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    Siaynoq

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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby mrpsbrk » 04 Jun 2010 14:11

    Freakzilla wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:Isn't it just too convenient that our very own Siona 2.0, namely Sheeana, appears on the BG plate instead of "out there" in the scattered worlds?


    Where else would someone who can control the worms appear?

    :crazy:


    Except, well, she can't. She is just not eaten up by them. But basically they do not obey her: when the work takes Odrade to Sietch Tabr, Sheeana has no idea what is going on, and basically when the worm "says" end of the line she obediently drops off.

    This sounds more like "Shaitan likes Sheeana" than "Sheeana is the boss". Like Leto was the boss, but He liked Siona. The relationship seems to me to imply that both Leto and his "pearl" took Siona/Sheeana to be something more than just a interchangeable piece in a vast game.

    Do you want to take away all philosophy from Dune and just fscking stick to the point? But again and again we've been proven that the Dune Chronicles just does not work if you try to remove FH's philosophising from it.

    FH in GEoD wrote:Leto smiled. "Duncan, have I not told you that when you think you know something, that is a most perfect barrier against learning?"


    You'll reply, i am guessing, "it's the invisibility :crazy:". I have long pondered that one. And i think the whole prescience thing is yet another metaphor. We all "see the future", in a way. When i drop a glass from my hand i "see" it break in the ground before it actually does. In the same way, when i vote "democrat" i see how a democrat "should" behave -- and thus i blind myself to the failings that certainly are going to come.

    I think the prescience thing is yet another metaphor. A metaphor for fear, for believing in God rather than yourself.

    And i think that Leto was trying to find in Siona not "invisibility to prescience", but wisdom. The same wisdom that Leto recommends to Duncan before saying that "knowing something is a barrier". This wisdom would render her free from this enslaving to her own fears and prejudices -- it also rendered her invisible to His prescience, true, but this is just an embellishment and not the real deal.

    FH in GEoD - the same dialogue as the previous quote wrote:"More mumbo jumbo."

    "You made that mistake once before."


    8)
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby merkin muffley » 04 Jun 2010 14:37

    mrpsbrk wrote:Do you want to take away all philosophy from Dune and just fscking stick to the point? But again and again we've been proven that the Dune Chronicles just does not work if you try to remove FH's philosophising from it.


    Nobody's saying that, it's just all muddled and fscking vague.

    EDIT: brevity
    Last edited by merkin muffley on 06 Jun 2010 16:36, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby TheDukester » 04 Jun 2010 14:42

    mrpsbrk wrote:I think the prescience thing is yet another metaphor. A metaphor for fear, for believing in God rather than yourself.

    Holy shit, I've stayed out of this up until this point, but I can't help myself here ...

    HUH?
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 04 Jun 2010 17:28

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:Isn't it just too convenient that our very own Siona 2.0, namely Sheeana, appears on the BG plate instead of "out there" in the scattered worlds?


    Where else would someone who can control the worms appear?

    :crazy:


    Except, well, she can't. She is just not eaten up by them. But basically they do not obey her: when the work takes Odrade to Sietch Tabr, Sheeana has no idea what is going on, and basically when the worm "says" end of the line she obediently drops off.


    There are times when she gives the worm orders and it obeys. Don't have the quotes in front of me, but I specifically noticed them during my last reread.

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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 Jun 2010 18:08

    Hunchback Jack wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:Isn't it just too convenient that our very own Siona 2.0, namely Sheeana, appears on the BG plate instead of "out there" in the scattered worlds?


    Where else would someone who can control the worms appear?

    :crazy:


    Except, well, she can't. She is just not eaten up by them. But basically they do not obey her: when the work takes Odrade to Sietch Tabr, Sheeana has no idea what is going on, and basically when the worm "says" end of the line she obediently drops off.


    There are times when she gives the worm orders and it obeys. Don't have the quotes in front of me, but I specifically noticed them during my last reread.

