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    A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby leagued » 21 Mar 2013 20:51

    It would have to be really strong latent prescience though; Leto could see fully mutated Guild Navigators but not Siona.
    I think its a very precise form of inward-turned prescience, not an ability that could be awakened and turned outward and I think its related to Fenring's failed-KH traits. The hiding power comes from the same source as prescience but could never be turned outward. I guess I think of the two traits being related in the same way shields and foldspace engines are related- both are products of the Holtzman effect but you can't use the one to do the work of the other.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby Deskepticon » 22 Mar 2013 01:15

    Freakzilla wrote:As I said, it gives people latent prescience. It is well established that prescients cannot see each other. For example Paul could not see guild navigators or Bijaz.


    I agree. Though I would define it as a wild genetic expression of the Atreides gene. leagued's analogy with the holzman effect pins it down. Perfect prescience (KH) was one expression - the Siona gene is another - Teg's abilities are yet one more. . .
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby Jacob.B » 22 Mar 2013 02:49

    Freakzilla wrote:As I said, it gives people latent prescience. It is well established that prescients cannot see each other.


    Thinking about this, I feel happy enough with that understanding of the results of its expression. The gene is the cause of the latent prescience, prescients cannot see each other which gives Siona and etc.

    The variations of how, or the degree to which the gene is expressed in the various holders lends the concept a thought-process friendly footing within the books I suppose.

    Would have been a nice mental crutch if FH had thrown in a detailed Leto monologue pinning it down precisely, but then where's the fun in that!

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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby Freakzilla » 25 Mar 2013 08:32

    I also believe that this latent prescience is what surfaced in Miles Teg's 'Spidey Sense'.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby inhuien » 25 Mar 2013 11:41

    everybody wrote:latent prescience latent prescience latent prescience latent prescience latent prescience

    I've never been completely happy with that term, even if it is quoted from FHs novels.

    There I said it.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby Jacob.B » 25 Mar 2013 13:10

    inhuien wrote:
    everybody wrote:latent prescience latent prescience latent prescience latent prescience latent prescience

    I've never been completely happy with that term, even if it is quoted from FHs novels.

    There I said it.


    The concept, or just the actual words?

    If it's the words, then I say to you - latent prescience latent prescience latent prescience! :D

    Otherwise....Its fit within the concept of prescience/the GP and etc. didn't leap off the page at me certainly, but its use in this case seems appropriate.

    If interested you can google/wiki gene activation or 'regulation of gene expression.' The phrase 'latent gene expression' yields some interesting links to reasearch write-ups and scholarly articles.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby Freakzilla » 25 Mar 2013 13:23

    I got the idea from Julian May's Pliocene Exile series. People who can use their mental talents are called operant, people who have it but can't use it are called latent. Latent people can be raised to operancy under the right conditions.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby Freakzilla » 25 Mar 2013 13:24

    inhuien wrote:
    everybody wrote:latent prescience latent prescience latent prescience latent prescience latent prescience

    I've never been completely happy with that term, even if it is quoted from FHs novels.

    There I said it.


    It's not from the novels, it's my own theory.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby Freakzilla » 25 Mar 2013 13:41

    There are little hints throughout the series, though.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby inhuien » 25 Mar 2013 15:01

    Perhaps unknowingly prescience or unconscious prescience is closer to the point.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby JasonJD48 » 04 Feb 2015 00:28

    I know this is an old discussion, but I wanted to add something and I know the admins seem to encourage using old discussions rather than starting a new one on the same topic.

    I always took Duncan to have a proto version of the Siona gene, hence why he was re-created so many times by Leto II and played heavily in the breeding program despite being somewhat stunted by missing a few thousand years of enhancement. It would explain some of the earlier Dune Messiah quote on top of Edric's shielding which didn't seem to help Mohiam or Irulan that much. It would also explain the line in Chapterhouse regarding him having parts of it.

    As for what the Siona gene is, latent prescience is as good a theory as any, but it runs into some hiccups. Take 'oracles' and lets classify them by 'dimensions' not in a literal sense but as sort of levels of scope.
    1 Dimensional people would be normals, non-prescients and people like Mohiam that demonstrate very minor ability.
    2 Dimensional are the Guild Navigators and Paul.
    3 Dimensional is solely Leto II.

