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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 13 May 2010 10:50

    inhuien wrote:
    Lionel Horsepackage wrote:They [the BG] asked the Tleilaxu to give Duncan improved reflexes, and to implant him with the ability to resist sexual conditioning by the Honored Matres.

    I always thought his resistance to ,and ability to condition, was an addition to his genome by the BT without telling the BG. Could you throw a wee quote my way to supports your assertion. :) Remember the BT were killing the Duncan gholas in order to control his release into the wider Universe.

    Oh yeah, the GPs fruition is the scattering, 2c.


    I believe you're correct about Duncan's implanted bonding. It was a surprise to the BG.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby inhuien » 13 May 2010 11:07

    Freakzilla wrote:I believe you're correct about Duncan's implanted bonding. It was a surprise to the BG.
    Even a stopped clock tell the right time twice a day. :)

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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby RedHeadKevin » 23 May 2010 10:29

    How do you pronounce "Siaynoq?" I've always read it as "SIGH- ay - nock" ANy other thoughts?
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 23 May 2010 10:37

    RedHeadKevin wrote:How do you pronounce "Siaynoq?" I've always read it as "SIGH- ay - nock" ANy other thoughts?


    That's how I pronounce it.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby SandChigger » 23 May 2010 16:40

    See-ay-noq (with Q = K way back in your throat), or

    See-eye-noq, or

    variations with see = sigh?

    Given than FH pronounced Chani as (Charlie)CHAN-ee, really, all bets are off. ;)
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby mrpsbrk » 28 May 2010 09:49

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:The golden path was the opposite of a path, it was the scattering itself. Once humanity had been scattered beyond its own ability to find eachother the golden path was secure, and completely unbreakable. No one single threat could ever truly threaten humanity after the scattering.


    I don't know, i find this explanation a bit shallow. At the very beginning of Dune the universe is already big enough that some houses do go to forgotten faraway planets to never be found again. «Big is indestructible» just seems bellow Leto II (and, for that matter, FH). In fact i think He, again and again, cautions against such mechanistic thinking, against this callous "security in numbers", against simplistic solutions.

    Infinity is bigger than any big, wasn't that the old tune?
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby SandChigger » 28 May 2010 10:03

    mrpsbrk wrote:At the very beginning of Dune the universe is already big enough that some houses do go to forgotten faraway planets to never be found again.

    I assume you're referring to Tupile here, but obviously you once again have a rather fucked idea of what's actually written in the books.

    «Big is indestructible» just seems bellow Leto II (and, for that matter, FH). In fact i think He, again and again, cautions against such mechanistic thinking, against this callous "security in numbers", against simplistic solutions.

    Well, again, maybe you should READ THE FUCKING BOOKS.

    Infinity is bigger than any big, wasn't that the old tune?

    Never heard that one. But then who knows what shit is playing inside your head.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby merkin muffley » 28 May 2010 10:35

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:The golden path was the opposite of a path, it was the scattering itself. Once humanity had been scattered beyond its own ability to find eachother the golden path was secure, and completely unbreakable. No one single threat could ever truly threaten humanity after the scattering.


    That makes a lot of sense to me.

    mrpsbrk wrote:«Big is indestructible» just seems bellow Leto II (and, for that matter, FH). In fact i think He, again and again, cautions against such mechanistic thinking, against this callous "security in numbers", against simplistic solutions.

    Infinity is bigger than any big, wasn't that the old tune?


    That doesn't.

    Frank Herbert wrote:I kept getting these telephone calls from people asking me if I were starting a cult. The answer: "God no!"



    EDIT: Why are you capitalizing "He"? Nayla?
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby mrpsbrk » 28 May 2010 12:05

    merkin muffley wrote:
    Frank Herbert wrote:I kept getting these telephone calls from people asking me if I were starting a cult. The answer: "God no!"


    EDIT: Why are you capitalizing "He"? Nayla?


    Infidel! Leto II is God! Capitalize we must!
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby merkin muffley » 28 May 2010 12:15

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    merkin muffley wrote:
    Frank Herbert wrote:I kept getting these telephone calls from people asking me if I were starting a cult. The answer: "God no!"


    EDIT: Why are you capitalizing "He"? Nayla?


    Infidel! Leto II is God! Capitalize we must!



    I'm relieved that you're kidding. It's hard to decipher. Good prose is like a window pane.


    UPDATE: Gary Coleman just died.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 28 May 2010 14:22

    It doesn't matter how far flung the original empire was, so long as it relied on melange, and so long as melange could only be found on Dune, stagnation and decay were inevitable.

    (Okay, I'm over-simplifying - there's the aspect of being vulnerable to prescient rulers, etc - but I think that's essentially the point).

