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    Turning points

    Postby Nebiros » 05 Aug 2010 04:24

    While reading God Emperor, I now understand Frank Herbert's style of writing the Dune story.

    The reason the novels (with the exception of Heretics and Chapterhouse) have long gaps of time passing between them is he did not wish to describe the events within the story but rather the characters decisions that led to one situation and that will determine the next and also the process of them making those critical decisions. The books also describe the preparations for a critical turning point in history.

    In Dune we see how Paul's mind processes the decision to lead a jihad. He can see things that must be done to prevent worse things from happening and things that are inevitable. In Dune Messiah, we see Paul preparing to pass the responsibility of what he has done to Alia and his Children Leto and Ghanima before he leaves to the desert. Also it describes reflections on how the story got to this point. In Children of Dune we see Leto take the responsibility that his father could not and the process of his decision making to take Humanity on the Golden Path. In God Emperor we read about Leto's final preparations that will lead to his death, the end on the Imperium and the Scattering. And finally in Heretics and Chapterhouse jointly we see how the Bene Gesserit make difficult decisions for the goal of their mere survival (as humanity's survival as a whole has already been secured).

    Frank's characters have super human mental and also physical abilities so they have the tools to make these critical decisions that will lead to turning points in history. What Brian and Kevin fail to understand is the action sequences and the time between novels weather they are written or not does not matter. Frank wanted to emphasize this: If you were in a position to make history for better or worse, what would you do? And more importantly would you go for it?

    I will also add that as Frank wrote the novels, he created a universe so vast that no matter how well he describes it, people want to explore it in even greater detail. Which leads to the Dune films, the encyclopedia and the computer games.
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby Nekhrun » 05 Aug 2010 05:15

    That's really insightful. I'd be interested to read more about how you interpret the Characters' beliefs about Leto in Heretics & Chapterhouse.
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby MrFlibble » 05 Aug 2010 09:21

    Nebiros wrote:What Brian and Kevin fail to understand is the action sequences and the time between novels weather they are written or not does not matter.

    Oh, I don't think it is appropriate to say of them that they "fail to understand" this. They have a very different objective from what Frank had, and to them, filling the perceived "gaps" in the story seemed a perfect strategy for moar! book writing (however, the recent "success" of the Heroes un-series might prove them wrong).
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Aug 2010 10:22

    :clap:
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby SandChigger » 05 Aug 2010 10:42

    :shock:

    I've obviously fallen into the commode, accidently pulled the flush lever in my struggles to extricate myself, and been transported into an alternate shitverse. :?
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 05 Aug 2010 12:03

    Nebiros wrote:
    The reason the novels (with the exception of Heretics and Chapterhouse) have long gaps of time passing between them is he did not wish to describe the events within the story but rather the characters decisions that led to one situation and that will determine the next and also the process of them making those critical decisions. The books also describe the preparations for a critical turning point in history.

    What Brian and Kevin fail to understand is the action sequences and the time between novels weather they are written or not does not matter. Frank wanted to emphasize this: If you were in a position to make history for better or worse, what would you do? And more importantly would you go for it?


    Gooooooooood post. :clap:
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby Robspierre » 05 Aug 2010 17:10

    Holy Mary Mother of God! :scared-yipes:


    Good post!

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    Re: Turning points

    Postby SandChigger » 05 Aug 2010 19:27

    :o

    In Charlie Jade terms, I seem to be stuck in the brownish coproverse... :?

    (Would actually be the kappaverse, but at this point, who gives a flush?)
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby merkin muffley » 05 Aug 2010 21:52

    The reason the post is meaningful to me is I was having Gettysburg Pennsylvania as the place of my birth that had a critical turning point in history. How would Frank describe that turning point in history if Paul was General Lee? Would he have made Pickett's Charge better or worse and more importantly would he go for it?
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby Nekhrun » 05 Aug 2010 22:16

    Wow, that's fascinating. I'd like to see Nebrios' take on this as well in relation to what was written above.
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby SandChigger » 05 Aug 2010 22:33

    :doh:

    I'd like to see a giant plunger or suction nozzle descending from the sky to WHOOSH! suck me away from here and back into my own verse!

    :pray:
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Aug 2010 00:41

    Nekhrun wrote:Wow, that's fascinating. I'd like to see Nebrios' take on this as well in relation to what was written above.


    Hmmm, your accent sounds like you don't keep your tongue in the middle of your mouth. :wink:
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby Nebiros » 06 Aug 2010 00:43

    Hmmm... Finally write something Dune related and get mostly just static? Oh well. :|

    Nekhrun: In Heretics and Chapterhouse, the Bene Gesserit still do not understand why Leto II did what he did. They still fail to understand his Golden Path. They view him as a really bad mistake they made and vow never to repeat again: breeding a Kwisatz Haderach. They resent the fact that Leto II took their breeding program (although in the end they got it back or started a new one). The God Emperor telling everyone who has sex with who is actually worse than the Bene Gesserit doing it.They also resent even more the fact that Leto II triggered the Scattering because they can never again control ALL of humanity.