    HBJ


    And nevermind that that wasn't even remotely Freak's point - regardless of the semantics of the word "control" he meant that for her to have appeared somewhere without worms would have been ridiculous (how would anyone ever know?). Thus, it is foolish to attach any importants beyond that to her location - THERE WAS NOWHERE ELSE SHE COULD HAVE BEEN (aside from maybe some tiny tiny unliklihood that is so small as to not be mentioned.)
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Jun 2010 19:30

    The worms obeyed Sheeana unless her wishes conflicted with theirs.

    They came when she called them and left when she asked them to. Compared to everyone else in the universe, that is serious control.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby mrpsbrk » 04 Jun 2010 23:40

    Freakzilla wrote:
    SandRider wrote:BTW, what's Siaynoq ?


    I think it's a Polynesian egg dish.


    Given that the Fish Speakers actually believed Leto II to be God, no less, Siaynoq would be akin to actually touching Lennon's hands. More than one teenage girl has been brought to tears over it.

    Also, it seems He believed His god-ness too. I wonder that He referred to it as the "Godhead", at some points, which is not exactly a common word. It seems to come from Judaism, but there are also other possibilities...
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby merkin muffley » 05 Jun 2010 01:18

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    SandRider wrote:BTW, what's Siaynoq ?


    I think it's a Polynesian egg dish.


    ...It seems to come from Judaism, but there are also other possibilities...


    I think it's a Polynesian egg dish.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby SandChigger » 05 Jun 2010 02:35

    Yes, but the ultimate origin is the Indian subcontinent. Just ask purnima! Oh she will be telling you alotta you no know now, making you feel like a regular chai-wallah!

    mrpsbrk wrote:Given that the Fish Speakers actually believed Leto II to be God, no less, Siaynoq would be akin to actually touching Lennon's hands. More than one teenage girl has been brought to tears over it.

    Touching Lennon's hands? John Lennon? Eeeew! I'd wash my hands after that myself, considering how his hands were usually up Yoyo Oko's perschwanky (Btw, have you ever heard her say that word? It's hilarious! Pelushuwankee! That's what she says! :lol: ) at some point during the day.

    Also, it seems He believed His god-ness too. I wonder that He referred to it as the "Godhead", at some points, which is not exactly a common word. It seems to come from Judaism, but there are also other possibilities...

    No he didn't. Believe in his own godhead. No, it's not that common a word, since the -head suffix is no longer productive in Modern English. We would say godhood now. According to Wiktionary, godhead is first attested in the Ancrene Riuwle or "Guide for Anchoresses", a monastic rule (or manual) for anchoresses, ca. 1225. (WP) It is a Middle English word, obviously used in a Christian context, and Christianity is a heretical mystery religion offshoot of Judaism, but that's a rather abrupt summation to jump straight to the Jews for the origin of the word, no?

    But then, most of your thought processes seem to do butt-violence to either the truth or logic or both. :)
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby merkin muffley » 05 Jun 2010 08:47

    SandChigger wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:I wonder that He referred to it as the "Godhead", at some points, which is not exactly a common word. It seems to come from Judaism, but there are also other possibilities...

    No he didn't. Believe in his own godhead. No, it's not that common a word, since the -head suffix is no longer productive in Modern English. We would say godhood now. According to Wiktionary, godhead is first attested in the Ancrene Riuwle or "Guide for Anchoresses", a monastic rule (or manual) for anchoresses, ca. 1225. (WP) It is a Middle English word, obviously used in a Christian context, and Christianity is a heretical mystery religion offshoot of Judaism, but that's a rather abrupt summation to jump straight to the Jews for the origin of the word, no?

    But then, most of your thought processes seem to do butt-violence to either the truth or logic or both. :)

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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Jun 2010 08:53

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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby mrpsbrk » 05 Jun 2010 09:11

    SandChigger wrote:Touching Lennon's hands? John Lennon? Eeeew!