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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Nekhrun » 28 May 2010 14:33

    merkin muffley wrote:UPDATE: Gary Coleman just died.

    Post of the year nomination for Best Off-Topic Post.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby merkin muffley » 28 May 2010 14:36

    Nekhrun wrote:
    merkin muffley wrote:UPDATE: Gary Coleman just died.

    Post of the year nomination for Best Off-Topic Post.

    Thank you
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 28 May 2010 15:04

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:The golden path was the opposite of a path, it was the scattering itself. Once humanity had been scattered beyond its own ability to find eachother the golden path was secure, and completely unbreakable. No one single threat could ever truly threaten humanity after the scattering.


    I don't know, i find this explanation a bit shallow. At the very beginning of Dune the universe is already big enough that some houses do go to forgotten faraway planets to never be found again. «Big is indestructible» just seems bellow Leto II (and, for that matter, FH). In fact i think He, again and again, cautions against such mechanistic thinking, against this callous "security in numbers", against simplistic solutions.

    Infinity is bigger than any big, wasn't that the old tune?


    You've miss-read something. In the first books there may be some planets that SOME people do not know the location of - but the guild would know the location of ALL the planets, otherwise they would be unreachable.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby SandChigger » 28 May 2010 20:30

    Oh, Thang, don't spoon feed him! :twisted:

    :lol:
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby mrpsbrk » 29 May 2010 00:50

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:I don't know, i find this explanation a bit shallow. At the very beginning of Dune the universe is already big enough that some houses do go to forgotten faraway planets to never be found again. «Big is indestructible» just seems bellow Leto II (and, for that matter, FH). In fact i think He, again and again, cautions against such mechanistic thinking, against this callous "security in numbers", against simplistic solutions.


    You've miss-read something. In the first books there may be some planets that SOME people do not know the location of - but the guild would know the location of ALL the planets, otherwise they would be unreachable.


    No, man, i know what i have read. I know that in Dune there is the Guild Monopoly, but i also know that the problem there is not the size of the human universe, but instead the monopoly itself which impedes free exploration. Muad'Dib was strong enough to break the Guild Monopoly, but then there was the CHOAM, and then the Houses, and so on: Wheels within wheels within wheels, everyone trying to get their own monopoly, their own way to extort something from those around them.

    If this was a matter of SIZE, Frank could just tell us that the size was enough. In fact, all references to measures and sizes and actual concrete data like that seems a bit fudged, a bit like FH didn't really care too much about them, but rather about HOW THOSE WERE USED.

    Like Siona saying that "Once you acquire a marketplace soul, the suk is the totality of existence." She was not about getting bigger than Leto II. She was not about strength in numbers. I just can't see that in her.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby merkin muffley » 29 May 2010 01:37

    Please correct me if i'm wrong, but this is what i get from AToE's post:

    The purpose of the Golden Path was to prevent the extinction of the human race. Leto II imposed the Golden Path on humanity, knowing that this would lead to the Scattering. And because of the independence imposed by the Scattering, humans could no longer go extinct all at once. Therefore, the Scattering fulfilled the purpose of the Golden Path.

    So, what, in the name of Frank, are you talking about?
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 29 May 2010 02:09

    mrpsbrk wrote:No, man, i know what i have read. I know that in Dune there is the Guild Monopoly, but i also know that the problem there is not the size of the human universe, but instead the monopoly itself which impedes free exploration. Muad'Dib was strong enough to break the Guild Monopoly, but then there was the CHOAM, and then the Houses, and so on: Wheels within wheels within wheels, everyone trying to get their own monopoly, their own way to extort something from those around them.


    I'm not sure what you mean when you say that Muad'Dib broke the Guild monopoly on space travel. Space travel requires Navigators, and only the Guild had Navigators. But more importantly, Navigators require melange, and that restricted space travel to the old Empire, because only Dune had melange. That didn't change until Ix developed navigation machines that made space travel possible without Navigators or melange.

    If this was a matter of SIZE, Frank could just tell us that the size was enough. In fact, all references to measures and sizes and actual concrete data like that seems a bit fudged, a bit like FH didn't really care too much about them, but rather about HOW THOSE WERE USED.


    Well, it's not just about size, but about diversity. With size comes safety, in that no single threat can destroy humanity, and no single leader - prescient or otherwise - can dominate. With diversity comes the assurance that humanity won't rot from within from stagnation, and from its own destructive behaviour.

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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby SandChigger » 29 May 2010 02:55

    merkin muffley wrote:The purpose of the Golden Path was to prevent the extinction of the human race.

    Right.

    Leto II imposed the Golden Path on humanity, knowing that this would lead to the Scattering.

