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    Chapterhouse as part of the GP

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    Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby mrpsbrk » 28 May 2010 11:35

    I believe this is the consensus here that after Siona has invisibility and Leto II transforms into sandtrout the GP is, basically, finished, and that the final falling into place of the multitude of pieces of the plan, which is to happen in the following thousands of years between GEoD and HoD, this falling into place just happens effortlessly. Also, that this process basically entails the Scattering. As in Freak's words:

    Freakzilla wrote:I don't think the goings on in HoD had anything to do with the GP, which Leto made sure was established before his division.


    That so, we could ask: What about HoD and Ch:D then? Just milking the previous success KJA-style? Or simply completely unrelated stories?

    Having lately re-read Ch:D, as opposed to simply going through GEoD as i tend to over and over again, i came to wonder... Why? One of the many possible takes on it is that Leto II by Taraza's time is "an older model" like the GEoD Duncan. Thus the whole Matres+Many Faces+Jews+no-no-no-ship+whathaveyou in Ch:D would simply be beyond Leto II. It would be more than He had gambled for. This view would be reflected for example in:

    Lionel Horsepackage wrote:thereby killing off all but the one worm they transported to Chapterhouse. In doing this, they destroyed the majority of the prescient hold Leto had, which was still locking humanity into just one path, the Golden Path.


    Not wanting to sound dismissive, but i think this line of reasoning has nothing to give us. Even by this point Leto's Diaries were not completely understood, at least not to the point of been seen as having one straightforward reading. Not only that, much of the current state-of-affairs was just too much his direct doing, as in Honored Matres = Fish Speakers. And finally, from GEoD to HoD we have 1500 years, which is HALF of Leto's age, so i pretty much guess that to His point of view that would not exactly amount to an eternity.

    Back to basics, trying to find some baseline definitions upon which to agree, we have Freak again:

    Freakzilla wrote:Blasphemy! The Golden Path was the survival of humanity, even in the form of Honored Matres if that was how it turned out.


    Well said, and something i would usually subscribe to, but... That being what i originally intended to say... After rereading Ch:D this just does not seem to fit. I say so because, throughout the first 1/3 of Ch:D, FH is very didactically telling us that we must NOT follow the Matres approach. He gives us a chapter where Odrade goes on and on about the illusion in the feeling of possessing something, directly followed by another chapter where he showcases how much the Gran HM is bound to her possessions. Then the same, focusing on prejudices, and so on.

    So, even if in a purely plot-oriented analysis we can say that Ch:D has nothing to do with the GP -- and even that sounds thin, to me -- even then in light of the structure of the book i believe we must take it as a furthering of the GP.

    I was finally motivated to come forward and again try to present my case by this guy:

    Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:My take on it is this: Tar is a heretic to the BG mainline. She has a vision in accord with Leto's, that of humanity finally freeing itself from heros, gods and emperors to such an extent that they will never be bound again.


    I would add: A vision in accord with Frank's. In fact, if you take the GP as getting rid of heroes and gods and "final authorities" then not only Ch:D makes much more sense, fitting with GEoD, we also fit GEoD with Dune itself, with a main theme and it's developments.

    In this light, i advance that Ch:D is an even better "twilight of idols", a better dethroning of the hero, than GEoD or even Dune itself. In Dune Paul tries to be the one to avoid feudalism and fails. In GEoD Leto tries to be this guy, but acknowledges that the attempt itself is bound to fail, in Ch:D Odrade does not try to but succeeds.

    We go from Paul that was a tide of destruction, to Leto that was the stilling of the tides, to Odrade that was swimming in the tides.

    A final point. Why i think that the GP=Scattering argument does not stand even purely in plot. In Ch:D we see the BG, in their not-finest moment, facing a dire lack of resources, make their own scattering, and if it was not as grand as Leto's it was enough that they had no idea whatsoever about what did go on with those people. Second, they did have no idea what happened with those people, and wondered about it, and knew and faced the fact that it was a reasonable backup plan but was much more a gamble than an actual plan (as in Odrade's musings about this). Third, the next so-big-nothing-looks-bigger-than character we have in the Chronicles, namely Marty and Daniel, they don't seem to be running at all, they seem like the archetype of the non-scattering people, two old people living by the fields. Fourth, the people returning from the Scattering we see are not like Siona, which Leto worked hard and long to create, but instead they are like the Fish Speakers, which to Leto were just a handy tool but not really his goal. And finally, one of the crucial pieces of whatever would be Dune 7, and therefore FH's in-story "future", is Sheeana, which is in-our-faces said to be Siona 2.0.
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby lotek » 28 May 2010 11:40

    mrpsbrk wrote:I believe this is the consensus here that after Siona has invisibility and Leto II transforms into sandtrout the GP is, basically, finished,


