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    GP - Necessary?

    Postby Freakzilla » 21 Jun 2010 20:30

    I posted this comment in a BG topic but thought it might deserve its own.

    I like y'all to poke holes in it... if you can:

    ... how do we know the GP was necessary?

    Leto says so.

    Paul didn't see it.

    Now, I'm not saying Leto WAS the threat of extinction but that maybe his vision of one is what created the threat. There was quite a bit of time Leto spent in CoD severing all timelines except ones that lead to the begining of the GP. How do we know those other timelines didn't have extinction in them?

    Just like Paul chose the Jihad over the end of House Atreides, Leto may have chosen the GP for similar reasons. But instead of saving the Atreides, he makes everyone Atreides.

    Sure, he saved humankind. I'm not saying he didn't. Just maybe he chose the path that lead to extinction for the sole purpose of doing so.

    In effect, the GP was a bigger, better prescient trap that he had the solution for.
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 21 Jun 2010 22:19

    So are you saying that Leto chose the future which had the *specific kind* of extinction that could be solved by the GP?

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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby Freakzilla » 21 Jun 2010 22:47

    Hunchback Jack wrote:So are you saying that Leto chose the future which had the *specific kind* of extinction that could be solved by the GP?

    HBJ


    No, I'm saying that the only future he saw that allowed him to keep the Atreides throne had and extinction and resulted in him preventing it.

    "I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
    know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
    thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
    "It's that or humans will be extinguished."


    The Typhoon Struggle is Kralizec.

    Ghanima said: "He'll lead humans through the cult of death into the free air
    of exuberant life! He speaks of death because that's necessary, Stil. It's a
    tension by which the living know they're alive. When his Empire falls . . . Oh,
    yes, it'll fall. You think this is Kralizec now, but Kralizec is yet to come.
    And when it comes, humans will have renewed their memory of what it's like to be
    alive. The memory will persist as long as there's a single human living. We'll
    go through the crucible once more, Stil. And we'll come out of it. We always
    arise from our own ashes. Always."


    So the threat of extinction makes Kralizec, the fall of the empire, necessary.

    In GEoD, Leto says that people would have been extinct by then. So his 3,500 year rule, subsequent fall and resulting Scattering and Famine Times was necessary to prevent the extinction.

    Leto was half noble and half Fremen. The noble in him wanted to ensure the continuation of House Atreides, the Fremen in him allowed him to make the difficult choice and risk humanities extinction to do so.

    He chose to be humanities savior through his vision because it was the only way to carry out his plans.
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby SandChigger » 22 Jun 2010 01:07

    So you're saying he saw the threat of the Ixian super-hunter-seekers (with human extinction as a possibility) ahead along the same timeline as the successful establishment of the Golden Path and that he intentionally when ahead and chose that dangerous (potentially ruinous) timeline because he knew he could prevent the extinction event?

    OK.

    I started to post on this earlier, but decided to wait to see if anyone else had something to say...

    In the OP, you wrote (my emphasis):
    There was quite a bit of time Leto spent in CoD severing all timelines except ones that lead to the begining of the GP. How do we know those other timelines didn't have extinction in them?

    Did you mean, How do we know that those alternate paths he severed definitely led to extinction[s]?

    Also, the part about him making "everyone an Atreides" seems WAY overstated to me (in the same way it seems an overstatement to say that humanity becomes "infinite" after The Scattering) if you're talking about everyone having the Siona gene again.

    Not really poking holes in anything, just not completely clear/wanting to make sure where you're going. :)

    Returning to the first stuff above, is the main idea that by choosing the timeline to the GP, Leto might have caused secondary, potential extinction events (like the Ixians trying to create the super hunter-seekers) that otherwise might not have happened?

    If that's the basic gist, sure, I can agree with that. I'm just not sure we can prove it from the texts, though...
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 22 Jun 2010 01:40

    Okay, so let me try again, Freak:

    You're saying that the future that Leto chose was one in which the threat of extinction was caused, directly or indirectly, by his rise to power, but that the risk was necessary because Leto's reign was needed to cause the Scattering, which was his solution to avoiding extinction?

