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    Scattering and Jihad

    Postby mrpsbrk » 05 Jun 2010 00:38

    It is not only in respect to the Scattering that we are told about "the need of the race to renew its scattered inheritance". There is another example of this energy: Muad'Dib's Jihad. And still, one of them is said to be the salvation of humanity and the other it's lowest common denominator. Why is it?

    From a merely plot-driven perspective, it makes absolutely no difference between Leto's Scattering and, say, Muad'Dib's Jihad raiding Ix and stealing some forbidden navigation technology and just running with it.

    Again, Muad'Dib too did play with the Scattering-causing forces. He created his Jihad. The energy is there all the time. I see it as a strong theme throughout the Chronicles. Everyone and their cats seem to try to discuss it, from Jessica to Odrade.

    If we can (could) agree that the pull is the same, then what is the difference between Jihad and Scattering?
    Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Jun 2010 01:53

    mrpsbrk wrote:... what is the difference between Jihad and Scattering?


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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby SandChigger » 05 Jun 2010 02:02

    mrpsbrk wrote:It is not only in respect to the Scattering that we are told about "the need of the race to renew its scattered inheritance".

    WHERE THE FUCK are we told THAT with respect to The Scattering? You're quoting from something that refers to jihad only:
    He remained silent, thinking like the seed he was, thinking with the race consciousness he had first experienced as terrible purpose. He found that he no longer could hate the Bene Gesserit or the Emperor or even the Harkonnens. They were all caught up in the need of their race to renew its scattered inheritance, to cross and mingle and infuse their bloodlines in a great new pooling of genes. And the race knew only one sure way for this—the ancient way, the tried and certain way that rolled over everything in its path: jihad.

    There is another example of this energy: Muad'Dib's Jihad. And still, one of them is said to be the salvation of humanity and the other it's lowest common denominator. Why is it?

    Pancake bunny word salad. This.
    From a merely plot-driven perspective, it makes absolutely no difference between Leto's Scattering and, say, Muad'Dib's Jihad raiding Ix and stealing some forbidden navigation technology and just running with it.

    Well, no, because if you PAY ANY ATTENTION AT ALL to the plot IN THE BOOKS you know that there are no forbidden Ixian Navigation Devices mentioned at the time of the Fremen Jihad. :roll:

    And even if there were, and they had foldspace ships to install them in, the OBJECT of the Fremen Jihad was to conquer the known Imperium and mix up them genes, NOT to escape from the strictures of control. So there's a MASSIVE DIFFERENCE between the Scattering and the Fremen Jihad.

    Again, Muad'Dib too did play with the Scattering-causing forces. He created his Jihad. The energy is there all the time. I see it as a strong theme throughout the Chronicles. Everyone and their cats seem to try to discuss it, from Jessica to Odrade.

    Meow.

    If we can (could) agree that the pull is the same, then what is the difference between Jihad and Scattering?

    Go reread the books WITHOUT your blinders on. Fuck.
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby Superdog » 05 Jun 2010 08:20

    Well.. the Jihad killed billions of people. The scattering ensured the eternal survival and freedom of humanity. So there's that.
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Jun 2010 08:45

    Paul's jihad was a temporary treatment for the stagnation of the empire, the GP was the cure.
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby mrpsbrk » 05 Jun 2010 09:02

    Superdog wrote:Well.. the Jihad killed billions of people. The scattering ensured the eternal survival and freedom of humanity. So there's that.


    The Jihad also was, in a way, "ensuring the survival", it just lacked someone to call it that way...
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Jun 2010 09:30

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    Superdog wrote:Well.. the Jihad killed billions of people. The scattering ensured the eternal survival and freedom of humanity. So there's that.


    The Jihad also was, in a way, "ensuring the survival", it just lacked someone to call it that way...


    :roll: You mean besides Paul?

    He remained silent, thinking like the seed he was, thinking with the race
    consciousness he had first experienced as terrible purpose. He found that he no
    longer could hate the Bene Gesserit or the Emperor or even the Harkonnens. They
    were all caught up in the need of their race to renew its scattered inheritance,
    to cross and mingle and infuse their bloodlines in a great new pooling of genes.
    And the race knew only one sure way for this--the ancient way, the tried and
    certain way that rolled over everything in its path: jihad.
    Surely, I cannot choose that way, he thought.

    ~Dune
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby TheDukester » 05 Jun 2010 11:10

    mrpsbrk wrote:If we can (could) agree that the pull is the same, then what is the difference between Jihad and Scattering?