    I stopped reading after that...
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 28 May 2010 13:46

    mrpsbrk wrote:I believe this is the consensus here that after Siona has invisibility and Leto II transforms into sandtrout the GP is, basically, finished, and that the final falling into place of the multitude of pieces of the plan, which is to happen in the following thousands of years between GEoD and HoD, this falling into place just happens effortlessly. Also, that this process basically entails the Scattering. As in Freak's words:

    Freakzilla wrote:I don't think the goings on in HoD had anything to do with the GP, which Leto made sure was established before his division.


    That so, we could ask: What about HoD and Ch:D then? Just milking the previous success KJA-style?


    Yes, but with good writing and storytelling.

    Or simply completely unrelated stories?


    They aren't unrelated, they are about the fate of the core of the Old Empire.

    Having lately re-read Ch:D, as opposed to simply going through GEoD as i tend to over and over again, i came to wonder... Why? One of the many possible takes on it is that Leto II by Taraza's time is "an older model" like the GEoD Duncan. Thus the whole Matres+Many Faces+Jews+no-no-no-ship+whathaveyou in Ch:D would simply be beyond Leto II. It would be more than He had gambled for. This view would be reflected for example in:

    Lionel Horsepackage wrote:thereby killing off all but the one worm they transported to Chapterhouse. In doing this, they destroyed the majority of the prescient hold Leto had, which was still locking humanity into just one path, the Golden Path.


    What prescient hold? All the important people have the Siona Gene.

    Not wanting to sound dismissive, but i think this line of reasoning has nothing to give us. Even by this point Leto's Diaries were not completely understood, at least not to the point of been seen as having one straightforward reading. Not only that, much of the current state-of-affairs was just too much his direct doing, as in Honored Matres = Fish Speakers. And finally, from GEoD to HoD we have 1500 years, which is HALF of Leto's age, so i pretty much guess that to His point of view that would not exactly amount to an eternity.

    Back to basics, trying to find some baseline definitions upon which to agree, we have Freak again:

    Freakzilla wrote:Blasphemy! The Golden Path was the survival of humanity, even in the form of Honored Matres if that was how it turned out.


    Well said, and something i would usually subscribe to, but... That being what i originally intended to say... After rereading Ch:D this just does not seem to fit. I say so because, throughout the first 1/3 of Ch:D, FH is very didactically telling us that we must NOT follow the Matres approach. He gives us a chapter where Odrade goes on and on about the illusion in the feeling of possessing something, directly followed by another chapter where he showcases how much the Gran HM is bound to her possessions. Then the same, focusing on prejudices, and so on.

    So, even if in a purely plot-oriented analysis we can say that Ch:D has nothing to do with the GP -- and even that sounds thin, to me -- even then in light of the structure of the book i believe we must take it as a furthering of the GP.


    Nothing anyone does will effect all of humanity, that was part of the GP.

    I was finally motivated to come forward and again try to present my case by this guy:

    Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:My take on it is this: Tar is a heretic to the BG mainline. She has a vision in accord with Leto's, that of humanity finally freeing itself from heros, gods and emperors to such an extent that they will never be bound again.


    I would add: A vision in accord with Frank's. In fact, if you take the GP as getting rid of heroes and gods and "final authorities" then not only Ch:D makes much more sense, fitting with GEoD, we also fit GEoD with Dune itself, with a main theme and it's developments.


    Could it be that Tar just wanted to destroy the two remaining sources of spice leaving the BG the sole source?

    In this light, i advance that Ch:D is an even better "twilight of idols", a better dethroning of the hero, than GEoD or even Dune itself. In Dune Paul tries to be the one to avoid feudalism and fails. In GEoD Leto tries to be this guy, but acknowledges that the attempt itself is bound to fail, in Ch:D Odrade does not try to but succeeds.

    We go from Paul that was a tide of destruction, to Leto that was the stilling of the tides, to Odrade that was swimming in the tides.