    No one can see an Oracle of the same or higher dimension. Paul cannot see the Navigators and vice-versa, he cannot see Leto II even in the womb. Leto II can see both the Navigators and Paul. Siona is the first person that Leto II cannot see, so if it is merely latent prescience, then its latent 3 dimensional prescience or higher. How can Leto assure that creating Siona wouldn't create another super-Oracle, one without his good intentions for humanity and one that he himself wouldn't have the ability to stop? Seems like a big risk.

    The closest canon example of a prescient beyond the Navigators post God-Emperor is Teg, but while his abilities allow him to see the No-Ships (I can't recall or find him seeing people with the Siona gene) he can only still see only moments into the future. How that fits in, I'm not sure. Is he a 4th dimensional? If so, that puts no-fields as 3rd dimensional and if he can't see Siona trait individuals, then they like him would also be 4th dimensional latently prescient. Perhaps this has to do with what Leto said as he died

    "I give you a new kind of time without parallels," he said. "It will always diverge. There will be no concurrent points on its curves. I give you the Golden Path. That is my gift. Never again will you have the kinds of concurrence that once you had."


    Perhaps the most an Oracle of any degree can see ahead into the future is a few moments to a day or so, because humanity has spread so far that there's so many choices determining the future that a clear line can't be seen. If Teg was born with the same abilities but 5000 years earlier, he'd be a game changer, but post-Leto, the future is literally un-seeable.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby georgiedenbro » 04 Feb 2015 14:52

    I, too, have wondered at exactly what Duncan's characteristics were as Hayt, and then later during GEoD and beyond. The passage about Edric's shielding of Hayt does seem insufficient to me to explain how Paul never saw him at all in the possible futures. The previous time this had happened was with Fenring, who was a potential KH and had the gift of staying hidden.

    That being said, it seems to be fairly established that no oracle of any level can see another oracle's activities, even though they can see the effects of the activities. Paul isn't on the same level at all as Guild Navigators, and it is outright stated that Navigators use a simple linear type of prescience whereas Paul used something orders of magnitude more complex and also of a different type that connected past and future. It's true that Paul couldn't see Leto II, but the fact that Leto II could see Paul may be because a) Paul gave up his visions, and b) Paul may have let him. We don't know what sorts of interactions oracles can have with each other who aren't direct opponents or are even allies. I don't think it's stated anywhere that Leto II could see Navigators, in any case, although he had such a command of his power that he could deduce all he ever needed to in terms of keeping the Empire under total control.

    By all rights it seems fair to say that Paul and Leto II had more or less precisely the same ability, except that Leto II was willing to think about future paths Paul wouldn't consider and therefore explored entire avenues of possibility that Paul's personality dismissed as unacceptable.

    My personal view of prescient shielding is simply that prescience cannot account for chaotic behavior, or for people who will wield far more power than the prescient and that therefore can dictate the course of events above what the prescient can. It follows from this that prescient shielding is therefore a combination of having significant influence in the course of events, and having unpredictable or chaotic tendencies, such as we see in the case of Leto (example: his sneak attack on Harkonnen spice) and of Siona (who definitely had a wild illogical streak in her). We can even see later overt signs of the wild tendency in Odrade, who is anything but predictable and orderly in her activities. In the case of Navigators we can ascribe their invisibility to prescience to the mental chess game that allows them to predict prediction and to create an 'infinite regress' mirror effect in future events that prevents prescients predicting each other. This is like the mental chess game waged between Paul and Leto II over control of the visions in CoD. For non-prescients I think it's more about the wild streak and acting out of the bounds of strict logic and therefore predictability.

    As a bit of backup for my position on this, I would invoke the general themes of Dune and Arrakis, whereby anything predictable and too ordered is sensed by the 'worm', i.e. the beast beneath and is subject to attack. Where anything man-made or artificial is worn down by the storms on Arrakis and can't last very long, and the only thing that lasts is the eroding force of the desert, that chaotic maelstrom which always overrides structure in the end. Oracles, like Shai Hulud, can easily track down and control people who 'walk in patterns', and I believe they likewise cannot account for persons who 'move without rhythm', just as the Fremen do on Arrakis to avoid detection by worms.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Feb 2015 15:07

    georgiedenbro wrote:I, too, have wondered at exactly what Duncan's characteristics were as Hayt, and then later during GEoD and beyond. The passage about Edric's shielding of Hayt does seem insufficient to me to explain how Paul never saw him at all in the possible futures. The previous time this had happened was with Fenring, who was a potential KH and had the gift of staying hidden.

