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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby desert demon » 04 Aug 2009 12:55

    :|
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Aug 2009 19:30

    :cylon101:

    The BG don't thinkg love is a bad thing, they see love as a safety net for the survival of Humanity. They are masters of controlling their bodies and minds, and use love as a means to achieve their goals. Love, being that saftey net for humanity, is neccessarily a most powerful force which they avoid in themselves fearing loss of control. Giving up control to an emotion is abhorent to a RM, not the emotions they themselves feel. The emotions they feel are valuable sensory input, observational minutea.

    Look at Siaynoq and how Leto bound his Fish Speakers too him with love. This is the force Duncan felt and it scared the shit out of him. To manipulate one person at a time with love is subtle, using it on the masses resulted in the Honered Matres.

    :character-willie:
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Aug 2009 19:34

    .........................................The management of procreation and all of
    its attendant necessities, that was the Bene Gesserit ultimate specialty. Use
    love but avoid it, Schwangyu would be thinking now. The Sisterhood's analysts
    knew the roots of love. They had examined this quite early in their development
    but had never dared breed it out of those they influenced. Tolerate love but
    guard against it, that was the rule. Know that it lay deep within the human
    genetic makeup, a safety net to insure continuation of the species. You used it
    where necessary, imprinting selected individuals (sometimes upon each other) for
    the Sisterhood's purposes, knowing then that such individuals would be linked by
    powerful bonding lines not readily available to the common awareness.

    ...

    Faint amusement crept into Lucilla's awareness. Not orgasm. No scientific
    labels! It was purest Bene Gesserit cant: moment of mystery, the Imprinter's
    ultimate specialty. Immersion in the long Bene Gesserit continuity required
    this concept. She had been taught to believe deeply in a duality: the
    scientific knowledge by which the Breeding Mistresses guided them but, at the
    same time, the moment of mystery that confounded all knowledge. Bene Gesserit
    history and science said the procreative drive must remain irretrievably buried
    in the psyche. It could not be removed without destroying the species.
    The safety net.


    RM Lucilla, HoD
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby desert demon » 05 Aug 2009 05:17

    :|
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Mandy » 05 Aug 2009 11:58

    The BG were very cynical about love. They knew its purpose, the role it played in insuring the continuation of humanity, but after Jessica they feared it. They saw it as an attachment which could lead to betrayal of the Sisterhood. I'm not talking about them thinking love outside the Sisterhood as a bad thing, but they did see it as a bad thing for BGs themselves.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Aug 2009 12:09

    desert demon wrote:
    They are masters of controlling their bodies and minds, and use love as a means to achieve their goals. Love, being that saftey net for humanity, is neccessarily a most powerful force which they avoid in themselves fearing loss of control.

    with all due respect...
    this is not love

    not the love in the sense of what we are trying to discuss here in accordance with siaynoq
    love of life

    the BG did not achieve what Leto achived


    I didn't say they did. However, they channel(ed) the same emotional forces. They both "loved" humanity, what do you think the BG goal was? Leto's definition was broader, so too had to be his goals.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Mandy » 05 Aug 2009 12:36

    Their goal was to help humanity mature, but I don't know what they meant by that.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Aug 2009 12:54

    Mandy wrote:Their goal was to help humanity mature, but I don't know what they meant by that.


    I'm not sure they did, either.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby desert demon » 07 Aug 2009 16:05

    8-)
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Mandy » 07 Aug 2009 17:50

    The bit about their goal being the maturation of humanity is mentioned a few times in Chapterhouse, and I think it's mentioned in Heretics too, but I can't remember. Freak could probably find the exact quotes :P

    I'm not sure what you want me to respond to regarding the charming men. They had well trained men to use as sex toys, lol.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 08 Aug 2009 21:57

    "I will tell you a thing," the Rabbi said. "This 'crucial intersection of
    living awareness,' as they call it, that is nothing unless you know how your own
    decisions go out from you like threads into the lives of others."
    "To see our own actions in the reactions of others, yes, that is how the Sisters
    view it."
    "That is wisdom. What is it the lady says they seek?"
    "Influence on the maturing of humankind."

    ...

    We would not block the Tyrant's Golden Path.
    Survival of humankind took precedence over survival of the Sisterhood. Else our
    grail of human maturity is meaningless.

    ...

    Our household god is this thing we carry forward generation after generation:
    our message for humankind if it matures. The closest thing we have to a
    household goddess is a failed Reverend Mother -- Chenoeh there in her niche.
    -Darwi Odrade

    ...

    How innocent I was! Asking you what you really do.
    You know as well as I do. We wait for humankind to mature. The Tyrant only
    provided them time to grow but now they need care.

    ~Chapterhouse: Dune
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 08 Aug 2009 22:53

    We would not block the Tyrant's Golden Path.
    Survival of humankind took precedence over survival of the Sisterhood. Else our
    grail of human maturity is meaningless.


    Guess KJA and BH didn't read that bit.

