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    A macro-view of the GP

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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby SandRider » 07 Apr 2011 19:08

    Bill, I almost understood what you were getting at in your revival post of this thread;
    (that Leto had intended the Honored Matres to emerge from the Scattering and return
    to merge with the Bene Gesserit, if that is indeed what you meant) and that is almost
    good-thinking, except for excluding Leto's statements that he didn't look past the
    Scattering, as was pointed out ... no point, no foul there, tho; this is what we do -
    express opinions that have been bouncing around in our minds about these books,
    no matter how long ago it was we read them (I haven't read GEoD straight-thru in
    maybe ten or fifteen years - I'm old as fuck too, can't remember where the hell I
    was last weekend, so if I spout off something I either think I remember or some
    idea I've formed just from the natural processing of information the brain does when
    I ain't looking, and these folks correct it, there's no shame or whatever ...)(no harm,
    no foul
    is the phrase I guess I was looking for up there, but I meant that you
    shot and hit the net, but that's cool)(bassaball analogy there, Sloey-II, hmmm ?)

    y'all correct me on this one too, if'n I got the terms mixed up in my head, but I think
    our general consensus is that Kralizec is the Scattering itself ...


    also: good example of thread-revival by new recruits - this is what we are talking about,
    this ended up being a very large thread with a ton of great ideas and discussions, and the
    off-topic veerings that are par for this course; revival of {important} threads keeps
    the good-stuff together and allows us all to revisit and rethink the major points of Frank's
    work, and is a quick(er) up-to-speed tool for the young ones ...

    and as a group, we seem to circle around different issues from time to time, as interest
    grows and wanes ... my (actual Dune-related) stuff is like that ... the Basement Archives
    @T(A)U grab and lose my attention from time to time (BTW, somebody please start
    gathering up links to ALL the videos of Frank, and any audio links ... that stuff certainly
    needs to be embedded there, but the last time I seriously did any work down there, I
    was still YouTube-deprived)

    Frank's actual intention for Dune7 is one of those topics ... I got real fucking impressed
    with some of the talent here after the Dune Fan-Fiction contest, and seriously tried to dissect
    the ideas in the only two known, serious attempts at it (tried and failed, I need to print all that
    out - I'm still a poor monitor-reader of fiction) and bandied about the "OH Dune Conclusion",
    which sparked alot of interest that kinda petered out after some of the huge obstacles were
    closely examined .... and that doesn't mean the idea is dead at all ... it's just sleeping ...

    (along with the "OH Manifesto" .....)
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby houseofwilliams » 07 Apr 2011 23:47

    In answer to the threat posed to the HM, I don't necessarily think the threat to them was something that threatened all of humanity I just interpreted Paul and Leto II's concern about humanity, the "terrible purpose" and "noble purpose" as being the result of both seeing an extinction event at some point in the future. I can't see how it would be any other way, there had to be a serious threat to motivate Paul to terrible purpose and Leto to his sacrifice. And if what the HM are running from is not related to the GP or the KH's vision, then the story isn't exactly get wrapped up in a hypothetical Dune 7, it would be pretty much ongoing. would think that in Dune 7, Herbert would want to wrap things up by showing how the threat to the HM's and the old empire was one and the same, the one originally predicted by Paul and that Leto sought to prepare them for.

    Speaking of which, where are the Dune 7 threads here? I got theories but I would like to put them in their proper place.
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Apr 2011 02:06

    houseofwilliams wrote:In answer to the threat posed to the HM, I don't necessarily think the threat to them was something that threatened all of humanity I just interpreted Paul and Leto II's concern about humanity, the "terrible purpose" and "noble purpose" as being the result of both seeing an extinction event at some point in the future. I can't see how it would be any other way, there had to be a serious threat to motivate Paul to terrible purpose and Leto to his sacrifice. And if what the HM are running from is not related to the GP or the KH's vision, then the story isn't exactly get wrapped up in a hypothetical Dune 7, it would be pretty much ongoing. would think that in Dune 7, Herbert would want to wrap things up by showing how the threat to the HM's and the old empire was one and the same, the one originally predicted by Paul and that Leto sought to prepare them for.

    Speaking of which, where are the Dune 7 threads here? I got theories but I would like to put them in their proper place.