    I had a hard time reading Chapterhouse because it's focus was mainly on the Bene Gesserit. Their only goal in the book was their own survival and I was not really rooting for them because humanity does not NEED them anymore. And despite all the havoc the Honoured Matres can reap, they cannot reach ALL humans in the Universe because Leto II ensured this with the Scattering and the Siona DNA which makes them invisible to prescience. The Bene Gesserit still do not grasp the purpose of the Golden path and are struggling to survive in a universe in which they have become irrelevant. Pathetic really.
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Aug 2010 00:51

    Nebiros wrote:Hmmm... Finally write something Dune related and get mostly just static? Oh well. :|



    Not really... I think you saw sarcasm where there wasn't. Maybe one or two people were being asses, but that was actually a good post. Maybe most of us kinda over-reacted because you basically never post anything meaningfull and then pull this kind of stuff out, surprised us a bit.
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby SandRider » 06 Aug 2010 02:02

    Hmmm... Finally write something Dune related and get mostly just static? Oh well. :|



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    Re: Turning points

    Postby SandChigger » 06 Aug 2010 02:05

    Yeah, Toto, we're DEFINITELY not in Kansass anymore... :?
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby Nekhrun » 06 Aug 2010 09:49

    Nebiros wrote:While reading God Emperor, I now understand Frank Herbert's style of writing the Dune story.

    Not if what you say about Heretics and Chapterhouse is true. You're just as far from understanding as you always were.

    Nebiros wrote:Nekhrun: In Heretics and Chapterhouse, the Bene Gesserit still do not understand why Leto II did what he did. They still fail to understand his Golden Path. They view him as a really bad mistake they made and vow never to repeat again: breeding a Kwisatz Haderach. They resent the fact that Leto II took their breeding program (although in the end they got it back or started a new one). The God Emperor telling everyone who has sex with who is actually worse than the Bene Gesserit doing it.They also resent even more the fact that Leto II triggered the Scattering because they can never again control ALL of humanity.

    Leto did not tell people with whom to have sex. He explicitly states that he does not. He leaves the choice up to them. He may create situations where some of them are thrown into situations together where they will mate, but it is always their choice. It's no different than the subtle manipulation most people use when they want to get laid.

    Nebiros wrote:I had a hard time reading Chapterhouse because it's focus was mainly on the Bene Gesserit.

    Until I read this I completely forgot that you had that whole sexual repression thing going and have such resentments built up against the Bene Gesserit.

    What is it about strong female characters that make you so uncomfortable?

    Nebiros wrote:Their only goal in the book was their own survival

    No, it was not. Your hard time understanding this book is evident.

    Nebiros wrote:Pathetic really.

    Agreed.

    Why do you continue to force your out-dated moral code on the rest of humanity real and fictional?

    Your over-zealous attitude and misplaced sexual aggression would be destructive if you had any type of influence over humanity. Instead it's just frustrating and sad. I grieve for your wife and daughter.
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby Robspierre » 06 Aug 2010 10:11

    Until I read this I completely forgot that you had that whole sexual repression thing going and have such resentments built up against the Bene Gesserit.

    What is it about strong female characters that make you so uncomfortable?


    He probably cums to soon and has never given his wife an orgasm. Or he likes to take it up the bum with a strap on.

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    Re: Turning points

    Postby Nekhrun » 06 Aug 2010 10:23

    Robspierre wrote:
    Until I read this I completely forgot that you had that whole sexual repression thing going and have such resentments built up against the Bene Gesserit.

    What is it about strong female characters that make you so uncomfortable?


    He probably cums to soon and has never given his wife an orgasm.

    I'm guessing that he would probably say that women should not derive pleasure from sex anyway, so it doesn't really matter.
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby SandChigger » 06 Aug 2010 10:29

    :shock:

    Well, Rob... that was unexpectedly frank. :lol: But to be honest, I seriously doubt they have sex anymore, since HE decided they were not going to have any more children right after their daughter was born and he probably thinks oral sex and contraception are sins and, besides, sex is only for reproduction. He doesn't masturbate or feels so guilty about it that he does it only infrequently.

    It's no damned wonder he's frustrated and popping off about shit he doesn't understand. (And you're probably right, Nekhrun. Unfortunately.)

    Nekhrun wrote:What is it about strong female characters that make you so uncomfortable?

    It all goes back to Mommy, no doubt.
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby lotek » 06 Aug 2010 10:40

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    Re: Turning points

    Postby Nekhrun » 06 Aug 2010 11:51

    I think I just had an orgasm.




    Edit: Yep, I did.
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby Nekhrun » 06 Aug 2010 11:55

    SandChigger wrote:
    Nekhrun wrote:What is it about strong female characters that make you so uncomfortable?

    It all goes back to Mommy, no doubt.

    You mean because his mother is the vice mayor of the city in which he lives? :wink:
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Aug 2010 12:00

    Nekhrun wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:
    Nekhrun wrote:What is it about strong female characters that make you so uncomfortable?

    It all goes back to Mommy, no doubt.

    You mean because his mother is the vice mayor of the city in which he lives? :wink:


    'Cause she has a nice rack?
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    Re: Turning points

    Postby merkin muffley » 06 Aug 2010 12:18

    Nekhrun wrote:I think I just had an orgasm.




    Edit: Yep, I did.



    That is just degenerate and devolved. Are you some kind of Neanderthal? And if so, are you from the White Mountains? I'm looking to buy some crystals.

    Well, this wasn't not fun. I've got to go spend some time with devolved people in the mountains of West Virginia. I hate to miss the rest of this, but I look forward to catching up when I get back.
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