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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 08 Aug 2009 23:13

    Hunchback Jack wrote:
    We would not block the Tyrant's Golden Path.
    Survival of humankind took precedence over survival of the Sisterhood. Else our
    grail of human maturity is meaningless.


    Guess KJA and BH didn't read that bit.

    HBJ


    I doubt they read any of it.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Mandy » 09 Aug 2009 12:03

    Thanks for the quotes, Freak :)

    I wish FH had explained what he meant by the maturation of humanity. Growing up leads to growing old, which leads to dying. Maybe the BG hope that if humanity matures they won't need to look after it any more.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 09 Aug 2009 13:21

    Mandy wrote:Thanks for the quotes, Freak :)

    I wish FH had explained what he meant by the maturation of humanity. Growing up leads to growing old, which leads to dying. Maybe the BG hope that if humanity matures they won't need to look after it any more.


    As the Rabbi said, "Is it not the ripe fruit that gets plucked?"
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Frybread » 10 Aug 2009 12:07

    Mandy wrote:Thanks for the quotes, Freak :)

    I wish FH had explained what he meant by the maturation of humanity. Growing up leads to growing old, which leads to dying. Maybe the BG hope that if humanity matures they won't need to look after it any more.


    I think part of maturity means being able to see the big picture (to be able to plan long-term) and to approach life with a more stable, realistic viewpoint, with decisions that have benefits that are broader and more long-lasting than immediate gratification.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby loremaster » 11 Aug 2009 03:49

    you're right, though it was a bit broader than "long-term" even.

    Remember, any defined "long term" will fail eventually. (Paraphrased from GEoD).

    What Leto wanted was a humanity which always chose the difficult, open path which let into new possibilities. To use that questing, instinctive curiosity and drive which evolved us to where we were.... and then seemed to dwindle causing us to stagnate.
    The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Lionel Horsepackage » 11 May 2010 14:21

    What struck me most about the ritual is that the Fish Speakers -- literally -- believed themselves to be Leto's bride, in that moment. It was, in that sense, a definite sexual orgy. It was Leto channeling the energies of procreation to his own ends; Duncan was very much intimidated when he first observed this. In the following book (Heretics), Odrade witnesses a repeat of Siaynoq in the streets of Rakis, with the same sexual energies being released. She didn't fully understand this, but the reader was shown that Leto's ritual had become quite perverted, though its energies were undiminished. This was a very clear clue that the Honored Matres were descendants of the Fish Speakers, and that their perversion of sex was an extension of Siaynoq.

    In Heretics, Odrade watches the performance, and has a revelation about Taraza's secret plan, and what the dance means. The dance seems to point to the Rakis locals trying to survive in the desert in the presence of a worm. Though what the crowd's reaction to the dancers means is still beyond me. A weird combination of learning the worm's language and the "testing" that Leto II did with the Atreides line?

    If the dance is an attempt at evolving communication with the sandworms (by lethal trial-and-error), is this an obscure part of the "golden path" that Sheeana will pursue in the "Missionaria Plan"? Maybe more than her simply controlling the sandworms, but rather actually talking to Leto II's "pearls of awareness"? My thinking is that the "Missionaria Plan" has to be more than just having sandworms do dog-tricks for an adoring universe.

    Probably so, since Sheeana knows the language of the dance better than anyone. And since the Honored Matres "evolved" from Fish Speakers (who themselves knew the the early version of Siaynoq) they were likely to be greatly influenced by Sheeana's ability, had Frank Herbert lived to complete his final novel.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 11 May 2010 14:30

    I don't think the goings on in HoD had anything to do with the GP, which Leto made sure was established before his division.

    As for Sheeana and the MP, I think they had Goddess Empress plans.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Lionel Horsepackage » 11 May 2010 14:45

    The way I understood it, Taraza's plan was to incite the Honored Matres to destroy Rakis, thereby killing off all but the one worm they transported to Chapterhouse. In doing this, they destroyed the majority of the prescient hold Leto had, which was still locking humanity into just one path, the Golden Path. Siaynoq, in the form of the dance, was direct communication with the "pearls of awareness" in those worms. I think that's probably as good an explanation as any as to why Leto chose Siaynoq to be the one and only ritual in his religion during his lifetime...but I'm still not sure exactly how this communication would be manifested, or what exactly Herbert had in mind for the final book.

    It was said at the end of Chapterhouse: Dune, that anyone could "learn the language" (of the worm)...this leads to many interesting speculations, concerning connections to Leto's Golden Path. Also, Taraza planed to drive the Honored Matres to extremis, thereby hastening the infiltration of the Bene Gesserit into the Honored Matre hierarchy, or if it went wrong, the complete destruction of the BGs. She knew it was an all-or-nothing gambit. In goading them, the BGs hoped to enrage the HMs to the point of literal self-destruction. At least, that's my take on it, in a very, very simplified fashion.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 11 May 2010 14:47

    The golden path was the opposite of a path, it was the scattering itself. Once humanity had been scattered beyond its own ability to find eachother the golden path was secure, and completely unbreakable. No one single threat could ever truly threaten humanity after the scattering.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 11 May 2010 15:58

    Lionel Horsepackage wrote:The way I understood it, Taraza's plan was to incite the Honored Matres to destroy Rakis, thereby killing off all but the one worm they transported to Chapterhouse. In doing this, they destroyed the majority of the prescient hold Leto had, which was still locking humanity into just one path, the Golden Path.