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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby SandChigger » 22 Jun 2010 02:41

    That would chime with the idea in the other thread of, for instance, the Ixians having designed the hunter-seekers as a weapon against Leto. (Not saying that's the way it played. Just as an example of something contingent upon his reign that might not have happened otherwise.) :)
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby lotek » 22 Jun 2010 05:17

    I am halfway through rereading GEoD(skipped CoD I felt like brain twisting), and I have this nagging thought(that I can't con or infirm yet).

    So in Dune Messiah we learn that Paul, even with his powers, still made mistakes and the obvious lesson from Frank Herbert regarding heroes, messiahs(plural?) was learned the hard way.

    So I am not saying that the GP was necessary or not, I am just wondering wether the fact that Dune was also a lesson in the dangers of absolutes, and in that respect why would it be different with Leto II?
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Jun 2010 10:52

    SandChigger wrote:In the OP, you wrote (my emphasis):
    There was quite a bit of time Leto spent in CoD severing all timelines except ones that lead to the begining of the GP. How do we know those other timelines didn't have extinction in them?

    Did you mean, How do we know that those alternate paths he severed definitely led to extinction[s]?


    Yeah, that sounds better.

    Also, the part about him making "everyone an Atreides" seems WAY overstated to me (in the same way it seems an overstatement to say that humanity becomes "infinite" after The Scattering) if you're talking about everyone having the Siona gene again.

    Not really poking holes in anything, just not completely clear/wanting to make sure where you're going. :)


    I'm a little hyperbolic there but I think you know what I mean. :P

    I think the Scattering and Famine Times were a preventative measure, not against anything Leto Saw, but against anyone trying what he did again.

    The Siona Gene was also insurance against this but was also the end result of his breeding program, and extension of the BG breeding program.

    "With provocation," he said. "But the only people I have considered eliminating
    are the Bene Gesserit."
    Her shock was too great for words.
    "They are so close to what they should be and yet so far," he said.


    I think Leto considered this because they were close to creating his GP but under the wrong conditions, like with the original KH.

    It is another theory of mine, which I'm pretty sure I've stated before, that his aim was for a latent KH with prescience just below consciousness that would hide them from prescience, warn of impending danger and just enough OM to act as conscious level instincts.

    Teg for example.

    Returning to the first stuff above, is the main idea that by choosing the timeline to the GP, Leto might have caused secondary, potential extinction events (like the Ixians trying to create the super hunter-seekers) that otherwise might not have happened?

    If that's the basic gist, sure, I can agree with that. I'm just not sure we can prove it from the texts, though...


    But we can't disprove it either, right? Scientifically we only need one negative experiment to disprove a theory, right?
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Jun 2010 10:54

    Hunchback Jack wrote:Okay, so let me try again, Freak:

    You're saying that the future that Leto chose was one in which the threat of extinction was caused, directly or indirectly, by his rise to power, but that the risk was necessary because Leto's reign was needed to cause the Scattering, which was his solution to avoiding extinction?

    HBJ


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the conventional thought is that Leto eliminated paths in which he couldn't prevent the extinction.

    I'm saying he chose THE ONE WITH extinction and consequently him being savior, because it fit the rest of his plans.
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 22 Jun 2010 11:37

    Hmm that is an interesting idea.

    But what were "his plans" if not to save humanity from extinction? To rule for 3500 years? Didn't Leto see that as a necessary evil of the GP?

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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Jun 2010 11:46

    Hunchback Jack wrote:Hmm that is an interesting idea.

    But what were "his plans" if not to save humanity from extinction? To rule for 3500 years? Didn't Leto see that as a necessary evil of the GP?

    HBJ


    Yeah, but who was he talking to when he said that?

    No, I think his main goal was that lesson "their bones would remember".
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Jun 2010 12:37

    But, even if he did choose a path with some extra threats caused by himself along the way, I don't know if that would render the GP unnecessary. I never saw the GP as being about any such short term threats as the ones that would have come up during his reign.