    Oh, Christsakes ...

    You might try actually reading the books, you know.
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby merkin muffley » 05 Jun 2010 14:42

    SandChigger wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:Everyone and their cats seem to try to discuss it

    Meow.


    Are you making up colloquialisms now? You're more mixed up than a horse in cowshoes. Why don't you take the time to figure out something before you create an elaborate theory about it? And why don't you find some ideas in the book, instead of up your ass. And then how about acknowledging it when one of your theories gets shot down with concrete evidence, WHICH IS PRACTICALLY EVERY TIME YOU POST.
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby SandRider » 05 Jun 2010 14:50

    not possible - he got the arnolodo-disease ... Merritt-myopia ... the Icky-shuffle & them boogie-woogie blues ...
    ................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Jun 2010 14:57

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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 05 Jun 2010 15:07

    SandChigger wrote:
    From a merely plot-driven perspective, it makes absolutely no difference between Leto's Scattering and, say, Muad'Dib's Jihad raiding Ix and stealing some forbidden navigation technology and just running with it.

    Well, no, because if you PAY ANY ATTENTION AT ALL to the plot IN THE BOOKS you know that there are no forbidden Ixian Navigation Devices mentioned at the time of the Fremen Jihad. :roll:


    Exactly. If anyone had wanted to flee the Jihad (which was *not* Paul's intention), the lack of melange beyond the old empire would have made Scattering impossible. Paul's Jihad *may* have given an impetus for people to Scatter, but they did not yet have the means, and were not yet free from prescience in any case.

    SandChigger wrote:And even if there were, and they had foldspace ships to install them in, the OBJECT of the Fremen Jihad was to conquer the known Imperium and mix up them genes, NOT to escape from the strictures of control. So there's a MASSIVE DIFFERENCE between the Scattering and the Fremen Jihad.


    Yeah. That. But even if you're comparing Paul's Jihad to Leto's 3500 year rule as Scattering-creating forces, the melange and prescience factors prevent the Jihad from causing a Scattering, whereas Leto's rule was specifically designed to create one.

    HBJ
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby Superdog » 05 Jun 2010 16:42

    Freakzilla wrote:Paul's jihad was a temporary treatment for the stagnation of the empire, the GP was the cure.


    Inevitable, yes. But I don't see Paul's Jihad as a treatment, cuz I don't think anything positive really comes of it. It kills tons of people, introduces stagnation and cultural decay into the Fremen and they start terra-forming Arrakis too fast.
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Jun 2010 16:56

    Superdog wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Paul's jihad was a temporary treatment for the stagnation of the empire, the GP was the cure.


    Inevitable, yes. But I don't see Paul's Jihad as a treatment, cuz I don't think anything positive really comes of it. It kills tons of people, introduces stagnation and cultural decay into the Fremen and they start terra-forming Arrakis too fast.


    It mingled the Fremen genes with the native populations.
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby mrpsbrk » 05 Jun 2010 17:44

    merkin muffley wrote:Why don't you take the time to figure out something before you create an elaborate theory about it?


    I don't even know what is my "elaborate theory"...
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby merkin muffley » 05 Jun 2010 18:39

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    merkin muffley wrote:Why don't you take the time to figure out something before you create an elaborate theory about it?


    I don't even know what is my "elaborate theory"...


    You've got an elaborate theory, usually based on a very simple mistake or misreading of something, in practically every post.

    Here's one, posted under "first-person narrative," and I will use it to illustrate my point. This doesn't have anything to do with the Scattering and Jihad, but I'm in a hurry, and I can meet you back at the original thread later:
    mrpsbrk wrote:In the Chronicles, we have a narrator. Actions are described, not recalled, or told. It is not a monologue. But... So i began to think that each one of them is actually narrated from the third person, not-individually, but from this individual perspective. Thus everything we see and hear and pay attention to is part of this one person's approach to the world...But that would also mean that none of it all is straightly Frank's voice.


    Before you posted that drivel you should've figured out what a "first-person narrative" was. Based on the post, I don't think you know what a first-person narrative or a third-person narrative are. Regardless of the fact that you haven't figured out what a first-person narrative is, you've created an elaborate theory about it. Therefore, my suggestion is that you take the time to figure out something before you create an elaborate theory about it.
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Jun 2010 18:40

    mrpsbrk wrote:
    merkin muffley wrote:Why don't you take the time to figure out something before you create an elaborate theory about it?


