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    My skin is not my own...

    Postby Borrace » 13 May 2010 14:55

    I was thinking about something...kind of a "what if" scenario...and this thought came from reading another thread in this paticular forum about Leto's "four deaths"...

    WHAT IF...

    After Leto II dies and goes back into the sand...and 1000 years pass...and sandworms retake the face of arrakis...and sandtrout once again flop in the sand...

    WHAT IF another Atreides (or other person) who is capable of supersaturating their body with spice put the Leto II "pearl of awareness" skin on their own body and underwent the transformation??? Would Leto II reappear?

    just thoughts.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 13 May 2010 15:32

    That is actually a good question, and if so, would it be a full persona, or just partial? Would it take possesion, or reside in an other-memory-like capacity?
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby Omphalos » 13 May 2010 15:33

    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him. So I think not.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby Apjak » 13 May 2010 15:37

    I guess it might be possible that the Leto II DNA could transmit OM, but any atredies KH that would be capable of getting it would already have every other persona other than Leto II's.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 13 May 2010 15:51

    Omphalos wrote:Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him. So I think not.


    That I understand, but I was thinking maybe a little more along the lines of Apjak's post here:

    Apjak wrote:I guess it might be possible that the Leto II DNA could transmit OM, but any atredies KH that would be capable of getting it would already have every other persona other than Leto II's.


    Not so much that the worms "pearl" was a significant recording of Leto's mind or anything like that - but we are dealing with a universe where DNA transmits memories - so would merging with the sandtrout open up the possibility of "injecting" Leto II into the OM of the person taking on the skin?

    EDIT: So, while the "pearl" might not be a compressed copy of Leto, if any of his DNA is in there then that does likely contain a compressed copy.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby Ampoliros » 13 May 2010 17:10

    I suggest we bury or delete this thread before KJA sees it and combines it with the Iron Man series to make Leto III, son of ultimate KH Duncan Idaho, who takes on the skin of Monarch and becomes IronWormUltraSpiceMan, complete with the voice of Leto II as the mind controlling the skin.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby SadisticCynic » 13 May 2010 17:18

    Ampoliros wrote:I suggest we bury or delete this thread before KJA sees it and combines it with the Iron Man series to make Leto III, son of ultimate KH Duncan Idaho, who takes on the skin of Monarch and becomes IronWormUltraSpiceMan, complete with the voice of Leto II as the mind controlling the skin.


    No, don't distract interesting thread with KJA. That means he wins...


    That's an interesting thought Borrace. Although (as Omphalos mentioned) the pearls are not compressed copies of the whole,* there is a possibility that, when combined together and into the nervous system of another conscious (in the way humans are conscious of course) being, some influence could be present. Not the whole of Leto's persona though.


    Maybe. :think:


    On another note, is it a necessity to be a kwisatz haderach to take on the sandtrout skin? If not then someone performing such an act wouldn't necessarily have Leto's persona present. If so, then the point is probably moot.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby SandChigger » 13 May 2010 19:20

    SadisticCynic wrote:That's an interesting thought Borrace. Although (as Omphalos mentioned) the pearls are not compressed copies of the whole,* there is a possibility that, when combined together and into the nervous system of another conscious (in the way humans are conscious of course) being, some influence could be present. Not the whole of Leto's persona though.

    But why not? If Leto's DNA is involved, then the whole persona would be there. (Think of the Duncan ghola.)

    Venturing into whacky Duniverse genetics/science, I see two possibilities (let me know if you see more!):

    (1) Leto was a true hybrid of human and sandworm, meaning mixing of DNA; or

    (2) Leto was a symbiote with no mixing of human and sandtrout DNA.

    In the first case, the next generation sandtrout and sandworms might be assumed to have very different physiological & somatic characteristics as well as the behavioral changes that Leto predicted, but we don't really read of any sandworms sprouting talking heads or flipper feet, do we?

    In the second, maybe the sandtrout absorbed bits of Leto (his human DNA? Edit #2: or parts of his brain? Remember, he mentions that his brain/CNS is no longer located primarily in his human head but has been spread throughout the worm body) and encapsulated them within. Maybe those little "globs of God" divide and get passed on when sandtrout propagate, kinda like human mitochondria (DNA separate from that in the nucleus, originally possibly independent organisms that entered into symbiosis with cells).

    Personally, I like the second alternative. ;)

    On another note, is it a necessity to be a kwisatz haderach to take on the sandtrout skin? If not then someone performing such an act wouldn't necessarily have Leto's persona present. If so, then the point is probably moot.

    But no one's going to have Leto's persona anyway by direct descent. ;) Spice saturation and the right Atreides genes?

    [Edited wording of (2) to make it clearer!]
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby Freakzilla » 13 May 2010 23:28

    I vote for hybrid because not only did Leto physically change such as his brain spreading into ganglia, heightened senses, etc..., but his sandworm descendants were changed as well to be more dangerous and more prolific breeders.

