• Register
  • Login
  •          

    Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Image
      Post your own creative writing

    Moderators: Omphalos, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ

    Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby mrpsbrk » 05 Jun 2010 00:01

    loremaster - emphasis mine wrote:And i think another, which is worthy of debate - is the idea that leto empowered the bene gesserit as custodians of the golden path (I bequeath to you.....) etc. I think he knew that from time to time pressures and key logs might build up in the scattering which would threaten significant chunks of humanity, or maybe snowball. So he installed the HM/BG hybrids as guardians to watch for future threats from the sidelines.


    Are the BG custodians of the GP? Although the Tabr Message does not say this, it does say that the BG could have created the GP even without Leto II.

    If the Scattering view of the GP is to be trusted, though, the BG around the time of HoD and Ch:D are completely useless to Leto II's plan. But the whole "noble purpose" and "survive whole" thing just... makes me wonder.

    For reference, that is the complete message in the Tabr:

    Heretics of Dune wrote:"A REVEREND MOTHER WILL READ MY WORDS!"

    "I BEQUEATH TO YOU MY FEAR AND LONELINESS. TO YOU I GIVE THE CERTAINTY THAT THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE BENE GESSERIT WILL MEET THE SAME FATE AS ALL OTHER BODIES AND ALL OTHER SOULS."

    "WHAT IS SURVIVAL IF YOU DO NOT SURVIVE WHOLE? ASK THE BENE TLEILAX THAT! WHAT IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE? MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!"

    "WHY DID YOUR SISTERHOOD NOT BUILD THE GOLDEN PATH? YOU KNEW THE NECESSITY. YOUR FAILURE CONDEMNED ME, THE GOD EMPEROR, TO MILLENNIA OF PERSONAL DESPAIR."
    Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)
    User avatar
    mrpsbrk
     
    Posts: 158
    Joined: 20 Dec 2008 11:08
    Location: Brazil

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby SandChigger » 05 Jun 2010 02:14

    Didn't loremaster retract that in a later comment?

    Are the BG custodians of the GP?

    The Golden Path does not need custodians. Evidently Leto hoped the BG would rise to the occasion when necessary and become protectors and leaders of various human populations, but such a role was no longer possible FOR ALL OF HUMANITY. (If they can never find or know all pockets of humanity throughout the multiverse, how the fuck could they ever act as custodians of the GP?)

    Although the Tabr Message does not say this, it does say that the BG could have created the GP even without Leto II.

    That's an accusation, not a commission.

    That Leto saw (in the sense of imagined or hope for) a role for the BG is evinced by the fact that he did not eradicate them when he very well could have.

    That he wanted instead to help ensure their survival is shown by the spice hoard he left at Tabr.
    User avatar
    SandChigger
    KJASF Ground Zero
     
    Posts: 14487
    Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
    Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby Thodol » 05 Jun 2010 02:39

    Yeah, the GP is that humanity can never be controlled by a single power and therefore cannot be destroyed. Regardless of how prescient or powerful no single authority can control or destroy ALL of humanity. By its nature the GP does not need or could possibly have a custodian. This does not mean that Leto II would not want to minimize suffering or have someone who can see a piece of the "big picture" after the GP had been implemented around to assist humanity.

    Horrible shit will still occur while on the GP, but it will not destroy all of humanity.
    Thodol
     
    Posts: 27
    Joined: 31 May 2010 09:42

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby mrpsbrk » 06 Jun 2010 01:53

    Thodol wrote:Yeah, the GP is that humanity can never be controlled by a single power and therefore cannot be destroyed.


    Geez, come on, the "controlled by a single power" thing adds a lot of wrinkles to the whole shebang!
    Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)
    User avatar
    mrpsbrk
     
    Posts: 158
    Joined: 20 Dec 2008 11:08
    Location: Brazil

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby merkin muffley » 06 Jun 2010 02:01

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Thodol wrote:Yeah, the GP is that humanity can never be controlled by a single power and therefore cannot be destroyed.


    Geez, come on, the "controlled by a single power" thing adds a lot of wrinkles to the whole shebang!