    That being said, it seems to be fairly established that no oracle of any level can see another oracle's activities, even though they can see the effects of the activities. Paul isn't on the same level at all as Guild Navigators, and it is outright stated that Navigators use a simple linear type of prescience whereas Paul used something orders of magnitude more complex and also of a different type that connected past and future. It's true that Paul couldn't see Leto II, but the fact that Leto II could see Paul may be because a) Paul gave up his visions, and b) Paul may have let him. We don't know what sorts of interactions oracles can have with each other who aren't direct opponents or are even allies.


    Another thing to consider is that Leto had Other Memory or Paul and his Visions:

    He heard the gentle chiding in her voice. Yes, he knew. The answer lay there
    in his awareness, obvious: Because that great known-unknown within moves me like
    a wave. He felt the cresting of his past as though he rode a surfboard. He had
    his father's time-spread memories of prescience superimposed upon everything
    else, yet he wanted all of those pasts. He wanted them. And they were so very
    dangerous. He knew that completely now with this new thing which he would have
    to tell Ghanima.

    ~CoD

    I don't think it's stated anywhere that Leto II could see Navigators, in any case, although he had such a command of his power that he could deduce all he ever needed to in terms of keeping the Empire under total control.


    "Do you think the Guild is right about this Siona'?" Luyseyal asked.
    "I do not have enough information. If they are right, she is something
    extraordinary."
    "As the Lord Leto's father was extraordinary?"
    "A Guild navigator could conceal himself from the oracular eye of the Lord
    Leto's father."
    "But not from the Lord Leto."

    ~GEoD

    By all rights it seems fair to say that Paul and Leto II had more or less precisely the same ability, except that Leto II was willing to think about future paths Paul wouldn't consider and therefore explored entire avenues of possibility that Paul's personality dismissed as unacceptable.


    The Golden Path demands it. And what is the Golden Path? you ask. It is the
    survival of humankind, nothing more nor less. We who have prescience, we who
    know the pitfalls in our human futures, this has always been our responsibility.
    Survival.
    How you feel about this-your petty woes and joys, even your agonies and
    raptures-seldom concerns us. My father had this power. I have it stronger. We
    can peer now and again through the veils of Time.

    ~GEoD
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby georgiedenbro » 04 Feb 2015 16:07

    Freakzilla wrote:
    I don't think it's stated anywhere that Leto II could see Navigators, in any case, although he had such a command of his power that he could deduce all he ever needed to in terms of keeping the Empire under total control.


    "Do you think the Guild is right about this Siona'?" Luyseyal asked.
    "I do not have enough information. If they are right, she is something
    extraordinary."
    "As the Lord Leto's father was extraordinary?"
    "A Guild navigator could conceal himself from the oracular eye of the Lord
    Leto's father."
    "But not from the Lord Leto."

    ~GEoD


    Ah, I had forgotten this passage, thanks. That said, can we trust the source, or might this be a bit of propaganda disseminated by Leto?

    By all rights it seems fair to say that Paul and Leto II had more or less precisely the same ability, except that Leto II was willing to think about future paths Paul wouldn't consider and therefore explored entire avenues of possibility that Paul's personality dismissed as unacceptable.


    The Golden Path demands it. And what is the Golden Path? you ask. It is the
    survival of humankind, nothing more nor less. We who have prescience, we who
    know the pitfalls in our human futures, this has always been our responsibility.
    Survival.
    How you feel about this-your petty woes and joys, even your agonies and
    raptures-seldom concerns us. My father had this power. I have it stronger. We
    can peer now and again through the veils of Time.