    But beyond that, since we're believing in memory recording in DNA might Leto not have Shared his OM with his worm body? The worm wouldn't be conscious of it because it doesn't have a human brain but if Sheeana or someone else accomplished the metamorphosis might they not have access to Leto's OM in the worm DNA?

    I would say that for anyone to avoid possession in the process they would have to be male and therefor a KH. I'm sure Leto would be the dominant male persona doing the possession.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby SandChigger » 14 May 2010 02:07

    Well, Leto himself uses the word "hybrid", for what it's worth.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby inhuien » 14 May 2010 05:23

    He's (Leto) is a hybrid/symbiont of Human and Sandtrout, it doesn't follow that it's necessarily the case that there was corruption of Leto's DNA. That said I just checked to Chapterhouse Dune and there's no mention of any of Letos DNA in the Nullentropy capsule, but then he was their Messiah so possibly as a mark of respect they left him be regardless of it's condition. :clearasmud:
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 May 2010 11:50

    inhuien wrote:He's (Leto) is a hybrid/symbiont of Human and Sandtrout, it doesn't follow that it's necessarily the case that there was corruption of Leto's DNA. That said I just checked to Chapterhouse Dune and there's no mention of any of Letos DNA in the Nullentropy capsule, but then he was their Messiah so possibly as a mark of respect they left him be regardless of it's condition. :clearasmud:


    IIRC, they didn't have Leto's DNA at all.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby Nekhrun » 14 May 2010 12:22

    Freakzilla wrote:
    inhuien wrote:He's (Leto) is a hybrid/symbiont of Human and Sandtrout, it doesn't follow that it's necessarily the case that there was corruption of Leto's DNA. That said I just checked to Chapterhouse Dune and there's no mention of any of Letos DNA in the Nullentropy capsule, but then he was their Messiah so possibly as a mark of respect they left him be regardless of it's condition. :clearasmud:


    IIRC, they didn't have Leto's DNA at all.

    That's my interpretation as well. Not that it matters.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby inhuien » 14 May 2010 12:44

    What doesn't matter, your opinion or the lack of any surviving Leto II DNA.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 May 2010 12:45

    Scytale rubbed his breast, reminding himself of what was hidden there with such
    skill that not even a scar marked the place. Each Master had carried this
    resource -- a nullentropy capsule preserving the seed cells of a multitude:
    fellow Masters of the central kehl, Face Dancers, technical specialists and
    others he knew would be attractive to the women of Shaitan . . . and to many
    weakling powindah! Paul Atreides and his beloved Chani were there. (Oh what
    that had cost in searching garments of the dead for random cells!) The original
    Duncan Idaho was there with other Atreides minions -- the Mentat Thufir Hawat,
    Gurney Halleck, the Fremen Naib Stilgar
    . . . enough potential servants and
    slaves to people a Tleilaxu universe.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby D Pope » 14 May 2010 15:25

    This is a great topic & i'd like to kick in my two cents.
    The twins were unique in that they were born with 'genetic' memory, differing from Alia who was 'awakened' during her mothers ceremony & forced to download BG other memory. All Atredies after the God Emperor came from Ghanima so if they're capible of awakening their genetic memory they'll have access to the same memory Leto II used to take safaris in.

    The question is whether LetoII personal memories can be obtained from a new sand trout skin, because that'd be the only way to get them. I've seen nothing in the text to suggest that an answer could be any more than speculation about the amount of LetoII in his pearl of awareness.

    So! My two cents;
    I think if it ever happened, LetoII wouldn't be a full blown memory threatening possesion, but a stong impulse to protect the Gloden Path. Similar prehaps to the angel & devil perched on the shoulders of charectures facing a moral delemma, more or less dormant till some threat arises.

    Other than vague threats, I think Siona was the only thing LetoIIs pearl was interested in.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 May 2010 16:31

    D Pope wrote:This is a great topic & i'd like to kick in my two cents.
    The twins were unique in that they were born with 'genetic' memory, differing from Alia who was 'awakened' during her mothers ceremony & forced to download BG other memory. All Atredies after the God Emperor came from Ghanima so if they're capible of awakening their genetic memory they'll have access to the same memory Leto II used to take safaris in.


    I don't think there's actually that difference between Alia and the twins, remember Leto is "awake" and adult enough right after birth to guide Paul telepathically. There's, as far as I can see, no reason to think that the twins wouldn't have gone through the same awakening in utero as Alia did.

    The question is whether LetoII personal memories can be obtained from a new sand trout skin, because that'd be the only way to get them. I've seen nothing in the text to suggest that an answer could be any more than speculation about the amount of LetoII in his pearl of awareness.



    That is certainly true, though as was pointed out earlier the question isn't actually how much of Leto is in his "pearls" the question is whether those pearls hold any of his DNA. If they do hold his DNA, then the DNA (in the Dune universe, not the real one obviously) would hold a full and complete copy of Leto's mind., regardless of how functional/complete the pearl is.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby Nekhrun » 14 May 2010 17:42

    inhuien wrote:What doesn't matter, your opinion or the lack of any surviving Leto II DNA.