    Do you have to wipe your ass before you start typing, or are you used to the smell. Can you lick your own testicles? Everyone and their cat tells me that it adds a lot of wrinkles to the whole shebang.
    "I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."
    User avatar
    merkin muffley
     
    Posts: 1584
    Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
    Location: War Room

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby SandChigger » 06 Jun 2010 02:08

    mrpsbrk wrote:Geez, come on, the "controlled by a single power" thing adds a lot of wrinkles to the whole shebang!

    You're a fucking moron. Seriously.

    Since pulling it out is obviously no longer an option, why don't you try shoving your head even further up your ass? Who knows, you might be able to force it back out between your shoulders again! Wouldn't that be something for the annals! :lol:
    User avatar
    SandChigger
    KJASF Ground Zero
     
    Posts: 14487
    Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
    Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby mrpsbrk » 06 Jun 2010 02:12

    SandChigger wrote:
    Although the Tabr Message does not say this, it does say that the BG could have created the GP even without Leto II.

    That's an accusation, not a commission.

    That Leto saw (in the sense of imagined or hope for) a role for the BG is evinced by the fact that he did not eradicate them when he very well could have.


    Since it is a letter delivered 1000+ years after Leto died, how could it be a commission?

    :crazy:

    But seriously, accusation or not, if the GP could be accomplished by the BG, who had a completely different set of means, then maybe it could be more subtle than "Scatter away". For example, i think it would be foolish to suggest that the BG create 3000 years of Leto's piece -- which thus would make the "famine times" less likely.

    More to the point, if the BG could have created the GP without Leto's 3000 years, then it is not so much of a stretch to expect the sisters to be necessary to the GP by HoD -- and don't forget that to Leto HoD is not too much time after his death, it is less than half his lifetime away, which means that even if He expected that the GP to "need no maintainers" Odrade, Teg and CO could still fall into "jump-starter" category.

    To be perfectly clear about this: i don't know what is the "right" way to understand the Tabr message, nor do i know if the BG are the custodians of the GP. I just think it is worth some pondering....
    Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)
    User avatar
    mrpsbrk
     
    Posts: 158
    Joined: 20 Dec 2008 11:08
    Location: Brazil

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby SandChigger » 06 Jun 2010 03:00

    mrpsbrk wrote:Since it is a letter delivered 1000+ years after Leto died, how could it be a commission?

    :crazy:

    First off, FUCK YOU.

    Second, it's a MESSAGE, not a LETTER. The two words do not mean the same thing in this context.

    But seriously, accusation or not, if the GP could be accomplished by the BG, who had a completely different set of means, then maybe it could be more subtle than "Scatter away".

    MORON.

    For example, i think it would be foolish to suggest that the BG create 3000 years of Leto's piece -- which thus would make the "famine times" less likely.

    Yes, that's an incredibly stupid idea. And look who suggests it! :roll:

    Actually it NEVER needed be anything more complex than "Scatter away". Instead of using their influence to further expand human space on the sly, the Bene Gesserit simply sought power within the existing system. They thought only inside the box.

    More to the point, if the BG could have created the GP without Leto's 3000 years, then it is not so much of a stretch to expect the sisters to be necessary to the GP by HoD

    THEY ARE NOT NECESSARY TO THE GOLDEN PATH "BY THAT TIME". BY THAT TIME THE PATH IS ALREADY FIRMLY ESTABLISHED.

    -- and don't forget that to Leto HoD is not too much time after his death, it is less than half his lifetime away, which means that even if He expected that the GP to "need no maintainers" Odrade, Teg and CO could still fall into "jump-starter" category.

    This is mrpork babble banter. Anyway, he couldn't see them because of the Siona gene.

    To be perfectly clear about this: i don't know what is the "right" way to understand the Tabr message, nor do i know if the BG are the custodians of the GP. I just think it is worth some pondering....

    So ponder away. But.
    User avatar
    SandChigger
    KJASF Ground Zero
     
    Posts: 14487
    Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
    Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 06 Jun 2010 03:06

    Naive guess is that Leto meant that the BG could have bred for the Siona gene centuries ago, rather than breeding for a KH. That's not sufficient for a scattering, but I think his point was that the BG saw the need but did NOTHING.