    Well, as part of his Secher Nbiw (GOLDEN PLAN or IDEA) he imposed a lack of mobility and fixed social order on humanity for over 3,000 years and the resulting pressures are what led to The Scattering after his death. The Scattering plus the Siona Gene are what ensured the future survival of humanity. The Golden Path really isn't a "path" or "philosophy" for humanity to follow at all.

    And because of the independence imposed by the Scattering, humans could no longer go extinct all at once. Therefore, the Scattering fulfilled the purpose of the Golden Path.

    Physical separation and isolation (across multiple galaxies and possibly different universes) ensured that all of humanity could not be eliminated by any one natural catastrophe or other (non-human: alien or machine?) agent or enemy. The Siona Gene ensured that no individual prescient or even group of them could ever again establish control over the entire species. (Even though later mutations, like Teg, weakened the protection of the Siona Gene, by that time the physical dispersion had done its job. No human prescient, even a new God Emperor (or Goddess Empress), would ever live long enough to conquer all the Scattered pockets of humans.)

    So, what, in the name of Frank, are you talking about?

    A good, but pointless, question. ;)
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 29 May 2010 03:23

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:I don't know, i find this explanation a bit shallow. At the very beginning of Dune the universe is already big enough that some houses do go to forgotten faraway planets to never be found again. «Big is indestructible» just seems bellow Leto II (and, for that matter, FH). In fact i think He, again and again, cautions against such mechanistic thinking, against this callous "security in numbers", against simplistic solutions.


    You've miss-read something. In the first books there may be some planets that SOME people do not know the location of - but the guild would know the location of ALL the planets, otherwise they would be unreachable.


    No, man, i know what i have read. I know that in Dune there is the Guild Monopoly, but i also know that the problem there is not the size of the human universe, but instead the monopoly itself which impedes free exploration. Muad'Dib was strong enough to break the Guild Monopoly, but then there was the CHOAM, and then the Houses, and so on: Wheels within wheels within wheels, everyone trying to get their own monopoly, their own way to extort something from those around them.

    If this was a matter of SIZE, Frank could just tell us that the size was enough. In fact, all references to measures and sizes and actual concrete data like that seems a bit fudged, a bit like FH didn't really care too much about them, but rather about HOW THOSE WERE USED.

    Like Siona saying that "Once you acquire a marketplace soul, the suk is the totality of existence." She was not about getting bigger than Leto II. She was not about strength in numbers. I just can't see that in her.


    Ok, I appreciate your willingness to debate but I don't understand your point. Let's distil this down to key elements.

    1. Do you agree that the GP is a plan to ensure the continuance of humanity for as long as possible, removing the possibility of any single threat wiping them out?

    2 Do you agree that the scattering ensures this? Yes, the human universe was big at Paul's time, but at least the guild did know where everyone was. After the scattering, even the guild didn't have the slightest clue. Regardless of whether SIZE was the issue before the scattering, post-scattering SIZE became a gaurantee that humanity couldn't be wiped out by any one threat?

    3. If you agree that the GP was the continuance of humanity for as long as possible, and that the scattering acheived this through phsyically scattering humanity, then what could possibly be the point of any "adjustments" in Chapterhouse, or indeed any point after the scattering?
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby mrpsbrk » 29 May 2010 12:42

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:Let's distil this down to key elements.

    1. Do you agree that the GP is a plan to ensure the continuance of humanity for as long as possible, removing the possibility of any single threat wiping them out?


    Well, let's.

    1. I agree that Leto said so. Then again, Leto said a bunch of things about "what the GP is". And the gist of it all, to me, is that at any single time, instead of laying down precise plans, or achieving some number (of size or power or ...) He was trying to impress in His listener some way of thinking, some attitude that could also be described with those words, but did not end in them.

    So, yes, i think that GP = survival of humanity. Not for as long as possible, but forever. Not to a given date, but into an open time frame. Into infinity.

    But i think the "removing the possibility that any single threat wiping them out" is... one detail and not the big picture. I think it is important to be on guard against the "single threat", but it is also important to be impervious against "many small threats". And i think the final lesson is "survive" and stop relying in formulas. And "scatter=survival" is a formula.

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:2 Do you agree that the scattering ensures this? Yes, the human universe was big at Paul's time, but at least the guild did know where everyone was. After the scattering, even the guild didn't have the slightest clue. Regardless of whether SIZE was the issue before the scattering, post-scattering SIZE became a gaurantee that humanity couldn't be wiped out by any one threat?


    2. No, i don't. I think the Scattering is just one detail amongst many. We do know that Paul had some prescient tricks that the Navigators were unaware of, so the whole "prescience can be used to track them all" might not even be true about pre-Muad'Dib navigators alone. The point being that, no matter how big a gun, someone can always go bigger. As in nuclear weaponry: As of today, nukes are so big that they are actually, from a strategic point of view, less important than computer-guided missiles.