    ~GEoD


    I guess that's fair. He doesn't ever really say what he means by this, and it may just relate to the differences between their personalities, but maybe not. I never really saw anything he did as outside the bounds of what Paul could have done if he had wanted to, but I guess that's not really the point of the story. I'll keep fighting for Paul, dammit! :snooty:
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby JasonJD48 » 04 Feb 2015 19:42

    The way I imagine it is that while Paul was more powerful than the navigators, his powers still operate the same way, by navigating through various paths. His vision was limited by his current vantage point. Picture it like a first person shooter game, he's seeing the future like that. Does he choose Door A or B? he can see whats on the other side of the doors but he can't see doors that are not in the hallway he is in. If you think of how Paul operates when he's blinded, it makes perfect sense, the level of detail on the one path he is in and the choice to take forks from that path.

    Leto II literally operates from a different view, he's got an overhead view of the world map of the game, instead of the first person shooter perspective. He can assume that first person shooter perspective as needed, when he sees something on the world map that needs to be explored, but it's not his default view, which he only does as needed and seems to need to actively choose to do as opposed to the way Paul seemed to do it as second nature. If you are looking down at the world map, you are going to see the players on the map, but the players aren't going to see you.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby georgiedenbro » 05 Feb 2015 01:18

    JasonJD48 wrote:The way I imagine it is that while Paul was more powerful than the navigators, his powers still operate the same way, by navigating through various paths. His vision was limited by his current vantage point. Picture it like a first person shooter game, he's seeing the future like that. Does he choose Door A or B? he can see whats on the other side of the doors but he can't see doors that are not in the hallway he is in. If you think of how Paul operates when he's blinded, it makes perfect sense, the level of detail on the one path he is in and the choice to take forks from that path.

    Leto II literally operates from a different view, he's got an overhead view of the world map of the game, instead of the first person shooter perspective. He can assume that first person shooter perspective as needed, when he sees something on the world map that needs to be explored, but it's not his default view, which he only does as needed and seems to need to actively choose to do as opposed to the way Paul seemed to do it as second nature. If you are looking down at the world map, you are going to see the players on the map, but the players aren't going to see you.


    Dune: Appendix II wrote:Of himself, Muad'Dib said: "I am a net in the sea of time, free to sweep
    future and past. I am a moving membrane from whom no possibility can escape."


    There are various other passages that suggest Muad'dib was essentially the master of time and didn't even live in the present in any intelligible sense. In fact, that's sort of the theme of Messiah, that he saw time from above to such an extent that the word "present" wasn't even easy to define. The prescient trap is more or less defined as having seen everything already and realizing that the actual living of it is merely redundant.

    On the other hand, Alia (supposedly with Paul's agreement) tells Stilgar in Messiah that seeing the future involves not being able to see above certain crests. That point is never really explained, but I basically take that to mean they can't see beyond nexus points such as we saw in Dune in the fight between Paul and Jamis and later between Paul and Feyd. This is just a fancy way of saying that certain events are too chaotic to be entirely predictable and you just have to 'see how it goes', like a knife fight. But I don't take Alia's explanation to Stilgar to mean that they can't see certain events because they are avenues not open to them to think about. I think if Paul wanted to think about any avenue he could; he just chose not to in the case of exploring the possibilities of the Golden Path.

    I don't have that much time right now, but if you search you can find passages that explain how Paul's powers aren't the same as those of Navigators. Navigators can see the future to a limited and clearly-defined extent, such that there controlling and safe plans allow without endangering them. Paul both saw all future paths that he cared to, as well as bridging past and future and seeing all of time as one continuous fabric.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby JasonJD48 » 05 Feb 2015 02:33

    prediction is a natural consequence in the wave of the present. It wears the guise of nature, you see. But such powers cannot be used from an attitude that prestates aims and purposes. Does a chip caught in the wave say where it's going? There's no cause and effect in the oracle. Causes become occasions of convections and confluences, places where the currents meet.


    It seems to me he has to follow the stream, sure he's free to go forward and backward, but he has to follow the river. The quote you posted seems to be him building his own mystique, he clearly has limitations as he tries to explain to Stilgar above, before Alia shuts the conversation down.


    "Once your father confided in me that knowing the future too well was to be locked into that future to the exclusion of any freedom to change."


    Here again, we see Paul's vision seen as a path, once on, it can't be left.


    "Universal prescience is an empty myth. Only the most powerful local currents of Time may be foretold."


    Pre-Spice Trance Leto II speaking of Prescience. If his father experienced universal prescience, surely he'd have known.