    Blasphemy! The Golden Path was the survival of humanity, even in the form of Honored Matres if that was how it turned out.

    The Rakian worms only had a prescient hold on the core of the old empire. A drop in the bucket compared to The Scattering.

    Siaynoq, in the form of the dance, was direct communication with the "pearls of awareness" in those worms. I think that's probably as good an explanation as any as to why Leto chose Siaynoq to be the one and only ritual in his religion during his lifetime...but I'm still not sure exactly how this communication would be manifested, or what exactly Herbert had in mind for the final book.

    It was said at the end of Chapterhouse: Dune, that anyone could "learn the language" (of the worm)...this leads to many interesting speculations, concerning connections to Leto's Golden Path. Also, Taraza planed to drive the Honored Matres to extremis, thereby hastening the infiltration of the Bene Gesserit into the Honored Matre hierarchy, or if it went wrong, the complete destruction of the BGs. She knew it was an all-or-nothing gambit. In goading them, the BGs hoped to enrage the HMs to the point of literal self-destruction. At least, that's my take on it, in a very, very simplified fashion.


    Even if the BG were destroyed, the GP still endured. As long as ALL humans aren't destroyed.

    I give you Leto's words carved into the remains of Tabr:

    "I BEQUEATH TO YOU MY FEAR AND LONELINESS. TO YOU I GIVE THE CERTAINTY THAT THE
    BODY AND SOUL OF THE BENE GESSERIT WILL MEET THE SAME FATE AS ALL OTHER BODIES
    AND ALL OTHER SOULS."

    "WHAT IS SURVIVAL IF YOU DO NOT SURVIVE WHOLE? ASK THE BENE TLEILAX THAT! WHAT
    IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE? MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY
    CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!"

    "WHY DID YOUR SISTERHOOD NOT BUILD THE GOLDEN PATH? YOU KNEW THE NECESSITY.
    YOUR FAILURE CONDEMNED ME, THE GOD EMPEROR, TO MILLENNIA OF PERSONAL DESPAIR."
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Lionel Horsepackage » 11 May 2010 16:43

    I tend to believe that the Bene Gesserit and Taraza defintely had a few alternative plans they could use, depending upon the strategic situation on the ground as
    it unfolded. One of the oldest plans involved Duncan. They asked the Tleilaxu to give Duncan improved reflexes, and to implant him with the ability to resist sexual conditioning by the Honored Matres. Duncan also possessed the ability to control others through sexual conditioning. Schwangyu detested this plan, because she feared it would produce another Kwisatz Haderach.

    Early on in the novel Heretics of Dune, Taraza had a plan to provoke the Honored Matres to overreact to the military resistance introduced by Miles Teg, so that the HM would come to be hated by everyone in the Old Empire, while the appearance of Sheeana fulfilled a prophecy that Leto made centuries ago. The BG and Taraza sought to use her as a religious symbol so that they might gain control over the HM and other important political groups. The BG also believed it might be beneficial to pair Sheeana with Duncan, because Duncan could function as a religious and political symbol.

    When Odrade read Leto's words in the cave at Sietch Tabr, she probably began to formulate a plan to absorb the Honored Matres into the Bene Gesserit, though, as I read it, the destruction of Rakis ended up becoming another part of Taraza's plan that intruded on Odrade's own, something that Miles Teg provoked after he manifested his unanticipated hyper-abilities (as well as the threat of Duncan being on the planet). It really was fortunate that Sheeana harnessed the ability to control the worms at this time.

    I think Odrade probably formulated that extended plan immediately upon Taraza's death when she absorbed her memories, and saw what she had intended. There was a line from Odrade saying something to the effect that Taraza's plan was limited, and didn't go "far enough." Teg, I believe, understood enough of both Taraza's plan, and Odrade's, to know to meet Odrade and Sheeana in the desert, save a worm, and then to incite the Honored Matres' wrath. He didn't have to go that route, per se, but with his enhanced abilities, he knew it was important to do so.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 11 May 2010 17:01

    Lionel Horsepackage wrote:The BG also believed it might be beneficial to pair Sheeana with Duncan, because Duncan could function as a religious and political symbol.


    I believe they did this to control Sheeana through her bonding with Duncan.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby inhuien » 13 May 2010 06:15

    Lionel Horsepackage wrote:They [the BG] asked the Tleilaxu to give Duncan improved reflexes, and to implant him with the ability to resist sexual conditioning by the Honored Matres.

    I always thought his resistance to ,and ability to condition, was an addition to his genome by the BT without telling the BG. Could you throw a wee quote my way to supports your assertion. :) Remember the BT were killing the Duncan gholas in order to control his release into the wider Universe.

    Oh yeah, the GPs fruition is the scattering, 2c.
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