    A final point. Why i think that the GP=Scattering argument does not stand even purely in plot. In Ch:D we see the BG, in their not-finest moment, facing a dire lack of resources, make their own scattering, and if it was not as grand as Leto's it was enough that they had no idea whatsoever about what did go on with those people. Second, they did have no idea what happened with those people, and wondered about it, and knew and faced the fact that it was a reasonable backup plan but was much more a gamble than an actual plan (as in Odrade's musings about this). Third, the next so-big-nothing-looks-bigger-than character we have in the Chronicles, namely Marty and Daniel, they don't seem to be running at all, they seem like the archetype of the non-scattering people, two old people living by the fields. Fourth, the people returning from the Scattering we see are not like Siona, which Leto worked hard and long to create, but instead they are like the Fish Speakers, which to Leto were just a handy tool but not really his goal. And finally, one of the crucial pieces of whatever would be Dune 7, and therefore FH's in-story "future", is Sheeana, which is in-our-faces said to be Siona 2.0.


    The Siona Gene doesn't make a difference when people are so scattered that one person can't rule them all.

    That was another part of the GP.

    The Siona Gene Hid the Atreides descendants until The SCattering spread people out enough to where one threat couldn't destroy them all.

    Human survival, that's what it was all about.
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 28 May 2010 15:08

    mrpsbrk wrote:That so, we could ask: What about HoD and Ch:D then? Just milking the previous success KJA-style? Or simply completely unrelated stories?


    Yes, that is exactly what FH was doing, he just differs from KJA in that he wrote something that was worth something for that extra milk money. I can't remember exactly where the information comes from, but I think some one close to him is on record saying that Frank specifically said he was done after GEoD, the final 2 he just wrote because the publishers offered him too much money to refuse.

    So.. yeah. Next question?
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby SandRider » 28 May 2010 15:14

    Norman Spinrad, my interview with, this forum .....


    also: can we get a "You Must This Tall to Start Thread" sign put up at all the waterseals ?
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby Omphalos » 28 May 2010 16:30

    SandRider wrote:Norman Spinrad, my interview with, this forum .....


    Other forum. :wink:
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 28 May 2010 16:54

    Just for the record, I get where you're coming from, that you want the GP to be some nearly incomprehsibly complex plan, Hari Seldon style. That's what I wanted too when I was reading it, but eventually it became clear that it was just his plan to make sure humanity survived, and once the scattering occured, humanity would survive (or at least never be threatended by one threat). In that, it is simple.

    But it is complex in it's hatching, look at how Leto set up the empire to find their own way out of spice dependance and scatter.
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby SandChigger » 28 May 2010 20:26

    Leto didn't attempt to micro-manage the future, didn't even look ahead much beyond a certain point. Says so himself, and also tells us what the Golden Path is. So unless you have some reason to think he's lying...

    But you go right on trying to make it some incredibly complex philosophy there, morpork, and keep on spinnin' 'round on your thumbs. At least it keeps you busy and off the streets. :)
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby A Little Galach » 28 May 2010 22:35

    You typed a lot of words. That's abot as complimentary as I can get with that post.

    Although you may want to check out this guy on DuneNovels, he's got some killer poetry you might like.
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby mrpsbrk » 29 May 2010 00:32

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:Just for the record, I get where you're coming from, that you want the GP to be some nearly incomprehsibly complex plan, Hari Seldon style. That's what I wanted too when I was reading it, but eventually it became clear that it was just his plan to make sure humanity survived, and once the scattering occured, humanity would survive (or at least never be threatended by one threat). In that, it is simple.


    No, i want not. In fact, i am convinced that GP == Listening to the Left Hand.

    For the record, i don't want anyone to agree with me, and the whole "this tall to post" is just... silly.
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby merkin muffley » 29 May 2010 00:59

    mrpsbrk wrote:For the record, i don't want anyone to agree with me, and the whole "this tall to post" is just... Let's say that in my country you would be asked to leave for behaving like that.


    I just can't believe someone would say that on the day Gary Coleman died.
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby SandChigger » 29 May 2010 03:04

    Isn't this more about the Gripping Palm == Loving Your Left Hand? :roll:
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 29 May 2010 03:26

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:Just for the record, I get where you're coming from, that you want the GP to be some nearly incomprehsibly complex plan, Hari Seldon style. That's what I wanted too when I was reading it, but eventually it became clear that it was just his plan to make sure humanity survived, and once the scattering occured, humanity would survive (or at least never be threatended by one threat). In that, it is simple.


    No, i want not. In fact, i am convinced that GP == Listening to the Left Hand.

