstration of Honored Matre sexual bonding techniques she notices that the rythym used is the same as the dance. Siaynoq evolved into the sexual bonding techniques in The Scattering.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Frybread » 20 Jul 2009 15:53

    Mandy wrote:I've always wanted to talk to about "Siaynoq" but I never could think of a good way to start a discussion... so I'll just go the lame route and ask: What do you think it means? I just read the chapter in GEoD where Leto explains the meaning of the word to Moneo, but I never quite got what the revelation Moneo has later in the book when he says "Siaynoq, I believe!". Also, I wonder if the Fish Speaker guards had the same definitions for the word as the ones Leto gave to Moneo.

    Leto's definitions:

    "Siaynoq means giving honor to one who speaks with sincerity. It signifies the remembrance of things which are spoken with sincerity."

    "... Siaynoq also contains the idea of light as that which reveals reality. You continue to shine light on what you see."

    "... Siaynoq also stands for fermentation because reality - or the belief that you know a reality, which is the same thing - always sets up a ferment in the universe."

    "Siaynoq also contains the summoning to prayer and the name of the Recording Angel, Sihaya, who interrogates the newly dead."


    I think Moneo, as he was falling to his death, had an epiphany and came to fully understand the Golden Path -- that humanity would be OK without the God Emperor.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Rakis » 20 Jul 2009 22:18

    Freakzilla wrote:I didn't understand it until I read Heretics of Dune. I know that's a terrible answer to your question but I don't think it is explained in GEoD. As shown to us in GEoD, it is basically a sharing cerimony between Leto and his Fish Speakers. I don't think it was anything mere mortals could understand given our short term view. It is more of a feeling than an understanding. It's an unconscious language language that Leto uses to bind his army to himself.


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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Mandy » 21 Jul 2009 13:19

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Mandy wrote:I have read Heretics a few times, but I don't think I ever read it looking for an answer to Siaynoq. I'll have to read it with that in mind this time.


    SPOILER!!!

    Odrade contemplates its meaning after watching the pilgram's dance in the Arrakeen Square, which is what Siaynoq has evolved into (Sheeana uses her dance to call Shaitain (Leto's remnants)), and after witnessing a demonstration of Honored Matre sexual bonding techniques she notices that the rythym used is the same as the dance. Siaynoq evolved into the sexual bonding techniques in The Scattering.


    That is foreshadowed in GEoD when Siona is being tested. Leto tells her about the marriage dance Fremen women performed that mimicked a dust devil. I don't think Leto looked far enough ahead to see the HM, though... do you?
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 21 Jul 2009 13:38

    Mandy wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Mandy wrote:I have read Heretics a few times, but I don't think I ever read it looking for an answer to Siaynoq. I'll have to read it with that in mind this time.


    SPOILER!!!

    Odrade contemplates its meaning after watching the pilgram's dance in the Arrakeen Square, which is what Siaynoq has evolved into (Sheeana uses her dance to call Shaitain (Leto's remnants)), and after witnessing a demonstration of Honored Matre sexual bonding techniques she notices that the rythym used is the same as the dance. Siaynoq evolved into the sexual bonding techniques in The Scattering.


    That is foreshadowed in GEoD when Siona is being tested. Leto tells her about the marriage dance Fremen women performed that mimicked a dust devil. I don't think Leto looked far enough ahead to see the HM, though... do you?


    No, even if he did, many of them would have the Siona Gene and he would not see them anyway.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby mrpsbrk » 21 Jul 2009 18:11

    Mandy wrote:I've always wanted to talk to about "Siaynoq" but I never could think of a good way to start a discussion... so I'll just go the lame route and ask: What do you think it means? I just read the chapter in GEoD where Leto explains the meaning of the word to Moneo, but I never quite got what the revelation Moneo has later in the book when he says "Siaynoq, I believe!". Also, I wonder if the Fish Speaker guards had the same definitions for the word as the ones Leto gave to Moneo.


    Freak's answer is obviously much better than my own, but...