    Gross for Gross, i don't think a Giant Worm (no matter how much capitalization i use) is any less gross than that wierd japanese chick. And, well, he was more popular than jaisys, so they say.

    SandChigger wrote:According to Wiktionary, godhead is first attested in the (...) is a heretical mystery religion offshoot of Judaism, but that's a rather abrupt summation to jump straight to the Jews for the origin of the word, no?

    But then, most of your thought processes seem to do butt-violence to either the truth or logic or both. :)


    I was referring to "Godhead (Judaism), the unknowable aspect of God which lies beyond His actions or emanations" which is in the wikipedia (as reputable a source as yours) for Godhead, listed as the first possible meaning for Godhead as "conception of god".
    Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby mrpsbrk » 05 Jun 2010 09:19

    But what really puzzles me is: since the Honored Matres descend from the Fish Speakers, and Siaynoq was such a huge thing for Fish Speakers, shouldn't it survive in some form for the Honored Matres? OK, they didn't have the "God" to touch anymore, but... Even during Leto's time only the most lucky (or accomplished) Speakers did manage to get a ticket... A version of the ritual with an idol would be so easy to fabricate...
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Jun 2010 09:23

    mrpsbrk wrote:But what really puzzles me is: since the Honored Matres descend from the Fish Speakers, and Siaynoq was such a huge thing for Fish Speakers, shouldn't it survive in some form for the Honored Matres? OK, they didn't have the "God" to touch anymore, but... Even during Leto's time only the most lucky (or accomplished) Speakers did manage to get a ticket... A version of the ritual with an idol would be so easy to fabricate...


    You really should read the books again...

    There had been obvious sensual arousal in Sheeana as she watched the Face Dancer
    performance. The Training Proctors would have to call in their male assistants
    earlier than usual for Sheeana. What would Sheeana do then? Would she try this
    new knowledge on the men? Inhibitions must be raised in Sheeana to prevent
    that! She must be taught the dangers to herself.
    The Sisters and acolytes present had controlled themselves well, storing what
    they learned firmly in memory. Sheeana's education must be built on that
    observation. Others mastered such internal forces.
    The Face Dancer observers had remained inscrutable, but there had been things to
    see in Waff. He said he would destroy the two demonstrators but what would he
    do first? Would he succumb to temptation? What thoughts went through his mind
    as he watched the Face Dancer male squirm in mind-blanking ecstasy?
    In a way, the demonstration reminded Odrade of the Rakian dance she had seen in
    the Great Square of Keen. In the short term, the dance had been deliberately
    unrhythmic but the progression created a long-term rhythm that repeated itself
    in some two hundred . . . steps. The dancers had stretched out their rhythm to
    a remarkable degree.
    As had the Face Dancer demonstrators.
    Siaynoq become a sexual grip on uncounted billions in the Scattering!

    ~Heretics of Dune

    (The face dancers were demonstrating the sexual bonding techniques used by the honored matres.)
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Kensai » 26 Jun 2010 12:12

    I always thought Siaynoq was a kind of reverse Two Minutes Hate from 1984 (the novel) to increase the Fish Speakers loyaltie and fanaticism.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby MrFlibble » 27 Jun 2010 11:29

    Kensai wrote:I always thought Siaynoq was a kind of reverse Two Minutes Hate from 1984 (the novel) to increase the Fish Speakers loyaltie and fanaticism.

    Hah, an interesting comparison :D Nice, I didn't think of it that way, but you're right :)
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby merkin muffley » 27 Jun 2010 14:34

    MrFlibble wrote:
    Kensai wrote:I always thought Siaynoq was a kind of reverse Two Minutes Hate from 1984 (the novel) to increase the Fish Speakers loyaltie and fanaticism.

    Hah, an interesting comparison :D Nice, I didn't think of it that way, but you're right :)


    I like that analogy a lot.
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