    You're totally right about all of that - the story doesn't get wrapped up in Dune 7 - it was actually finished after GEoD! Then, the last 3 books were supposed to be just a story about the fall of the "old empire", because there can no longer be any stories about a grand threat to all of humanity.


    I believe what Paul saw was extinction in the fairly near future, and he prevented it with his Jihad (too tired to think how that worked right now). He didn't look far enough though, he failed to see what Leto II saw - I think Leto saw an extinction, prevented it, saw another one, prevented it, etc (in GEoD he shows Siona a vision of what would have happened to cause the end of humanity if he hadn't been in power) - but the whole Golden Path wasn't directed at any one particular threat.

    If he was worried about any threat in particular he would have had to be around forever - because after that threat was resolved, there would be another and another and another. So what he did was set up a scattering of humanity so total that no threat could ever threaten them all again.
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Apr 2011 02:11

    Anyways, so yes - while it would make a decent story to have that final threat in Dune 7 be the same one Paul and Leto II saw, it just doesn't quite work. Paul's was in the very near future if I remember correctly, within a couple hundred, or maybe couple thousand years. This business with the HM's enemy is much later. Also, Leto II specifically tells Paul that Paul failed to look far enough (or some such) and so whatever Leto II was trying to prevent was not the same as what Paul was.

    Leto II saw everyone die as a result of Hunter-Seeker armies (self replicating), and prevented it. But that's not the Golden Path - the GP is all about covering all bases, not worrying about one specific threat.

    I do get where you came from with that idea though, but Leto's work was finished after the Scattering.

    It might interest you to know too that FH didn't originally intend to write more than the first 3 books, GEoD and everything afterwards he wrote because they kept offering him money, big money, so he wrote more (and unlike most goofs who do something for the money, he continued to do an excellent job!). So it was never his intention to wrap up the original threat - he hadn't even planned to tell anyone what that threat was, or even tell them what the Golden Path was! (FH was funny that way).
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby Serkanner » 08 Apr 2011 03:02

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:So it was never his intention to wrap up the original threat - he hadn't even planned to tell anyone what that threat was, or even tell them what the Golden Path was! (FH was funny that way).


    I also think this is exactly the way Frank worked. He used the "abstract" form of threat without the need to explain it. This way it is much easier to actually "fill-in" the threat as the need arises when he worked on a new novel. With the Scattering in place he created an endless pool of possibilities outside his first creation: the old empire ...
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 08 Apr 2011 09:27

    Paul didn't see the extinction of mankind, that's why he didn't choose the GP.

    After a long silence, Paul said: "The end adjusts the path behind it. Just
    once I failed to fight for my principles. Just once. I accepted the Mahdinate. I
    did it for Chani, but it made me a bad leader."
    Leto found he couldn't answer this. The memory of that decision was there
    within him.
    "I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
    know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
    thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
    "It's that or humans will be extinguished."
    Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
    acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
    the choices."
    "I believe the Sisterhood suspects it," Leto said. "I cannot accept any
    other explanation of my grandmother's decision."

    ~CoD

    Paul's terrible purpose was his jihad which was to be a "wild mingling of genes" according to RM Mohiam. I think of this as a temprorary/partial fix, humanity's "race consciousness" had sensed its own mortlity.
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby SadisticCynic » 08 Apr 2011 10:51

    Related to that, Frank once noted that the population keeps increasing even just after a war when so many have been killed, as if humans subconsciously try to compensate by having more children.
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Apr 2011 13:26

    Freakzilla wrote:Paul didn't see the extinction of mankind, that's why he didn't choose the GP.

    After a long silence, Paul said: "The end adjusts the path behind it. Just
    once I failed to fight for my principles. Just once. I accepted the Mahdinate. I
    did it for Chani, but it made me a bad leader."
    Leto found he couldn't answer this. The memory of that decision was there
    within him.
    "I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
    know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
    thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
    "It's that or humans will be extinguished."
    Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
    acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
    the choices."
    "I believe the Sisterhood suspects it," Leto said. "I cannot accept any
    other explanation of my grandmother's decision."

    ~CoD

    Paul's terrible purpose was his jihad which was to be a "wild mingling of genes" according to RM Mohiam. I think of this as a temprorary/partial fix, humanity's "race consciousness" had sensed its own mortlity.


    I don't have my PDFs on me, but I'm pretty sure that wild mingling of genes was indeed intended to stop humanity's extinction.