    To me, Siaynoq has always been pretty straightforwardly the religious experience. Many religions have some form of ritual whereby a believer comes into direct contact with the holy, be it called "baptism" or "initiation" or whatever. Another parallel is the many different "rites of passage". For example, i think the Fremem spice-orgies are not too distant from Siaynoq.

    I am not really a serious researcher into those subjects, but nevertheless i believe if you dig you can find endless accounts of such experiences. And even though you can make a distanced, disinfected account of such experiences, the description from someone who has lived the experience first-hand is more likely to be convoluted and full of allusions, just like GEoD's descriptions of Siaynoq.

    Instead of dismissing religion, Marx-style or Dawkins-style, i think Frank sees religion as another tool or path that humanity did and can use to further it's own adventure into the universe. So, when Leto 2nd proposes to use it, he embraces the whole thing, together with the deep-trance-like rites.

    Being Leto's religion a kick-ass religion, his baptism had to be kick-ass too!

    The sexual bondings that Freak brings up, the way i see it, actually sing to the same tune: the community becomes one through such rites. The sexual bonding might be said to be a more "manageable" way of the thing, one that can be "handled" one-on-one.

    Also, i believe that Siona's test might also be seen as a form of the same rite: initiation by the God-Emperor. The collective version would be much more powerful, but also much less under control, and as such not as suitable to such a central (?) piece of the GP as Siona... Though, now that i say it, i am not really sure that Siona does not witness Siaynoq, anyone care to check. (Even if she does, it wouldn't invalidate the possibility of she going through the ritual twice, like for example Catholics have baptism and then chrism...)
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Mandy » 21 Jul 2009 19:37

    I'm not looking for answers, I'm looking for a discussion :P

    Siona was trained in the Fish Speaker schools, so it's possible she has attended Siaynoq. The book never specifically mentions it, though.

    Siona's test, and Moneo's (and thousands before them, I imagine) could be considered Siaynoq in a way. They were being sensitized to the GP, and the GP is all about the continuation of humankind. If Siaynoq had its roots in the Fremen marriage dance and evolved into the HM sexual bonding, then Siaynoq is about the continuation of humankind through procreation (among other things).

    I am just now reading the last couple chapters of GEoD.. ever conversation Leto has with Moneo is leading up to the revelation Moneo has just before he dies.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Omphalos » 21 Jul 2009 20:36

    Mandy wrote:I'm not looking for answers, I'm looking for a discussion :P


    Geez, I just had this same conversation twenty minutes ago at home.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Rakis » 21 Jul 2009 22:39

    Omphalos wrote:
    Mandy wrote:I'm not looking for answers, I'm looking for a discussion :P


    Geez, I just had this same conversation twenty minutes ago at home.


    Deja vu... :shock: :lol:

    From Dune wiki:

    Siaynoq was a religious orgiastic, ecstatic sexual experience involving Fish Speaker leaders who were called to Arrakis every ten years to commune with the God Emperor Leto II in his Fesitval City of On.

    Every 10 years the women leaders of were gathered together from all over the Imperium, in a large ampitheater that Leto had built on Arrakis. The women were arranged in a giant circle, and the God Emperor would appear. After 3 to 4 hours of chanting Leto's name, and hearing him speak to them in intimate ways, the women would crescendo in a ecstatic ritual with Leto as their focus.

    It is rumored that after Leto's death, and the subsequent colonization of planets by the Fish Speakers during The Scattering, that the remnant and corruption of the concepts of Sianyoq, became one of the foundations of the Honored Matres sexual enslavement of males.


    It's quite a simplistic way to describe it, i think they left behind the themes of faith and the GP, but like Mandy said, the procreation or sexual aspect is there.

    Maybe Siaynoq comes from the spice orgy as well?... :think:
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Jul 2009 07:58

    The wiki article forgets to mention that the Fish Speakers invited to attend bring their babies, if they have them.

    I don't think they were in a circle, either. They filled the room.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby trang » 22 Jul 2009 08:51

    While I know its not Canon.. the DE gives a pretty detailed explanation of the origins, ritual, passage, ceremony, conclusion, and eventual demise of siaynoq.