    That doesn't imply they're needed later for the GP to work, though. The time for that has passed because Leto did it himself.

    HBJ
    "The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
    - Carl Sagan

    I'm still very proud of The Quarry but … let's face it; in the end the real best way to sign off would have been with a great big rollicking Culture novel.
    - Iain Banks
    User avatar
    Hunchback Jack
     
    Posts: 1980
    Joined: 30 May 2008 15:02
    Location: California, USA

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby lotek » 06 Jun 2010 07:00

    mrpsbrk wrote:(...)But seriously(...)
    More to the point,(...)
    To be perfectly clear about this:

    :lol:
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
    User avatar
    lotek
     
    Posts: 5734
    Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby merkin muffley » 06 Jun 2010 07:21

    mrpsbrk wrote:just... makes me wonder


    Yes, lets...

    Your mind is a mystery, wrapped in an enigma, inside an asshole.
    "I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."
    User avatar
    merkin muffley
     
    Posts: 1584
    Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
    Location: War Room

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby Thodol » 06 Jun 2010 08:35

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Thodol wrote:Yeah, the GP is that humanity can never be controlled by a single power and therefore cannot be destroyed.


    Geez, come on, the "controlled by a single power" thing adds a lot of wrinkles to the whole shebang!



    But that is a center piece to the problem... Humanity depends on spice, spice is restricted to a single planet. All interstellar travel is thus restricted. There is more to the picture but these are the most pertinent issues. The no-gene is kind of a cop out, as is the limits of prescience. Leto II would not be able to perceive a greater prescience than his own in the future. So could not account for a power that extends beyond no-tech and the no-gene. He must have temporal limits as well, he cannot see infinitely into the future (he fostered his own restrictions).

    But the BG are children compared to his abilities. I see the message more as a mocking. They knew it was needed and did not even TRY. I do not believe they could have accomplished the GD regardless. But they did not even attempt, forcing Leto to endure thousands of years of personal torment. If there was another possibility I doubt he would suffer as he did. And if we doubt the accuracy of his prescience it invalidates most of the story...stupid.
    Thodol
     
    Posts: 27
    Joined: 31 May 2010 09:42

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby mrpsbrk » 06 Jun 2010 10:29

    SandChigger wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:Since it is a letter delivered 1000+ years after Leto died, how could it be a commission?

    :crazy:

    Second, it's a MESSAGE, not a LETTER. The two words do not mean the same thing in this context.


    Ok, since it is a MESSAGE delivered 1000+ years after Leto died, how could it be a comission?
    Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)
    User avatar
    mrpsbrk
     
    Posts: 158
    Joined: 20 Dec 2008 11:08
    Location: Brazil

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby Serkanner » 06 Jun 2010 10:53

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:Since it is a letter delivered 1000+ years after Leto died, how could it be a commission?

    :crazy:

    Second, it's a MESSAGE, not a LETTER. The two words do not mean the same thing in this context.


    Ok, since it is a MESSAGE delivered 1000+ years after Leto died, how could it be a comission?


    I suggest you re-read the topic. It is NOT a commission, it is an accusation. You are making a fool of yourself... to put it mildly.
    "... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

    “There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

    Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
    and wrote a Dune Novel."
    User avatar
    Serkanner
     
    Posts: 2778
    Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
    Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby mrpsbrk » 06 Jun 2010 10:56

    Thodol wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Thodol wrote:Yeah, the GP is that humanity can never be controlled by a single power and therefore cannot be destroyed.


    Geez, come on, the "controlled by a single power" thing adds a lot of wrinkles to the whole shebang!



    But that is a center piece to the problem...


    I appreciate your point of view. But i believe it is at odds with the generally perceived nature of the GP here, that it mainly is about distance -- making humanity big enough to be invulnerable to any single threat. That might also have the side-effect of making it impossible to control, but that would be seen as only a side-effect, certainly not CENTRAL.