    The vision which both of them knew had been set into terrible motion here had required an act of creation at a certain point in time. For that moment, the entire sentient universe shared a linear view of time which possessed characteristics of orderly progression. Against this, Leto held the multi-thread reins, balanced in his own vision-lighted view of time as multi-linear and multilooped


    "I will only ask this one thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
    "It's that or humans will be extinguished."
    Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among the choices."



    Muad'Dib gave us a particular kind of knowledge about prophetic insight, about the behavior which surrounds such insight and its influence upon events which are seen to be "on line." (That is events which are set to occur in a related system which the prophet reveals and interprets.)


    To me, Paul worked in the same manner as the Navigators, he just had a lot more power and so could see deeper. He also had a much greater willingness to use his powers in that way. It is Leto II that looks at time in a different manner and it is his powers that work differently.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Feb 2015 07:04

    The Guild navigators, gifted with limited prescience, had made the fatal
    decision: they'd chosen always the clear, safe course that leads ever downward
    into stagnation.

    ~Dune

    "What if she does wed? Will that shake our plans?"
    "It will shake the universe."
    "But they're not unique. I, myself, possess powers which --"
    "You're an infant. You toddle where they stride."

    ~DM
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby JasonJD48 » 05 Feb 2015 09:53

    Freakzilla wrote:The Guild navigators, gifted with limited prescience, had made the fatal
    decision: they'd chosen always the clear, safe course that leads ever downward
    into stagnation.

    ~Dune

    Paul's sight too was limited however, just not as limited


    "What if she does wed? Will that shake our plans?"
    "It will shake the universe."
    "But they're not unique. I, myself, possess powers which --"
    "You're an infant. You toddle where they stride."

    ~DM


    I haven't contended that the navigators were as powerful as Paul, not even close. Paul was much more powerful and could see a lot more deeply. In the first quote, its clear that the Navigators do choose from the various paths, not just in literal navigation, but they always chose the status quo. It's obvious that Paul was a combination of being a far more powerful Oracle, in conjunction with his Mentat abilities, BG training, OM and noble background, all of which allowed him to act in a way the Guild could not. My point is simply that Paul's prescience worked on the same plane as the navigators, not that there isn't a difference in their powers. Edric crawls, Paul strides, but both are meaningless to someone in an airplane.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Feb 2015 10:11

    Without melange to ignite the linear prescience of Guild Navigators, people
    cross the parsecs of space only at a snail's crawl.

    ~GEoD

    The vision absorbed him. It evolved into a stereologic memory which
    separated past and present, future and present, future and past. Each separation
    mingled into a trinocular focus which he sensed as the multidimensional relief
    map of his own future existence.

    ...

    But the father-presence within spoke warningly: "Don't invite disaster!
    You're learning stroboscopic awareness now. Without it you could overrun
    yourself, lose your place-mark in Time."

    ~CoD

    Leto's Vision doesn't at all sound linear like a Guild Navigator's is described. Also, if Paul's Other Memory persona is teaching Leto to use his prescience, they must have similar powers.

    The reason Paul's vision was limited to one path was because he relied upon it so heavily to make decisions. Each time he did he limited his future options until there's only one path left and this is what he's left with in Dune Messiah. Leto's task his to break out of that vision, through an act of creation (the metamorphosis).
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby georgiedenbro » 05 Feb 2015 11:21

    Thanks for the quotes, Freak, very helpful. I know there are several others, maybe I'll try to take the time later to find some more. In short the KH can't be the same thing as a good old prescient Navigator but just stronger, since there are different factors in play with the KH. There is the access to OM, which if you think about it a little would change absolutely everything. But it's not just 'prescience plus OM', because it's a "trinocular focus", in other words, seeing all tenses of time as being one and the same.

    Jason, the passage you quoted about 'local currents' pertains to the scope of the power in terms of physical space; it means that the KH must literally be able to have great influence in the events to come for his vision to encompass them. A KH wouldn't have visions of some far-off galaxy, for example, where he was never going to go and where he knew no one. While Paul had a very large 'area of effect' for his oracular sight, it wasn't nearly as big as that of Leto II, which is only to say that it would take an oracle of Leto II's power to control an Empire the size of his as he did.