    I know Mandy said that she wanted more discussion than answers, so just throwing out some of what it says, to further the discussion.

    It says the ritual goes back to the earliest Zensunni, and stems from event called "Siayla" meaning "the Light of truth" they gathered and discussed the progress toward the religious goals of the year.

    After Zensunni migrations, it manifested into more of a presided event, listening to the words of the Sayyadina's.
    They moved to Arrakis.. and became the Fremen... and the ritual moved to the spice orgy.. more of a sharing and bonding than just all out sex crazy thing, at least thats how its described.

    Leto took it from there, it has been called "the great Sharing" and "the feast of Leto"

    The would renew vows to each other, honor those Fish speakers leaving service.. staying in service. They would pass around wafers with spice in it, a throw back to the fremen spice orgy. Leto would bring out Muad Dib's dagger and show it to all, and then move to completion.

    The thing got big and attendence was reduced to those stationed on Arrakis and 3 representatives from each off world planet. (and yes held every decade)

    Now you couple the above with the intial passages Mandy stated, It seems to me the straight forward renewel of the bonding... to continue the growth of the fish speakers fanatic beilef in Leto, I believe that is the fermentation portion, not so much the sex or procreation idea.

    I wonder if the fish speakers new of the Golden Path? have to look on my reread.
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    Re: Siaynoq & Moneo

    Postby Spicelon » 22 Jul 2009 09:32

    This might be best split off into its own thread, but...Mandy and I emailed a bit about Moneo's last words as
    he was falling in the chasm. What was that about? We all know that Moneo was struggling with something
    all throughout GEoD. He'd been tested, so his belief in the GP, or the truth of the GP, can be assumed. But
    what was he getting hung up on? Leto's Godhood? As he fell did he finally embrace it?

    I am not currently reading any of the books, but I've always wondered what that was about and if maybe it
    was just me not putting the clues together, or maybe the clues are bolder-sized and I'm just an idiot. Thanks!
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Mandy » 22 Jul 2009 13:27

    You're not an idiot :P Figuring out what Moneo's revelation was is the reason I started the thread in the first place. At the end he believed, which makes me think before that he believed but didn't understand why he believed... just like all of us! I want to know what clicked in his head.

    trang, I haven't read the DE but I'd like to, especially after reading what you posted. Those explanations sound very similar to what Leto told Moneo in the beginning. The light of truth, and sharing.

    I think maybe what we're leaving out of Siaynoq is "love". More than just romantic love, but love of life.. I don't know I had a big smart sounding discussion all planned out in my head but it evaporated, lol.
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    Re: Siaynoq & Moneo

    Postby Frybread » 28 Jul 2009 10:15

    Spicelon wrote:This might be best split off into its own thread, but...Mandy and I emailed a bit about Moneo's last words as
    he was falling in the chasm. What was that about? We all know that Moneo was struggling with something
    all throughout GEoD. He'd been tested, so his belief in the GP, or the truth of the GP, can be assumed. But
    what was he getting hung up on? Leto's Godhood? As he fell did he finally embrace it?

    I am not currently reading any of the books, but I've always wondered what that was about and if maybe it
    was just me not putting the clues together, or maybe the clues are bolder-sized and I'm just an idiot. Thanks!


    Before he was falling to his death, Moneo didn't fully understand the Golden Path or Leto's role in it, since he couldn't accept a universe without the God Emperor even though he had seen it in his spice vision.

    However, as he and Leto were falling to their deaths, I think Moneo's mind opened and he finally understood that the God Emperor was just a tool to ensure the Golden Path.

    I think I need to reread GEoD again, since there are parts of the novel that I can't remember to make an effective summary of the final scene. But that, in a nutshell, is what I got from it.
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    Re: Siaynoq & Moneo

    Postby Freakzilla » 28 Jul 2009 10:18

    Frybread wrote:I think I need to reread GEoD again, since there are parts of the novel that I can't remember to make an effective summary of the final scene. But that, in a nutshell, is what I got from it.