    Thodol wrote:Humanity depends on spice, spice is restricted to a single planet. All interstellar travel is thus restricted. There is more to the picture but these are the most pertinent issues. The no-gene is kind of a cop out, as is the limits of prescience. Leto II would not be able to perceive a greater prescience than his own in the future. So could not account for a power that extends beyond no-tech and the no-gene. He must have temporal limits as well, he cannot see infinitely into the future (he fostered his own restrictions).


    Well, if it was the Spice monopoly that "bound humanity to a single power", wouldn't the single power -- which i read to be the Emperor -- be more directly connected to Spice? It was he that granted mining rights to the Harkonnen, true, but i assume he also "grants" basically all the rights in this society, even ones he has nothing to do with (like pundi-rice in Caladan).

    Just the fact that there is a monopoly somewhere turns a given society into a monarchy/feudalism -- automatically?

    Thodol wrote:But the BG are children compared to his abilities. I see the message more as a mocking. They knew it was needed and did not even TRY. I do not believe they could have accomplished the GD regardless. But they did not even attempt, forcing Leto to endure thousands of years of personal torment. If there was another possibility I doubt he would suffer as he did. And if we doubt the accuracy of his prescience it invalidates most of the story...stupid.


    I have no idea whether or not the BG could have accomplished the GP. I do take Leto's assessment of the matter as more relevant than yours :-)

    Besides, it is not completely fair to say that the BG didn't try. They for example put a lot of effort into a breeding program and into religion engineering -- tools that Leto would then just take for himself. They were trying to "mature humanity", so, even if they did not start the scattering, they did work in some directions that Leto approved of, as He Himself said.
    Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)
    User avatar
    mrpsbrk
     
    Posts: 158
    Joined: 20 Dec 2008 11:08
    Location: Brazil

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby mrpsbrk » 06 Jun 2010 10:59

    Serkanner wrote:I suggest you re-read the topic. It is NOT a commission, it is an accusation. You are making a fool of yourself... to put it mildly.


    I can read. I did not say it was a commission. In fact, in my first post says "Although the Tabr Message does not say" that it is a commission.

    Chig tried foolishly to put words on my mouth and you fell for his trick like a duck. You are making a fool of yourself.
    Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)
    User avatar
    mrpsbrk
     
    Posts: 158
    Joined: 20 Dec 2008 11:08
    Location: Brazil

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby mrpsbrk » 06 Jun 2010 11:05

    Heretics of Dune wrote:"I BEQUEATH TO YOU MY FEAR AND LONELINESS."


    I find it much more interesting (than what Leto didn't commission) what He actually did: His fear and His loneliness.

    Instead of wheels within wheels, instead of plans, instead of numbers, of distances, a very pungent and personal experience.
    Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)
    User avatar
    mrpsbrk
     
    Posts: 158
    Joined: 20 Dec 2008 11:08
    Location: Brazil

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby SandChigger » 06 Jun 2010 11:07

    FUCK. YOU.

    And it's 1500+ years, moron.

    READ the books again, the real words on the pages. WITH your eyes open this time.

    Moron.
    User avatar
    SandChigger
    KJASF Ground Zero
     
    Posts: 14487
    Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
    Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby merkin muffley » 06 Jun 2010 11:57

    mrpsbrk wrote:But i believe it is at odds with the generally perceived nature of the GP here, that it mainly is about distance -- making humanity big enough to be invulnerable to any single threat.



    For Godsakes, still with the "big enough" thing. Different pockets of humanity become remote from each other through the scattering. It's not called The Swelling.

    FROM THE BEGINNING OF THIS "CONVERSATION", you have not been able to grasp the difference between pockets of humanity becoming remote from each other" and "humanity getting bigger."

    What is it? Not listening? Too thick? Too arrogant? Too in love with your own drivel? All of the above?


    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Thodol wrote:But the BG are children compared to his abilities. I see the message more as a mocking. They knew it was needed and did not even TRY. I do not believe they could have accomplished the GD regardless. But they did not even attempt, forcing Leto to endure thousands of years of personal torment. If there was another possibility I doubt he would suffer as he did. And if we doubt the accuracy of his prescience it invalidates most of the story...stupid.