    Also good point, Freak, about Paul's mistake being that he used it too much and relied on prescience to make basic decisions. Hayt in DM tells him this very thing, and Leto II repeats in CoD that he won't make the same mistake. This, no doubt, limited Paul's vision as well, since in a sense he used it selfishly as a scanning tool to make daily decisions, instead of as a large-scale barometer to see where humanity as a whole should go, like Leto II did.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby Frybread » 05 Feb 2015 13:09

    if it's true that the extent of an oracle's second sight is dictated by the scope of his influence (along with his genetic potential and spice exposure), then imagine what limited and insignificant visions the Tleilaxu KH had. If he was imprisoned, it would be nothing but seeing himself in his cell sleeping, eating and defecating every day. That was probably enough to motivate him to commit suicide.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby Frybread » 05 Feb 2015 13:42

    I agree that Paul's noble background prevented him from seeing to the extent of Leto II's vision. While Leto was a more powerful oracle, his Fremen background truly enabled him to explore the vision along the "Tyrant" path - its forced peace and consequent Famine Times, Scattering and Return.

    I seem to remember in CoD that Paul revealed he knew about the Golden Path but didn't explore it beyond the skin-that-is-not-my-own stage; therefore he never saw that that path would eventually lead to the salvation of humanity after the despotic "Tyrant" period and chaotic aftermath.

    It took a Femen KH, someone who could make the "brutal" decisions, to enact the Golden Path.
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    Re: A (possibly stupid) question about prescience shielding

    Postby JasonJD48 » 05 Feb 2015 15:53

    georgiedenbro wrote:Thanks for the quotes, Freak, very helpful. I know there are several others, maybe I'll try to take the time later to find some more. In short the KH can't be the same thing as a good old prescient Navigator but just stronger, since there are different factors in play with the KH. There is the access to OM, which if you think about it a little would change absolutely everything. But it's not just 'prescience plus OM', because it's a "trinocular focus", in other words, seeing all tenses of time as being one and the same.


    I think that may be the crux of the difference of opinion that we have. I don't lump OM in with Prescience, does it make a huge difference in Paul's capabilities and his ability to understand what he sees with his prescience? Absolutely. But the question of the thread is about prescient shielding, so my point is entirely about the individual ability of prescience, not a navigator/Paul/Leto dick measuring contest. Paul is much more important than any Guild navigator in shaping humanity because of the confluence of abilities he possesses, but that's not really the point of the thread.


    Jason, the passage you quoted about 'local currents' pertains to the scope of the power in terms of physical space; it means that the KH must literally be able to have great influence in the events to come for his vision to encompass them. A KH wouldn't have visions of some far-off galaxy, for example, where he was never going to go and where he knew no one. While Paul had a very large 'area of effect' for his oracular sight, it wasn't nearly as big as that of Leto II, which is only to say that it would take an oracle of Leto II's power to control an Empire the size of his as he did.


    That was my point... and that's what makes him similar to the Navigators. But I think where we disagree is you assume Leto was just more powerful, I don't see it as a raw power difference, I think its a difference of perspective, which is why he can see the navigators and he can see Paul, but Paul, despite his own massive power difference over the Navigators, still can't see them.


    Also good point, Freak, about Paul's mistake being that he used it too much and relied on prescience to make basic decisions. Hayt in DM tells him this very thing, and Leto II repeats in CoD that he won't make the same mistake. This, no doubt, limited Paul's vision as well, since in a sense he used it selfishly as a scanning tool to make daily decisions, instead of as a large-scale barometer to see where humanity as a whole should go, like Leto II did.


    I posit though that he couldn't really see the world view like Leto could no matter if he really tried. Likewise Leto almost seems bothered in GE to use his abilities the way Paul did, which I think is because for him his natural view is at a different perspective than the 'individual timelines'.

    Picture this as a thought experiment. Paul's prescience is like driving on a highway, he knew of every exit and weigh station before he got to them, he knew where each exit leads as well. Leto is in a helicopter, far far above the city, he can see every highway and road in the city, not just the ones that branch off of the one Paul is on. Leto can take the helicopter down and follow the road really closely, but that's not the natural or sound way to fly the helicopter, so he would only do that if he needed the level of detail that provided and had no alternative. Paul has a much easier time driving on the road, but he's also ultimately limited in view. Hence Paul's comment about Leto's breadth of vision, its an interesting word choice, Leto doesn't see clearer or deeper, he sees broader.
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