    *ahem*

    GEoD Chapter Summaries
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    Re: Siaynoq & Moneo

    Postby Frybread » 28 Jul 2009 10:21

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Frybread wrote:I think I need to reread GEoD again, since there are parts of the novel that I can't remember to make an effective summary of the final scene. But that, in a nutshell, is what I got from it.


    *ahem*

    GEoD Chapter Summaries



    Thanks. I must say those chapter summaries were very helpful in my first reading of GEoD. I do need to reread it again, however, since I just realized in this discussion that I have forgotten alot of the story.

    Also, I will need something to read this fall since I have sworn off the McDune novels.
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    Re: Siaynoq & Moneo

    Postby Freakzilla » 28 Jul 2009 10:22

    Frybread wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Frybread wrote:I think I need to reread GEoD again, since there are parts of the novel that I can't remember to make an effective summary of the final scene. But that, in a nutshell, is what I got from it.


    *ahem*

    GEoD Chapter Summaries



    Thanks. I must say those chapter summaries were very helpful in my first reading of GEoD. I do need to reread it again, however, since I just realized in this discussion that I have forgotten alot of the story.

    Also, I will need something to read this fall since I have sworn off the McDune novels.


    Please comment on the summaries when you do. I could be way of on some of my interpretations.
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    Re: Siaynoq & Moneo

    Postby Frybread » 28 Jul 2009 10:39

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Frybread wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Frybread wrote:I think I need to reread GEoD again, since there are parts of the novel that I can't remember to make an effective summary of the final scene. But that, in a nutshell, is what I got from it.


    *ahem*

    GEoD Chapter Summaries



    Thanks. I must say those chapter summaries were very helpful in my first reading of GEoD. I do need to reread it again, however, since I just realized in this discussion that I have forgotten alot of the story.

    Also, I will need something to read this fall since I have sworn off the McDune novels.


    Please comment on the summaries when you do. I could be way of on some of my interpretations.


    Will do.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby loremaster » 29 Jul 2009 10:25

    having just recently reread GEoD i have a somewhat different take to you guys.

    To me, Siaynoq was more about that great sharing of humanity. It was about that feeling of vitality and acting according to some sort of inner compass towards the "right" (not necessarily "nice") action. He seemed to think that humanity had turned from this simple inner compass with distractions such as politics, law and to some degree, science. He disapproved of reductionism in science/technology (RE: ixian rants) and he promoted the holisitic, all encompassing view towards humanity ("my family is much bigger than yours... defintion of humanity to the BG....."Humanity by whatever definition") and its place within the universe.

    Siaynoq was about getting in touch with that inner compass, that "human" compass and following it, even if it may have at some points seemed cruel, harsh or innapropriate (remember: he LOVES Siona because of her ability to create the new, to embrace change, and to carry on siaynoq).

    I think he felt Duncan often followed it, that outward optimistic view towards the future. Moneo was ultimately conservative (Letos words.... and "it's too dangerous") which Leto viewed as a bad thing. The idea of conservatism was clouded by rose tinted spectacles and historians and because of his unique memories this allowed him to see tradition and conservatism for hwat it really was. Hwi was almost the embodiment of a "good" human, and doesnt leto himself say the fish speakers are disturbed because here is one who knows siaynoq better than they?

    In short, Siaynoq was about "getting in touch, dont think, do it" and about embracing the new, and change, and not clinging to roots of the past. It involves accepting all humanity as your brotherhood and your responsibility and acting AT ALL TIMES in it's best interests.

    There are hundreds of quotes by Frank through the books about this idea, and one i read from him ages ago which i dont think appeared in the chronicles anywhere:

    "The right course of action can always be identified by your own response to it. It instils in you that feeling of something which you have always known, but temporarily forgotten".
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby desert demon » 31 Jul 2009 01:01

    :|
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby SandChigger » 31 Jul 2009 02:40

    Um ... something sexual? :?


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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 31 Jul 2009 08:11

    desert demon wrote:...what would the dancers imitating the movement of the worm pushing through the heavily crowded square look like from Odrades vantage view point?


    You mean Sheeana and her phalanx of priests that passes through the croud durring the pilgram's dance?
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