    For the record, i don't want anyone to agree with me, and the whole "this tall to post" is just... Let's say that in my country you would be asked to leave for behaving like that.


    I'm familiar with the left hand path, but I'm sorry, I don't get where you're going with this. I do aplaud your thinking outside the conventional acceptance of the GP, but that doesn't necessarily make you right. I'm genuinely trying to understand your position. Please refer to my other post in the GP discussion (different thread) and we'll continue this from there.
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby Lundse » 29 May 2010 05:45

    I believe Frank's initial intention was that humanity was basically saved after GEoD; when Leto II dies, his plan comes into fruition - people will scatter beyond any chance of binding them under one rule, and prescience has lost its power to find everyone and enable the same regardless of physical distance.

    We more or less have Frank's word that the final two books, and by extension any possible Dune 7 he may have considered or planned, are unnecessary. As Freak said, thinking of them as "what happened to the old empire" makes perfect sense. One could of course also imagine all sorts of other groups "out there" and their individual struggles for survival - and I am sure KJA will dictate some wonderful crossovers where Star Wars, Star Trek and E.T. all turn out to be Scattered remnants who will over the course of several "Whoever To The Galaxy On The Left Of Dune" trilogies.

    ANYWAY, I do applaud you thinking out of the box, but I just don't see all of humanity being in danger, in HoD and CHD. The Scattered people are not in danger; rather, the few of them that come back are a danger to the old empire. There is no talk of super-prescience which will enable some future ruler to find and enslave everyone.
    Or maybe one could imagine Marty and Daniel and their web as this possible danger. That maybe the Honored Matres are fleeing the Advanced and Free Facedancers, who are able to find everyone - except Duncan...

    Something interesting did happen, as the Ithaca escaped; they did so by blanking their computer memory. By no longer being able to find their own way back, M&D's web could no longer hold them. To me, this suggests that the web is a manifestation (or rather, visualisation) of M&D's ability to somehow find them because they had the mere chance of finding M&D themselves.

    This might be crazy, but it might also tie into how prescience and the Siona gene works. We know prescience is "blurred" by other prescients. The way I think this (must necessarily) work, is that if A knows what B will do (if A himself takes some specific path of action), then he can predict accurately (of all such B's are basically the same). But if B can do the same, then A cannot be sure of the results his path will bring - A cannot predict B, because B might change his actions tomorrow, by using prescience. Have enough such Bs around, and nothing is predictable.
    I think the Siona gene is what Odrade experiences; the latent ability to be prescient. Because if everyone in the universe could conceivably become prescient in the next moment (or are subconsciously tapping into some small prescient ability), then no one prescient, no matter how strong, would be able to see very much of anything. Everyone becomes a constant check on everyone else, and noone can ever hold the one big advantage that allows a single ruler - a situation we know Frank was a proponent for, cf. for instance Commitee of the Whole.

    So what are Marty and Daniel doing, then? Maybe they are looking at the possible paths of action, even though they will never be taken. Someone on the Ithaca might one day decide to go back to Chapterhouse, and M&D might have control of Chapterhouse at that point in time. If they are able to look at such possibilities in detail, then there might very well be a possible future where they could interogate or scan the controls to find out where the Ithaca "was at the present moment" (as Douglas Adams said, the major problem of time travel is... "quite simply one of grammar").
    Postulating such an ability, everyone is in danger once again. But the Ithaca is not, because they have, in a sense, taken themselves out of the causal loop by never being able to return at all!

    So thanks for raising the question, I for one am not entirely done debating it (with myself)...
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby Serkanner » 29 May 2010 06:56

    Lundse wrote:
    This might be crazy, but it might also tie into how prescience and the Siona gene works. We know prescience is "blurred" by other prescients. The way I think this (must necessarily) work, is that if A knows what B will do (if A himself takes some specific path of action), then he can predict accurately (of all such B's are basically the same). But if B can do the same, then A cannot be sure of the results his path will bring - A cannot predict B, because B might change his actions tomorrow, by using prescience. Have enough such Bs around, and nothing is predictable.