    I think I follow you Freak, but are you saying that without the GP humanity would probably have kept on going indefinitely? Otherwise, even if he caused a number of specific threats himself, I don't see how the GP could be unnecessary. :?
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Jun 2010 13:02

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:But, even if he did choose a path with some extra threats caused by himself along the way, I don't know if that would render the GP unnecessary. I never saw the GP as being about any such short term threats as the ones that would have come up during his reign.

    I think I follow you Freak, but are you saying that without the GP humanity would probably have kept on going indefinitely? Otherwise, even if he caused a number of specific threats himself, I don't see how the GP could be unnecessary. :?


    Maybe, maybe not. Leto said he didn't look past his own death except to ensure the GP remained so if we are to believe him he didn't see any specific threat of extinction. He may have deduced that they would go extinct or glimpsed a far future with no people but that wouldn't be the threat he claimed to have prevented.

    I'm not saying the GP was a bad thing just that it was probably was a general, broad spectrum defense against humanity huddling together and being wiped out. As far as convincing the shortsighted mortals like Moneo and Siona, the extinction he prevented in his lifetime was only a justification for them.
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Jun 2010 13:54

    I agree with that - your thread title threw me off.
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby aethereon » 22 Jul 2010 05:53

    ** Really choppy and crappy post. Apologies.
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby lotek » 22 Jul 2010 06:38

    you need to lay down on the lsd or whatever you've been taking :lol:
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby aethereon » 22 Jul 2010 07:15

    man, i love alice in wonderland. you know, that part where toto got kicked by the tin man.

    *kidding.

    Don't cut me any slack - I'm good for it.

    ::Edit:: Good to meet you Lotek, I am Raymond. ;)
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby merkin muffley » 22 Jul 2010 07:33

    I like "Pinball Wizard" for the sake of blindness.

    But does he even know he's playing pinball?
    "I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby lotek » 22 Jul 2010 07:42

    aethereon wrote:man, i love alice in wonderland. you know, that part where toto got kicked by the tin man.

    *kidding.

    Don't cut me any slack - I'm good for it.

    ::Edit:: Good to meet you Lotek, I am Raymond. ;)



    hey don't worry maybe it's me that can't understand ;)

    I liked the yellow brick road analogy but some of your post is... obscure :)
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby aethereon » 22 Jul 2010 07:52

    hey - that's me.

    Obscure might be the "perfect" word - I'll fix it later.
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby merkin muffley » 22 Jul 2010 08:15

    aethereon wrote:
    Obscure might be the "perfect" word - I'll fix it later.


    So do you think Leto saved humanity from a situation he put them into? (thing is, that question is already pretty obscure)
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Jul 2010 10:25

    merkin muffley wrote:
    aethereon wrote:
    Obscure might be the "perfect" word - I'll fix it later.


    So do you think Leto saved humanity from a situation he put them into? (thing is, that question is already pretty obscure)


    I wouldn't say he put them into it as much as his Vision of The Golden Path created the situation.

    The Vision itself created the need for it. :shock:
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby lotek » 22 Jul 2010 10:31

    Freakzilla wrote:I wouldn't say he put them into it as much as his Vision of The Golden Path created the situation.

    The Vision itself created the need for it. :shock:

    I love paradoxes!

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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby SandRider » 22 Jul 2010 14:13

    Freakzilla wrote:
    merkin muffley wrote:
    aethereon wrote:
    Obscure might be the "perfect" word - I'll fix it later.


    So do you think Leto saved humanity from a situation he put them into? (thing is, that question is already pretty obscure)


    I wouldn't say he put them into it as much as his Vision of The Golden Path created the situation.

    The Vision itself created the need for it. :shock:


    we've had this type of discussion before somewhere, that acting on prescient vision
    creates the future ...
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    Re: GP - Necessary?

    Postby merkin muffley » 22 Jul 2010 14:40

    SandRider wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote: his Vision of The Golden Path created the situation.


    ...acting on prescient vision
    creates the future ...



    Yeah, that's what I meant, but was unspecific. That happened with Paul (and at the end of DM he became trapped in an apocalyptic waking dream). Leto II thought he had broken humanity out of that trap... That doesn't sound quite right, and my brain hurts.
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