    Both, the Hacks went and fucked it up.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 May 2010 17:44

    Nekhrun wrote:
    inhuien wrote:What doesn't matter, your opinion or the lack of any surviving Leto II DNA.

    Both, the Hacks went and fucked it up.



    No, THAT is what doesn't matter.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby Omphalos » 14 May 2010 18:58

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:That is certainly true, though as was pointed out earlier the question isn't actually how much of Leto is in his "pearls" the question is whether those pearls hold any of his DNA. If they do hold his DNA, then the DNA (in the Dune universe, not the real one obviously) would hold a full and complete copy of Leto's mind., regardless of how functional/complete the pearl is.


    No, it most certainly would not. First, none of Leto's memories would be in there. Second, a recopied Leto would be no more Leto than the sheep Dolly would be of its "mother." The potential is there, but you could not guarantee (or probably even realize) a photocopy of Leto by cloning his DNA. DNA is potential, not blueprints. Any geneticist will tell you that. We could clone Thing a million times and have a million different individuals.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby Nekhrun » 14 May 2010 19:05

    Omphalos wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:That is certainly true, though as was pointed out earlier the question isn't actually how much of Leto is in his "pearls" the question is whether those pearls hold any of his DNA. If they do hold his DNA, then the DNA (in the Dune universe, not the real one obviously) would hold a full and complete copy of Leto's mind., regardless of how functional/complete the pearl is.


    No, it most certainly would not. First, none of Leto's memories would be in there. Second, a recopied Leto would be no more Leto than the sheep Dolly would be of its "mother." The potential is there, but you could not guarantee (or probably even realize) a photocopy of Leto by cloning his DNA. DNA is potential, not blueprints. Any geneticist will tell you that. We could clone Thing a million times and have a million different individuals.


    That's why I don't get why there are laws agains cloning humans.

    Maybe you could snag the memories from Leto until he merged at age 9? But they'd have to be reawakened like a ghola right?

    I always thought it would be strange that the last OM memory that you'd have from your male ancestors would be doing your female ancestors, maybe it would be just one or two days before the doing. You'd remember it as your mother though right? Either way, sexy.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby D Pope » 14 May 2010 19:37

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    D Pope wrote:This is a great topic & i'd like to kick in my two cents.
    The twins were unique in that they were born with 'genetic' memory, differing from Alia who was 'awakened' during her mothers ceremony & forced to download BG other memory. All Atredies after the God Emperor came from Ghanima so if they're capible of awakening their genetic memory they'll have access to the same memory Leto II used to take safaris in.


    I don't think there's actually that difference between Alia and the twins, remember Leto is "awake" and adult enough right after birth to guide Paul telepathically. There's, as far as I can see, no reason to think that the twins wouldn't have gone through the same awakening in utero as Alia did.





    That is certainly true, though as was pointed out earlier the question isn't actually how much of Leto is in his "pearls" the question is whether those pearls hold any of his DNA. If they do hold his DNA, then the DNA (in the Dune universe, not the real one obviously) would hold a full and complete copy of Leto's mind., regardless of how functional/complete the pearl is.


    Yup i'm wrong, by my def, the Baron H shouldn't have been there.
    Still, as another post pointed out, LetoII might be reawakened as a ghola but can another merge with his awareness by donning the skin? There's no answer. I wish Frank were here to tell us.
    Last edited by D Pope on 14 May 2010 21:29, edited 1 time in total.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby Eru » 14 May 2010 19:41

    On the topic of possession, haven't we discussed the possibility of Sheeana donning the skin, in which case her control over the new worms/trout may diminish the risk?
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby Nekhrun » 14 May 2010 20:24

    Eru wrote:On the topic of possession, haven't we discussed the possibility of Sheeana donning the skin, in which case her control over the new worms/trout may diminish the risk?

    Yes.

    Back to the DNA thing though. DNA does not grant OM. Memory can be reawakened by various means if you create a Ghola out of it, but I think there would be something special about the creative spark in the sperm/egg that would allow for OM. A continuation of the ancestral memories through the body's reproductive cycle. (Not that I believe it, but within the context of the book I think it makes sense).
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    Re: My skin is not my own...

    Postby SandChigger » 14 May 2010 22:40

    Omphalos wrote:No, it most certainly would not. First, none of Leto's memories would be in there. Second, a recopied Leto would be no more Leto than the sheep Dolly would be of its "mother." The potential is there, but you could not guarantee (or probably even realize) a photocopy of Leto by cloning his DNA. DNA is potential, not blueprints. Any geneticist will tell you that. We could clone Thing a million times and have a million different individuals.

    Wait, are you talking Real World or Duniverse here? Real World, right? :?

    I'm confoosed now. :shifty:

    A clone/ghola of Leto II (by Duniverse "rules") should have the potential of remembering his memories up until the time the DNA sample was taken (or death if it's a ghola grown from cells harvested after death ... from the carcass by the river?), but wouldn't actually remember them until some trauma designed to awaken them ... just like any other ghola/clone.
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