    I have no idea whether or not the BG could have accomplished the GP. I do take Leto's assessment of the matter as more relevant than yours :-)


    Again, not even the issue in question. I think Thodol's main point is that Leto probably wouldn't have gone through thousands of years of torment if the BG could've accomplished the GP in his place. I believe he's proposing that Leto's assessment of the BG can be read from his choice to carry out the GP and endure thousands of years of suffering.

    Therefore...
    mrpsbrk wrote:I do take Leto's assessment of the matter as more relevant than yours :-)

    ...does not make any fucking sense, bay-beee. It's another example of you saying a completely inane thing in an extremely smug manner.

    (EDIT: quote fixed)
    mrpsbrk wrote:Since it is a letter delivered 1000+ years after Leto died, how could it be a commission?


    YOU said something vague and muddled,
    Someone took issue with it because it's unclear and you're not making any sense,
    Your response is to argue that nobody would be stupid enough to say the thing that you originally said?

    Can you see the problem with that? Are you still confused about the fact that your solipsistic arguments go absolutely nowhere?
    Last edited by merkin muffley on 06 Jun 2010 16:17, edited 1 time in total.
    "I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."
    User avatar
    merkin muffley
     
    Posts: 1584
    Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
    Location: War Room

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby merkin muffley » 06 Jun 2010 12:02

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Heretics of Dune wrote:"I BEQUEATH TO YOU MY FEAR AND LONELINESS."


    I find it much more interesting (than what Leto didn't commission) what He actually did: His fear and His loneliness.

    Instead of wheels within wheels, instead of plans, instead of numbers, of distances, a very pungent and personal experience.


    You're an idiot.
    "I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."
    User avatar
    merkin muffley
     
    Posts: 1584
    Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
    Location: War Room

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby TheDukester » 06 Jun 2010 12:20

    Edit: this post will soon be replaced by a bunny with a pancake on its head.
    Last edited by TheDukester on 06 Jun 2010 16:42, edited 1 time in total.
    "Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.
    User avatar
    TheDukester
     
    Posts: 3808
    Joined: 20 Jun 2008 13:44
    Location: Operation Enduring Bacon

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby Serkanner » 06 Jun 2010 12:39

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:I suggest you re-read the topic. It is NOT a commission, it is an accusation. You are making a fool of yourself... to put it mildly.


    I can read. I did not say it was a commission. In fact, in my first post says "Although the Tabr Message does not say" that it is a commission.

    Chig tried foolishly to put words on my mouth and you fell for his trick like a duck. You are making a fool of yourself.


    You can read, but don't understand what you are reading. Worse, you don't seem to grasp your own writing:

    "Are the BG custodians of the GP? Although the Tabr Message does not say this, it does say that the BG could have created the GP even without Leto II."

    Read it again spanky or re-write it so that it does say what you want it to say.
    "... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

    “There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

    Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
    and wrote a Dune Novel."
    User avatar
    Serkanner
     
    Posts: 2778
    Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
    Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby merkin muffley » 06 Jun 2010 15:47

    Serkanner wrote:Worse, you don't seem to grasp your own writing:

    "Are the BG custodians of the GP? Although the Tabr Message does not say this, it does say that the BG could have created the GP even without Leto II."


    mrpsbrk wrote:Who would ask if the BG were custodians of the GP, and imply that the BG could have created the GP even without Leto II? :crazy:
    "I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."
    User avatar
    merkin muffley
     
    Posts: 1584
    Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
    Location: War Room

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby Robspierre » 06 Jun 2010 15:58

    The Golden Path could not have guardians. It was designed in such a way that it would continue on despite the best efforts of guardians to guide it. That was part of the point of the GP. No matter who tried to interfere and for what reasons the GP would still take place.

    Rob
    User avatar
    Robspierre
     
    Posts: 2160
    Joined: 19 Feb 2008 10:49
    Location: Cascadia

    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby merkin muffley » 06 Jun 2010 17:36

    Upon arriving at customs, Wilde made his now-famous statement: "I have nothing to declare except my genius."
    "I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."
    User avatar
    merkin muffley
     
    Posts: 1584
    Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
    Location: War Room

    Next

    Return to ˲

    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest