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    Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby mrpsbrk » 06 Jun 2010 21:57

    Robspierre wrote:The Golden Path could not have guardians. It was designed in such a way that it would continue on despite the best efforts of guardians to guide it. That was part of the point of the GP. No matter who tried to interfere and for what reasons the GP would still take place.


    Can anyone provide a quote where Leto says something equivalent to "The Golden Path could not have guardians"?
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby mrpsbrk » 06 Jun 2010 22:00

    merkin muffley wrote:FROM THE BEGINNING OF THIS "CONVERSATION", you have not been able to grasp the difference between pockets of humanity becoming remote from each other" and "humanity getting bigger."


    Both are about distance.
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Jun 2010 22:20

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Robspierre wrote:The Golden Path could not have guardians. It was designed in such a way that it would continue on despite the best efforts of guardians to guide it. That was part of the point of the GP. No matter who tried to interfere and for what reasons the GP would still take place.


    Can anyone provide a quote where Leto says something equivalent to "The Golden Path could not have guardians"?


    Got one that says it could?
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby merkin muffley » 06 Jun 2010 22:21

    mrpsbrk wrote:"pockets of humanity becoming remote from each other" and "humanity getting bigger."

    Both are about distance.


    Each phrase also has the word "humanity" in it, but they're still two different things.


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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Jun 2010 22:23

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    merkin muffley wrote:FROM THE BEGINNING OF THIS "CONVERSATION", you have not been able to grasp the difference between pockets of humanity becoming remote from each other" and "humanity getting bigger."


    Both are about distance.


    No, one involves an increase in the number of people.
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby merkin muffley » 06 Jun 2010 22:44

    SCATTER - disperse: to cause to separate and go in different directions

    SWELL - increase in size, magnitude, number, or intensity
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby Thodol » 06 Jun 2010 23:14

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Robspierre wrote:The Golden Path could not have guardians. It was designed in such a way that it would continue on despite the best efforts of guardians to guide it. That was part of the point of the GP. No matter who tried to interfere and for what reasons the GP would still take place.


    Can anyone provide a quote where Leto says something equivalent to "The Golden Path could not have guardians"?


    I am sure in the upcoming 6 book series, "The Idiots Guide to Dune" it will be directly stated. Until then we are forced to rely on rational thought and deductive reasoning.
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 07 Jun 2010 00:40

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Robspierre wrote:The Golden Path could not have guardians. It was designed in such a way that it would continue on despite the best efforts of guardians to guide it. That was part of the point of the GP. No matter who tried to interfere and for what reasons the GP would still take place.


    Can anyone provide a quote where Leto says something equivalent to "The Golden Path could not have guardians"?


    Rob pretty much said it. We don't need Leto's word on this. The GP by its nature could not have guardians. Its main purpose was to free humanity of any kind of oversight - benign, malign or otherwise - and it did so by scattering humanity beyond anyone's ability to locate or communicate with everyone else. It also resulted in the diversity (through isolation) to ensure humanity would not stagnate or self-destruct.

    The idea of a "qualitative" aspect of the GP, where the BG are in some way charged with permeating humanity with advantageous religions/philosophies/attutudes, is an interesting one, but unfortunately it contradicts the basic premise of what the GP tries to achieve - that no one can influence all of humanity.

    It's unclear how the BG could do much in any case, given the Siona gene which rendered humanity invisible to prescience, and the BG's seeming inability to learn of anything outside the old empire. None of their own sisters returned with any info.

    So, interesting speculation, but doesn't hold up.

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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby mrpsbrk » 07 Jun 2010 10:17

    Hunchback Jack wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:Can anyone provide a quote where Leto says something equivalent to "The Golden Path could not have guardians"?


    We don't need Leto's word on this. The GP by its nature could not have guardians.


    Petitio principii.

    Hunchback Jack wrote:So, interesting speculation, but doesn't hold up.


    It is NOT a speculation. I am just asking for a quote. Can you provide one? Can i take that as a no?
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby merkin muffley » 07 Jun 2010 10:40

    This is petitio principii:

    "Dear Friend, a man who has studied law to its highest degree is a brilliant lawyer, for a brilliant lawyer has studied law to its highest degree." (Oscar Wilde)

    This is also petitio prinicipii:

    There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's own safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.
    "That's some catch, that catch-22," he observed.
    "It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.


    This is not petitio principii:

    Robspierre wrote:The Golden Path could not have guardians. It was designed in such a way that it would continue on despite the best efforts of guardians to guide it. That was part of the point of the GP. No matter who tried to interfere and for what reasons the GP would still take place.


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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby mrpsbrk » 07 Jun 2010 11:56

    GEoD wrote:(Emphasis mine) The Duncans always think it odd that I choose women for combat forces, but my Fish Speakers are a temporary army in every sense. While they can be violent and vicious, women are profoundly different from men in their dedication to battle. The cradle of genesis ultimately predisposes them to behavior more protective of life. They have proved to be the best keepers of the Golden Path. I reinforce this in my design for their training. They are set aside for a time from ordinary routines. I give them special sharings which they can look back upon' with pleasure for the rest of their lives. They come of age in the company of their sisters in preparation for events more profound. What you share in such companionship always prepares you for greater things. The haze of nostalgia covers their days among their sisters, making those days into something different than they were. That's the way today changes history. All contemporaries do not inhabit the same time. The past is always changing, but few realize it.

    -The Stolen Journals


    This does not say whether or not the GP needs custodians or not, but it certainly says it has keepers. As you all keep picking on my language, not sure keeper/custodian/guardian/commissioners amount to the same, but...
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 07 Jun 2010 12:05

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    GEoD wrote:(Emphasis mine) The Duncans always think it odd that I choose women for combat forces, but my Fish Speakers are a temporary army in every sense. While they can be violent and vicious, women are profoundly different from men in their dedication to battle. The cradle of genesis ultimately predisposes them to behavior more protective of life. They have proved to be the best keepers of the Golden Path. I reinforce this in my design for their training. They are set aside for a time from ordinary routines. I give them special sharings which they can look back upon' with pleasure for the rest of their lives. They come of age in the company of their sisters in preparation for events more profound. What you share in such companionship always prepares you for greater things. The haze of nostalgia covers their days among their sisters, making those days into something different than they were. That's the way today changes history. All contemporaries do not inhabit the same time. The past is always changing, but few realize it.

    -The Stolen Journals


    This does not say whether or not the GP needs custodians or not, but it certainly says it has keepers. As you all keep picking on my language, not sure keeper/custodian/guardian/commissioners amount to the same, but...


    This is from the time when he was still setting the path in motion though, at this time it does indeed need people keeping an eye on it (he says himself that if he dies too early the path will fail).
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby Serkanner » 07 Jun 2010 12:49

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    GEoD wrote:(Emphasis mine) The Duncans always think it odd that I choose women for combat forces, but my Fish Speakers are a temporary army in every sense. While they can be violent and vicious, women are profoundly different from men in their dedication to battle. The cradle of genesis ultimately predisposes them to behavior more protective of life. They have proved to be the best keepers of the Golden Path. I reinforce this in my design for their training. They are set aside for a time from ordinary routines. I give them special sharings which they can look back upon' with pleasure for the rest of their lives. They come of age in the company of their sisters in preparation for events more profound. What you share in such companionship always prepares you for greater things. The haze of nostalgia covers their days among their sisters, making those days into something different than they were. That's the way today changes history. All contemporaries do not inhabit the same time. The past is always changing, but few realize it.

    -The Stolen Journals


    This does not say whether or not the GP needs custodians or not, but it certainly says it has keepers. As you all keep picking on my language, not sure keeper/custodian/guardian/commissioners amount to the same, but...


    You really don't understand the books, do you? I have seen a number of topics with numerous posts that prove without ANY shred of doubt you don't. Read the books again!
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby Omphalos » 07 Jun 2010 13:32

    Better yet, just stick with the prequels. They won't tax you so much.
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby mrpsbrk » 07 Jun 2010 13:51

    Serkanner wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:
    GEoD wrote:(Emphasis mine) The Duncans always think it odd that I choose women for combat forces, but my Fish Speakers are a temporary army in every sense. While they can be violent and vicious, women are profoundly different from men in their dedication to battle. The cradle of genesis ultimately predisposes them to behavior more protective of life. They have proved to be the best keepers of the Golden Path. I reinforce this in my design for their training. They are set aside for a time from ordinary routines. I give them special sharings which they can look back upon' with pleasure for the rest of their lives. They come of age in the company of their sisters in preparation for events more profound. What you share in such companionship always prepares you for greater things. The haze of nostalgia covers their days among their sisters, making those days into something different than they were. That's the way today changes history. All contemporaries do not inhabit the same time. The past is always changing, but few realize it.

    -The Stolen Journals


    This does not say whether or not the GP needs custodians or not, but it certainly says it has keepers. As you all keep picking on my language, not sure keeper/custodian/guardian/commissioners amount to the same, but...


    You really don't understand the books, do you? I have seen a number of topics with numerous posts that prove without ANY shred of doubt you don't. Read the books again!


    I did. I am. I will.

    You are quibbling with Frank in this one, though...
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 07 Jun 2010 13:59

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Hunchback Jack wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:Can anyone provide a quote where Leto says something equivalent to "The Golden Path could not have guardians"?


    We don't need Leto's word on this. The GP by its nature could not have guardians.


    Petitio principii.


    It's not circular reasoning. If I said "I can't protect my house from birds with a flying dog because dogs, by their nature, can't fly", that's not circular reasoning. It's a conclusion reached through logical argument. Where is the logical reasoning in "The GP by its nature could not have guardians", you might ask? It's in the next few sentences of my previous post, which you did not quote.

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Hunchback Jack wrote:So, interesting speculation, but doesn't hold up.


    It is NOT a speculation. I am just asking for a quote. Can you provide one? Can i take that as a no?


    The idea that the GP needs guardians is speculation; that's what I was referring to. I didn't provide a quote from Leto because, as I wrote, a quote from Leto isn't needed. Other text in the books provides the answers.

    Let it go, mrpsbrk. It just doesn't hold up. Selectively refuting individual sentences from others' posts while ignoring the rest, or insisting on specious proofs (e.g. a quote from Leto explicitly refuting your point) won't help that.

    Edited: to remove snarky closing comment.

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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby merkin muffley » 07 Jun 2010 14:33

    The Fish Speakers are Leto II's combat force, an extension of his power while he is setting the Golden Path in motion. That's a completely different thing than the Bene Gesserit being custodians of the GP.


    mrpsbrk wrote:You are quibbling with Frank in this one, though...


    Not true, bay-beeee...


    EDIT: typo
    Last edited by merkin muffley on 07 Jun 2010 15:32, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby Serkanner » 07 Jun 2010 15:26

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:
    GEoD wrote:(Emphasis mine) The Duncans always think it odd that I choose women for combat forces, but my Fish Speakers are a temporary army in every sense. While they can be violent and vicious, women are profoundly different from men in their dedication to battle. The cradle of genesis ultimately predisposes them to behavior more protective of life. They have proved to be the best keepers of the Golden Path. I reinforce this in my design for their training. They are set aside for a time from ordinary routines. I give them special sharings which they can look back upon' with pleasure for the rest of their lives. They come of age in the company of their sisters in preparation for events more profound. What you share in such companionship always prepares you for greater things. The haze of nostalgia covers their days among their sisters, making those days into something different than they were. That's the way today changes history. All contemporaries do not inhabit the same time. The past is always changing, but few realize it.

    -The Stolen Journals


    This does not say whether or not the GP needs custodians or not, but it certainly says it has keepers. As you all keep picking on my language, not sure keeper/custodian/guardian/commissioners amount to the same, but...


    You really don't understand the books, do you? I have seen a number of topics with numerous posts that prove without ANY shred of doubt you don't. Read the books again!


    I did. I am. I will.

    You are quibbling with Frank in this one, though...


    Sigh ... You keep talking out of your ass. Fuck it, I'm not wasting more time on an idiot.
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby TheDukester » 07 Jun 2010 16:40

    Serkanner wrote:Fuck it, I'm not wasting more time on an idiot.

    Hey, welcome to the club! We meet on Tuesdays and there's a pot-luck on the last Saturday of the month.
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby Freakzilla » 07 Jun 2010 16:53

    You, the first person to encounter my chronicles for at least four thousand
    years, beware. Do not feel honored by your primacy in reading the revelations of
    my Ixian storehouse. You will find much pain in it. Other than the few glimpses
    required to assure me that the Golden Path continued, I never wanted to peer
    beyond those four millennia.
    Therefore, I am not sure what the events in my
    journals may signify to your times. I only know that my journals have suffered
    oblivion and that the events which I recount have undoubtedly been submitted to
    historical distortion for eons. I assure you that the ability to view our
    futures can become a bore. Even to be thought of as a god, as I certainly was,
    can become ultimately boring. It has occurred to me more than once that holy
    boredom is good and sufficient reason for the invention of free will.

    -Inscription on the storehouse at bar-es-Balat

    Leto looked into the future past his death only to be assured the GP continued (human survival). The mere THOUGH of leaping out of his tower aerie caused the GP to wink out of existence. The purpose of The Scattering was to make humanity so spread out that a single threat could never destroy them all. This is why "keepers of the GP" are not possible. If there was any chance of the GP failing Leto would not have allowed himself to be assassinated.

    I cannot put this more simply for you and am growing tired of trying. :cry:
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby SandChigger » 07 Jun 2010 16:59

    Trying to get mrpork to understand this appears to be like trying to teach a slig to sing.

    Ready, all together now: It wastes your time and it annoys the slig. ;)
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby Nekhrun » 07 Jun 2010 17:06

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:
    GEoD wrote:(Emphasis mine) The Duncans always think it odd that I choose women for combat forces, but my Fish Speakers are a temporary army in every sense. While they can be violent and vicious, women are profoundly different from men in their dedication to battle. The cradle of genesis ultimately predisposes them to behavior more protective of life. They have proved to be the best keepers of the Golden Path. I reinforce this in my design for their training. They are set aside for a time from ordinary routines. I give them special sharings which they can look back upon' with pleasure for the rest of their lives. They come of age in the company of their sisters in preparation for events more profound. What you share in such companionship always prepares you for greater things. The haze of nostalgia covers their days among their sisters, making those days into something different than they were. That's the way today changes history. All contemporaries do not inhabit the same time. The past is always changing, but few realize it.

    -The Stolen Journals


    This does not say whether or not the GP needs custodians or not, but it certainly says it has keepers. As you all keep picking on my language, not sure keeper/custodian/guardian/commissioners amount to the same, but...


    You really don't understand the books, do you? I have seen a number of topics with numerous posts that prove without ANY shred of doubt you don't. Read the books again!


    I did. I am. I will.

    You are quibbling with Frank in this one, though...


    I've tried to stay out of your comments as most of them make not sense, but on this one you're just being a jackass. Your brain doesn't seem to be making certain connections here. You've got a bunch of smart people telling you that you're way off and yet you continue. You just got your ass handed to you in the comments that followed the one I'm quoting, not to mention when it's happened to you in other threads. Don't you get that the material you quoted from FH has nothing to do with your argument? No, I guess you don't. Carry on with some more worthless comments.
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby mrpsbrk » 11 Jun 2010 14:31

    Freakzilla wrote:I cannot put this more simply for you and am growing tired of trying. :cry:


    So, Freak, let me propose an experiment. Let's say we take ALL the times the phrase "Golden Path" happens in GEoD, and analyse them. Let's say a quantitative approach.

    I used grep {grep -C 5 -n -i "golden path", to be precise} and came up with 51 occurrences (54, actually, but grep counts lines not tokens). After that, for each of them, i classified between 4 possible types. I chose those as being the possible "clear answers" to the question of "what is the Golden Path"? Namely:

    A) SURVIVAL -- as in if people are alive it is ok
    B) INVISIBILITY to prescience
    C) SCATTERING -- as in they need to be far enough
    D) OTHER

    SURVIVAL might be compatible with Invisibility and Scattering, or with almost anything really, but let's agree that it is a different, independent idea: Leto could have enforced survival in a multitude of ways. There was one more category that i thought about using, the DEEP LESSON category. It is fairly prominent, He is all the time talking about "something your bones will remember", but the problem is -- what lesson exactly? That is, anything whatsoever could be "a lesson". And OTHER is almost anything, either ideas more simple or more complex than were ever posted at jacurutu, or just different, this category is here to accept anything whatsoever.

    Please notice that there is no "abstruse theory" category. I am not trying to prove my point -- whatever it might be. I am trying to analyse yours.

    I'll put in the next post the actual results, with the irrelevant context pruned, but let me advance the numbers. They do not add to 54, first because i allowed a passage to "count" for more than one category, but also because i am not counting what other people say about the GP, only Leto, and there are some passages that i couldn't eve put on "other".

    SURVIVAL (11) INVISIBILITY (6) SCATTERING (3) OTHER (30)
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby mrpsbrk » 11 Jun 2010 14:33

    GEoD wrote:(1,2) The Golden Path demands it. And what is the Golden Path? you ask. It is the survival of humankind, nothing more nor less. We who have prescience, we who know the pitfalls in our human futures, this has always been our responsibility.

    SURVIVAL (x) INVISIBILITY (x) SCATTERING () OTHER ()
    ##############################
    (3, 4) Ahhh, that face! I still have it -- the only human skin I expose to the universe. All the rest of my flesh has remained covered by the linked bodies of those tiny deep sand vectors which one day can become giant sandworms. As they will... someday.

    I often think about my final metamorphosis, that likeness of death. I know the way it must come but I do not know the moment or the other players. This is the one thing I cannot know. I only know whether the Golden Path continues or ends.

    As I cause these words to be recorded, the Golden Path continues and for that, at least, I am content.

    SURVIVAL (x) INVISIBILITY () SCATTERING () OTHER (x)
    ##############################
    (5) Leto reflected. Was there need for Moneo to know this peculiar thing about his daughter? Siona could fade from the prescient view at times. The Golden Path remained, but Siona faded. Yet... she was not prescient. She was a unique phenomenon... and if she survived... Leto decided he would not cloud Moneo's efficiency with unnecessary information.

    SURVIVAL () INVISIBILITY (x) SCATTERING () OTHER (x)
    ##############################
    (6) "Recall how I treated you in similar circumstances," Leto said {to Moneo}. "You know the demands of the Golden Path as well as I do."

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    (7) But even while Siona surprises me, she reminds me of what I fear most -- the sameness and boredom which could break the Golden Path. Look at how boredom put me temporarily in the Duncan's power! Siona is the contrast by which I know my deepest fears. Moneo's concern for me is well grounded.

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    (8) You, the first person to encounter my chronicles for at least four thousand years, beware. Do not feel honored by your primacy in reading the revelations of my Ixian storehouse. You will find much pain in it. Other than the few glimpses required to assure me that the Golden Path continued. I never wanted to peer beyond those four millennia. Therefore, I am not sure what the events in my journals may signify to your times. I only know that my journals have suffered oblivion and that the events which I recount have undoubtedly been submitted to historical distortion for eons. I assure you that the ability to view our futures can become a bore. Even to be thought of as a god, as I certainly was, can become ultimately boring. It has occurred to me more than once that holy boredom is good and sufficient reason for the invention of free will.

    -Inscription on the storehouse at bar-es-Balat

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    (9, 10) "Time runs out for any finite observer. There are no closed systems. Even I only stretch the finite matrix."

    Moneo jerked his attention from Leto's face and peered into the distances of the mausoleum corridors. I will be here someday. The Golden Path may continue, but I will end. That was not important, of course. Only the Golden Path which he could sense in unbroken continuity, only that mattered. He returned his attention to Leto, but not to the all-blue eyes. Was there truly a predator lurking in that gross body?

    -- Moneo's view --
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    (11) "Others have survived the test, Moneo. You did."

    Moneo gulped, remembering how he had been sensitized to the Golden Path.

    -- Moneo's view --
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    (12) Odd as it may seem, great struggles such as the one you can see emerging from my journals are not always visible to the participants. Much depends on what people dream in the secrecy of their hearts. I have always been as concerned with the shaping of dreams as with the shaping of actions. Between the lines of my journals is the struggle with humankind's view of itself -- a sweaty contest on a field where motives from our darkest past can well up out of an unconscious reservoir and become events with which we not only must live but contend. It is the hydraheaded monster which always attacks from your blind side. I pray, therefore, that when you have traversed my portion of the Golden Path you no longer will be innocent children dancing to music you cannot hear.

    -The Stolen Journals

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    (13) The Duncans always think it odd that I choose women for combat forces, but my Fish Speakers are a temporary army in every sense. While they can be violent and vicious, women are profoundly different from men in their dedication to battle. The cradle of genesis ultimately predisposes them to behavior more protective of life. They have proved to be the best keepers of the Golden Path. I reinforce this in my design for their training. They are set aside for a time from ordinary routines. I give them special sharings which they can look back upon' with pleasure for the rest of their lives. They come of age in the company of their sisters in preparation for events more profound. What you share in such companionship always prepares you for greater things. The haze of nostalgia covers their days among their sisters, making those days into something different than they were. That's the way today changes history. All contemporaries do not inhabit the same time. The past is always changing, but few realize it.

    -The Stolen Journals

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    (14) She was far more of a rebel than he had been. Far more. Leto had tamed his Moneo, sensitized him to the Golden Path and the rightful duties for which he had been bred, but methods used on a Moneo would not work with Siona. In his observation of this, Moneo had learned things about his own training which he had never before suspected.

    -- Moneo's opinion --
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    (15) I could breed something like her and prepare that one for me... but that would not be my gentle Hwi.

    And what of the Golden Path while he indulged in such selfish goals?

    To hell with the Golden Path! Have these folly-bound idiots ever thought once of me? Not once!

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    (16) When I set out to lead humankind along my Golden Path. I promised them a lesson their bones would remember. I know a profound pattern which humans deny with their words even while their actions affirm it. They say they seek security and quiet, the condition they call peace. Even as they speak, they create the seeds of turmoil and violence. If they find their quiet security, they squirm in it. How boring they find it. Look at them now. Look at what they do while I record these words. Hah! I give them enduring eons of enforced tranquility which plods on and on despite their every effort to escape into chaos. Believe me, the memory of Leto's Peace shall abide with them forever. They will seek their quiet security thereafter only with extreme caution and steadfast preparation.

    -The Stolen Journals

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    (17) Siona got to her feet. "Have you asked the Worm why he confines us this way?"

    "Leto's Peace, the Golden Path to insure our survival. That's what he says."

    "Do you know what he told my father? I spied on them when I was a child. I heard him."

    "What did he say'?"

    "He said he denies us most crises, to limit our forming forces. He said: `People can be sustained by affliction. but I am the affliction now. Gods can become afflictions.' Those were his words, Duncan. The Worm is a sickness!"

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    (18) "You see, Duncan? Peace encourages aggression."

    "And you say that your Golden Path..."

    "Is not precisely peace. It is tranquility, a fertile ground for the growth of rigid classes and many other forms of aggression."

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    (19) "I don't believe any of this! You're playing some dangerous game of your own."

    "Very dangerous. I address ancient wellsprings of human behavior to redirect them. The danger is that I could suppress the forces of human survival. But I assure you that my Golden Path endures."

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    (20) "Do you keep my faith?"

    "Yes, Lord!"

    "Do you walk the Golden Path?"

    "Yes. Lord"

    The vibration of the women's shouts sent shock waves through Idaho, stunning him.

    -- Siaynoq - ritual words --
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    (21) "Ahhh, yes, and for the Atreides, melange may roll the mystery of Time through a peculiar process of internal revelation."

    "I have only to remember the way you tested me, Lord."

    "Do you not see the necessity for you to sense the Golden Path?"

    "That is not what I fear, Lord."

    "You fear the other astonishment, the thing which made me make my choice."

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    (22) "Nothing is ever separated from its source," he said. "Seeing futures is a vision of a continuum in which all things take shape like bubbles forming beneath a waterfall. You see them and then they vanish into the stream. If the stream ends, it is as though the bubbles never were. That stream is my Golden Path and I saw it end."

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    (24) "You know how you will die?"

    "Not how. I know only the Golden Path in which it will occur."

    "Lord, I do not..."

    "It is difficult to understand, I know. I will die four deaths -- the death of the flesh, the death of the soul, the death of the myth and the death of reason. And all of these deaths contain the seed of resurrection."

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    (25) "All religions are a single communion. The spectrum remains unbroken within the Golden Path. It is only that humans see first one part and then another. Delusions can be called accidents of the senses."

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    (26) She arose, then: "Lord, could you be wrong about your Golden Path? Does the possibility of failure..."

    "Anything and anyone can fail," he said, "but brave good friends help."

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    (27) "As you will."

    How gentle and open her quiet acceptance, he thought.

    The aching pulse within him had to be calmed. In itself, it was a danger to him and to the Golden Path.

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    (28) "When I am gone, they must call me Shaitan, the Emperor of Gehenna. The wheel must turn and turn and turn along the Golden Path."

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    (29) "People have to be prepared for saints," he said. "Otherwise, they simply become followers, supplicants, beggars and weakened sycophants forever in the shadow of the saint. People are destroyed by this because it nurtures only weakness."

    After a moment of thought, she nodded, then: "Will there be saints when you are gone?"

    "That's the purpose of my Golden Path."

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    (30) "Will Siona replace you if..."

    "Ahhh, what an enormous if! You observe that Siona threatens my person. However, she does not threaten the Golden Path. There is also the fact that my Fish Speakers have a certain attachment to the Duncan."

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    (31) "Does Ix still threaten your Golden Path? I've always known they conspired in something evil."

    -- Hwi Noree's opinion --
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    (32) The primate thinks and, by thinking, survives. Beneath his thinking is a thing which came with his cells. It is the current of human concerns for the species. Sometimes, they cover it up, wall it off and hide it behind thick barriers, but I have deliberately sensitized Moneo to these workings of his innermost self. He follows me because he believes I hold the best course for human survival. He knows there is a cellular awareness. It is what I find when I scan the Golden Path. This is humanity and both of us agree: it must endure!

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    (33) The pattern of monarchies and similar systems has a message of value for all political forms. My memories assure me that governments of any kind could profit from this message. Governments can be useful to the governed only so long as inherent tendencies toward tyranny are restrained. Monarchies have some good features beyond their star qualities. They can reduce the size and parasitic nature of the management bureaucracy. They can make speedy decisions when necessary. They fit an ancient human demand for a parental (tribal/feudal) hierarchy where every person knows his place. It is valuable to know your place, even if that place is temporary. It is galling to be held in place against your will. This is why I teach about tyranny in the best possible way by example. Even though you read these words after a passage of eons, my tyranny will not be forgotten. My Golden Path assures this. Knowing my message, I expect you to be exceedingly careful about the powers you delegate to any government.

    -The Stolen Journals

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    (34) For a few moments while he lay there {His tower}, he could shed the loads of the Golden Path. Moneo, good and reliable Moneo, would see that Siona arrived promptly, just at nightfall. Leto had a full day in which to relax and think, to play and pretend that he possessed no cares, to drink up the raw sustenance of the earth in a feeding frenzy which he could never indulge in at Onn or at the Citadel. In those places, he was required to confine himself to furtive burrowings through narrow passages where only prescient caution kept him from encountering waterpockets. Here, though, he could race through the sand and across it, feed and grow strong.

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    (35) "Your damned Golden Path!"

    "Not damned at all. Quite holy."

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    (36) Memory has a curious meaning to me, a meaning I have hoped others might share. It continually astonished me how people hide from their ancestral memories, shielding themselves behind a thick barrier of mythos. Ohhh, I do not expect them to seek the terrible immediacy of every living moment which I must experience. I can understand that they might not want to be submerged in a mush of petty ancestral details. You have reason to fear that your living moments might be taken over by others. Yet, the meaning is there within those memories. We carry all of our ancestry forward like a living wave, all of the hopes and joys and griefs, the agonies and the exultations of our past. Nothing within those memories remains completely without meaning or influence, not as long as there is a humankind somewhere. We have that bright Infinity all around us, that Golden Path of forever to which we can continually pledge our puny but inspired allegiance.

    -The Stolen Journals

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    (37, 38) "You have felt your past," he said. "Now, you must be sensitized to your future, to the Golden Path."

    She swallowed. "I don't believe in your Golden Path."

    "If you are to live, you will believe in it."

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    (39) "Without me there would have been by now no people anywhere, none whatsoever. And the path to that extinction was more hideous than your wildest imaginings."

    "Your supposed prescience," she sneered.

    "The Golden Path still stands open," he said.

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    (40) "You are the Golden Path," he said.

    "Me?" It was barely a whisper.

    "You've read those journals you stole from me," he said. "I am in them, but where are you? Look at what I have created, Siona. And you, you can create nothing except yourself."

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    (41) "The Golden Path," she whispered. "I can feel it." Then, glaring at him. "It's so cruel!"

    -- Siona's opinion --
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    (42, 43) He saw the flame of rebellion return to her eyes. She did not have to feel guilty or dependent. She no longer could avoid belief in his Golden Path, but what difference did that make? His cruelties could not be forgiven! She could reject him, deny him a place in her family. He was not a human, not like her at all. And she possessed the secret of his undoing! Ring him with water, destroy his desert, immobilize him within a moat of agony! Did she think she hid her thoughts from him by turning away?

    And what can I do about it? he wondered. She must live now while I must demonstrate nonviolence.

    Now that he knew something of Siona's nature, how easy it would be to surrender, to sink blindly into his own thoughts. It was seductive, this talon to live only within his memories, but his children still required another lesson-by-example if they were to escape the last threat to the Golden Path.

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    (44, 45) She has survived as I did. Siona now had an inner sense which told her that the Golden Path remained unbroken. As I have. He found no sense of sharing in this, nothing to make him feel closer to his daughter. It was a burden and it would inevitably curb her rebellious nature. No Atreides could go against the Golden Path. Leto had seen to that!

    -- Moneo's opinion --
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    (46,47) "Lord, I know you have tested her and she..."

    "She senses the Golden Path as deeply as you do, Moneo."

    "Then why do I fear her, Lord?"

    "Because you raise reason above all else."

    "But I do not know the reason for my fear!"

    Leto smiled. This was like playing bubble dice in an infinite bowl. Moneo's emotions were a marvelous play performed only on this stage. How near the edge he walked without ever seeing it!

    "Moneo, why do you insist on taking pieces out of the continuum?" Leto asked. "When you see a spectrum, do you desire one color there above all the others?"

    "Lord, I don't understand you!"

    Leto closed his eyes, remembering the countless times he had heard this cry. The faces were an unseparated blend. He opened his eyes to erase them.

    "As long as one human remains alive to see them, the colors will not suffer a linear mortis even if you die, Moneo."

    "What is this thing of colors, Lord?"

    "The continuum, the never-ending, the Golden Path."

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    (48) "The Golden Path endures, Moneo. You know that as well as I"

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    (49,50) Leto flexed his front segments away from Malky to face Moneo. "Do you really serve the Golden Path, Moneo?"

    "Ahhh, the Golden Path," Malky taunted.

    "You know I do, Lord," Moneo said.

    -- Moneo's opinion --
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    (51) Leto squirmed away and went to the shadowed limit of the chamber, keeping his attention on the faint arc of a line which would become an opening into the night if he merely converted the wish into a thought-of-command. What a long drop that would be out there -- just roll off the landing-lip. He doubted that even his body would survive it. But there was no water in the sand beneath his tower and he could feel the Golden Path winking in and out of existence merely because he allowed himself to think of such an end.

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    (52) "How did he test you?" Idaho asked.

    "He showed me a... he showed me his Golden Path."

    -- Siona's opinion --
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    (53) "My gift," Leto said. "Nobody will find the descendants of Siona. The Oracle cannot see her."

    "What?" They spoke in unison, leaning close to hear his fading voice.

    "I give you a new kind of time without parallels," he said. "It will always diverge. There will be no concurrent points on its curves. I give you the Golden Path. That is my gift. Never again will you have the kinds of concurrence that once you had."

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    (54) Siona said: "I am different, but still I am what he was."

    Idaho spoke in a hushed whisper: "The ancestors, all of..."

    "The multitude is there but I walk silently among them and no one sees me. The old images are gone and only the essence remains to light his Golden Path."

    -- Siona's opinion --
    Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)
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    mrpsbrk
     
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    Re: Bene Gesserith as custodians of the Golden Path

    Postby merkin muffley » 11 Jun 2010 14:55

    You, sir, are a delight.
    "I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."
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