    I don't even know what is my "elaborate theory"...


    Probably the one about The Scattering being more than what it was.
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 05 Jun 2010 18:53

    Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
    - Douglas Adams

    HBJ
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby Superdog » 05 Jun 2010 19:59

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Superdog wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Paul's jihad was a temporary treatment for the stagnation of the empire, the GP was the cure.


    Inevitable, yes. But I don't see Paul's Jihad as a treatment, cuz I don't think anything positive really comes of it. It kills tons of people, introduces stagnation and cultural decay into the Fremen and they start terra-forming Arrakis too fast.


    It mingled the Fremen genes with the native populations.


    Presumably that could have been done by having the Fremen travel off worlds and bang the hell out of everyone they met? :dance:
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 05 Jun 2010 20:03

    == Jihad.

    :P

    HBJ
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby mrpsbrk » 06 Jun 2010 01:11

    merkin muffley wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:
    merkin muffley wrote:Why don't you take the time to figure out something before you create an elaborate theory about it?


    I don't even know what is my "elaborate theory"...


    You've got an elaborate theory, usually based on a very simple mistake or misreading of something, in practically every post.


    Curiously, Dune is a whole book about "wheels within wheels within wheels", which should be pretty ripe for elaborate theories. But no, really, you misread me. I'll answer in the off-topic example.

    merkin muffley wrote:
    mrpsbrk wrote:In the Chronicles, we have a narrator. Actions are described, not recalled, or told. It is not a monologue. But... So i began to think that each one of them is actually narrated from the third person, not-individually, but from this individual perspective. Thus everything we see and hear and pay attention to is part of this one person's approach to the world...But that would also mean that none of it all is straightly Frank's voice.


    Before you posted that drivel you should've figured out what a "first-person narrative" was. Based on the post, I don't think you know what a first-person narrative or a third-person narrative are. Regardless of the fact that you haven't figured out what a first-person narrative is, you've created an elaborate theory about it. Therefore, my suggestion is that you take the time to figure out something before you create an elaborate theory about it.


    Well, i maintain that i do not have a theory, simply, because i do pass any law or judgement anywhere. I am not decreeing that the books must or mustn't be taken as this or that -- though i am pretty sure they are in the third person, but who knows... I was just musing idly about FH's use of this. I do not know what he was trying to accomplish with it, and i also did find many instances of chapters that don't follow said tendency -- before i posted. I even phrase things like "i began to think".

    You might think that i do have a elaborate theory, but the notion seems strange to the elaborate-theory-holder here. Maybe i do have. Who knows?

    Maybe i am just crappy at English -- i for sure can't write in English without a spell checker. Even if this is the case, i am neither the first nor the last person on Earth to express myself imperfectly, so...
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby merkin muffley » 06 Jun 2010 01:54

    Maybe it's not so much "elaborate" as it is "wrong at every turn." It's not a language problem, you just seem to have the basic story wrong. Therefore, your theories seem elaborate because it's as if you're arguing from a different book, or from a parallel universe where the colloquialisms are slightly different, and people type with their head in their ass. Is everyone's head in their ass in The Land of Mrpsrbk?
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby SandChigger » 06 Jun 2010 02:03

    mrpsbrk wrote:Maybe i am just crappy at English -- i for sure can't write in English without a spell checker. Even if this is the case, i am neither the first nor the last person on Earth to express myself imperfectly, so...

    Your English isn't the problem (except, evidently, when you're reading), asshat. It's that your ideas are apparently based on FUNDAMENTAL misunderstandings, or that they simply aren't interesting.

    (merkin! That's so weird, I was just considering giving him instructions about how to forcibly remove his head from his ass! But then I realized that I've never seen a case of one so firmly embedded as this! :lol: )
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby merkin muffley » 06 Jun 2010 02:13

    SandChigger wrote:(merkin! That's so weird, I was just considering giving him instructions about how to forcibly remove his head from his ass! But then I realized that I've never seen a case of one so firmly embedded as this! :lol: )

    :lol: everyone and their cat is discussing it
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    Re: Scattering and Jihad

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 28 Nov 2011 04:11

    yingxuy wrote:Why do not you take the time to find something, and then create an elaborate theory? Why do not you find some of the ideas in the book, not your ass.


    Ok, best spam ever! We should almost preserve this post somehow. :lol:
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