    Scale differences (when you are much bigger than your opponent) are important, but most of the times, a breakthrough in complexity can undo any size difference. Like the floppy disk undid the mainframe.

    So for example, Leto already had the no-chambers for a long time before Siona came around -- the invisibility was there, what was lacking was the willingness to use it to walk with her own legs. Her strange mix of rebellion without teen angst. Her capability to do the unexpected -- however you want to call it.

    I did just search for "scatter" in GEoD, but didn't find the dialogue i was looking for. One where Leto talks, i guess to Moneo, that when he is gone people will have the drive to flee, to seek new grounds. I recall that this dialogue sounded like an aimless musing, not like a objective description of a plan. Couldn't find it though.

    As i said in the other thread, Teg could see the no-ships. If he could do it, there is no point in believing that the awakened face dancers or the trainers or some evil cyborg somewhere could not come up with another super-power that undid it all. Piling super-power over super-power is kinda cool, i'll grant that, but i believe that FH's message was very clearly to not focus on them, instead focusing on self-reliance.

    The whole comparison of Bene Gesserit with Honored Matres that runs throughout Ch:D seems to actually be a very overt preaching of the uselessness of just always going for bigger, faster, harder. The Matres are bigger than the BG, stronger, better at fighting, more sexy, but still Odrade outsmarts them blind. The unbelievably big -- Honored Matres -- is shown to be useless against the one who can swim in the troubled waters -- the BG.

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:3. If you agree that the GP was the continuance of humanity for as long as possible, and that the scattering acheived this through phsyically scattering humanity, then what could possibly be the point of any "adjustments" in Chapterhouse, or indeed any point after the scattering?


    3. Well, i disagree with 2.

    But, again, i came around to seeing the latter 2 books as continuation of the GP just very recently.

    On the other hand, after i did take this stance, it all seemed to fit better. Exactly because the GP was about this constant adjustment, it was about this capability to be always improvising, always shedding the old trusted formulas in favour of the new, the amazing, and the unexpected.

    Because, you see, it is easy to teach someone to stop doing an old trick -- just punch them whenever they do it. But most likely they will fall back to whatever trick they come up that stops you from punching them. And then you will have to punch them again. But if you disappear, as everything must sooner or later, then they become addicted to their tricks again. Teaching someone to be creative and aware is much harder.

    How can you use words to teach someone to stop relying on words?

    How can you use culture to go beyond the limits of culture?

    This is basically impossible, except, well, Frank did it. But it is very subtle. And, even though i do believe that, from my first read as a teenager, this masterful piece of work has helped me into becoming more self-reliant, more creative, more open to the universe (please, i do still have a lot to go and i am not boasting or anything), i believe that rereading it recently, and thinking about this overtly, and grasping consciously those nuances of the Chronicles, enriches my experience a thousandfold.

    I leave you with a quite random quote.

    Frank Herbert wrote:What am I eliminating? The bourgeois infatuation with peaceful conservation of the past. This is a binding force, a thing which holds humankind into one vulnerable unit in spite of illusionary separations across parsecs of space. If I can find the scattered bits, others can find them. When you are together, you can share a common catastrophe. You can be exterminated together. Thus, I demonstrate the terrible danger of a gliding, passionless mediocrity, a movement without ambitions or aims. I show you that entire civilizations can do this thing. I give you eons of life which slips gently toward death without fuss or stirring, without even asking 'Why?' I show you the false happiness and the shadow-catastrophe called Leto, the God Emperor. Now, will you learn the real happiness?

    -The Stolen Journals


    You can definitely stress the "If I can find the scattered bits, others can find them." part if you want. But i can't help but feel that what is really important here is "What am I eliminating? The bourgeois infatuation with peaceful conservation of the past." "Now, will you learn the real happiness?"
    Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 29 May 2010 12:51

    Once The Scattering was accomplished, it didn't matter if someone defeats the no-field or Siona Gene. The human population is so vast that no one could ever find and threaten them all. That alone is the defense against threats big and small. As long as there are two people doing it somewhere the GP is a success.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby SandChigger » 29 May 2010 19:05

    Waste of time.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby Freakzilla » 29 May 2010 19:16

    SandChigger wrote:Waste of time.


    Sometimes even I get tired of repeating myself.

    The BG surely wanted to understand what Leto had set in motion and may even have wanted to "tweak" the GP to suit their purposes, but anything they did would only be local in relation to the rest of the universe.
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    Re: Siaynoq

    Postby SandChigger » 29 May 2010 20:00

    And in trying to understand it they probably overanalyzed it as well. ;)
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