    So, are you suggesting the net is a sort of artificial form of prescience? Considering the existence of artificial spice and artificial navigators I find this an idea worth discussing --> theme for Dune 7 perhaps?
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby SandRider » 29 May 2010 10:13

    no, no, feel free to "post" all you want -
    it's the starting threads based on erroneous readings with meaningless & irrelevant arguments,
    which causes everybody to get in the thread and explain several times in plain English why you're
    wrong, and then another few pages of you saying, "yes, I see what you're saying, but this is my
    pointless and inane idea" and people finally giving up and the thread dying with you learning nothing
    and going about your business for a few months until you drop back in and do it all over again ...

    more actual reading of other threads and commenting there, and less of this desperate ploy
    for attention, looka-me-Imma-Doon-Skolar bullshit ....

    and yeah, in your country, I'd probably be "asked to leave" ... or arrested in the night by a death squad
    and tried in a kangaroo court and executed by whatever military junta is currently in power ... but this
    here server is in AMURICA son, where we say what we want and settle our differences with shotguns ...


    and for those of you who think I'm being harsh on this guy, do some back-reading;
    all this had happened before, and happen again ...
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby SandChigger » 29 May 2010 10:26

    (Lundse, please stop calling the no-ship "Ithaca". That's McDune crap. :( )
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 29 May 2010 10:49

    Shotgun duels? That sounds awesome! :lol:
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby mrpsbrk » 29 May 2010 11:15

    Lundse wrote:I believe Frank's initial intention was that humanity was basically saved after GEoD; when Leto II dies, his plan comes into fruition - people will scatter beyond any chance of binding them under one rule, and prescience has lost its power to find everyone and enable the same regardless of physical distance.


    Oh, yeah, of course, that should be it. How didn't i see it earlier?

    Except... well... Didn't Teg see the no-ships?

    Lundse wrote:We more or less have Frank's word that the final two books, and by extension any possible Dune 7 he may have considered or planned, are unnecessary.


    Yeah, i've seen that quote. That is probably it. Except... I've read books that FH wrote both before and after Dune and GEoD and they all possess the same messages, with differing levels of depth. So the plot is all different, but the preaching that is behind the plot is the same. So...

    You see, i used to subscribe to that way of thought. I used to think that GEoD was fscking unsurpassabe. Until i reread Ch:D very closely. Now i am not so sure. Also, keep in mind that for people older than me (us i guess) who where around before DM everything after Dune was seen as superfluous.

    Lundse wrote:ANYWAY, I do applaud you thinking out of the box, but I just don't see all of humanity being in danger, in HoD and CHD.


    Um, well, i didn't say it was.

    I just happen to think that the Golden Path, instead of taking responsibility away from people's hands (we are scattered, son, there is nothing left for you to do), it is pretty simply and straightforwardly and mainly about people taking it back. About people not leaving it in for the hero/ prophet/ emperor/ whathaveyou, who by his turn will also put it in someone else's hand, so basically we are all just going blindly.

    I think the GP is forcing people to be self-reliant. And all the other stuff, all the plot points, are meaningless if we forget this basic assumption.

    And, also, i think that GP = Scattering basically does this, assumes that nothing else anyone does after that is meaningless because our good pap The Worm already saved us all. Like Jaisys saved us all. Or Caesar. Or... You see? I believe that taking Leto II to have ended all problems is exactly the opposite of what He's done. He made all problems meaningful, instead of making everything disposable.
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby SandRider » 29 May 2010 11:22

    Freakzilla wrote:Shotgun duels? That sounds awesome! :lol:


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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby Lundse » 29 May 2010 13:34

    Serkanner wrote:So, are you suggesting the net is a sort of artificial form of prescience? Considering the existence of artificial spice and artificial navigators I find this an idea worth discussing --> theme for Dune 7 perhaps?


    More that it is a visualisation. As I recall, Duncan saw it "within", and not on any external monitors.
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby Lundse » 29 May 2010 13:35

    SandChigger wrote:(Lundse, please stop calling the no-ship "Ithaca". That's McDune crap. :( )


    Damnit!

    I knew they'd get some stupid detail lodged in my brain eventually. Thanks for pointing it out.
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby Omphalos » 29 May 2010 17:55

    Lundse wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:(Lundse, please stop calling the no-ship "Ithaca". That's McDune crap. :( )


    Damnit!

    I knew they'd get some stupid detail lodged in my brain eventually. Thanks for pointing it out.


    Don't sweat it, man. That McDune shit is insidious.
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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby SandRider » 29 May 2010 23:02

    not if you've never read it !!

    :dance:

    :clap:

    :hand:







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    Re: Chapterhouse as part of the GP

    Postby TheDukester » 30 May 2010 00:12

    SandRider wrote:not if you've never read it !!

    Amen to that, my southern-fried homey.
    "Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.
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