    I know he didn't see what Leto II saw, and that why he didn't go the GP route, but I'm almost 100% sure that in Dune Paul sees that if he doesn't unleash the Jihad every human being will be dead within the relatively near future. I'm really pretty sure about that.
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby SandRider » 08 Apr 2011 13:30

    Orthodox Herbertarian Dune Conclusion:

    viewforum.php?f=36
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby SandChigger » 08 Apr 2011 13:39

    Yeah, the Fremen Jihad was a temporary fix for the problem of stagnation. The socioeconomic structure of the Imperium as it had evolved by Paul's time was slowly strangling humanity to death. But even after the problem of stagnation was solved, there was still the inherent danger of humanity "having all its eggs in one nest", i.e., the limited space of the Imperium with transportation provided only by the Guild.

    Anyway, Leto wasn't preparing humanity to face a threat, he was preparing them to face survival. Once he was certain things would fall into place to ensure that the Golden Path would be established after his death, his job was finished.

    Survival of the human species was his goal. That only means that a viable breeding population survives somewhere. It does not guarantee the survival of all, or even most, populations everywhere. And it certainly does not guarantee the survival of any particular individual: "Leto steeled himself then. I must have no pity. If she dies, she dies. If any of them dies, that is a required event, no more. / And he had to remind himself that this applied even to Hwi Noree. It was just that all of them could not die."

    Leto wanted to wean humanity from a dependence on the spice (and on any one thing, like the Guild for transportation, or a leader for guidance), but he wanted the Bene Gesserit to survive (maybe so they could redeem themselves, by serving humanity as its memory or conscience?), hence the importance of ensuring that his sandtrout (the last in existence!) survive to create new worms and new spice. (And thus the hiding of the spice hoard in the ruins of Sietch Tabr with clues that only someone trained as a Reverend Mother and with a Reverend Mother's memories would recognize. He didn't see a Reverend Mother finding it—he couldn't see Odrade because of the Siona Gene—but he knew only a BG could find it.)

    Even the Siona Gene was only a temporary expedient and had begun to break down by the time Teg arrived with his new form of prescience. But by that time humanity was so far spread out that no natural or human-born or human-engineered calamity could endanger all of the species: nothing could ever overcome the sheer size of human space.

    That at least is the understanding I have come to over these past few years. :)
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 08 Apr 2011 13:56

    :text-yeahthat:

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I know he didn't see what Leto II saw, and that why he didn't go the GP route, but I'm almost 100% sure that in Dune Paul sees that if he doesn't unleash the Jihad every human being will be dead within the relatively near future. I'm really pretty sure about that.


    He never saw a way to stop it once he joined the Fremen, it was inevitable even if he'd died.
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby houseofwilliams » 08 Apr 2011 17:53

    So remind me, what exactly did Leto II prevent happening to humanity through his rule? What was the extinction threat that he essentially prevented by becoming the God Emperor and with the Scattering and so forth? I certainly think I was off in seeing how Paul and Leto's purpose was the same, its been awhile since I read the books and the details kind of merged for me. I can totally see how Leto's influence led humanity to be better positioned and bred to deal with future threats, but what threat did he himself neutralize? And I got to say that this ongoing, never meant to be so, story that Herbert found himself in goes a long way to explaining how and why Brian and KJA have been making such a mess of things. If he in fact had no solid conclusion in mind, then they could have done whatever they wanted with the ending, which is clearly what they did! I could just never fathom how they had the balls to do such a thing, but it makes perfect sense to know that Herbert had no real intentions of wrapping it all up, just one more novel that would possibly tie up the loose ends left in Chapterhouse.

    That being said, I think Dune 7 could have provided an opportunity to wrap up the whole thing and provide some answers/synthesis to the whole GP, Scattering, Leto's vision, etc. And here was what I was thinking as possible ideas:

    1. A few times, the fact the worms were not indigenous to Arrakis is mentioned.
    2. Humanity held onto its nukes in part out of fear of encountering an "intelligence" outside of humanity
    3. the spice is so central to the entire series and its origins left a mystery, perhaps answering where it came from would go a long way

    Though it may seem cliche, what if the threat to humanity was a "intelligence" that came from another universe and brought the spice to our own? What if at some point, they were seen to return to our universe looking to rebuild or whatever, and encountered humanity. As Leto II saw it, the old Empire was too dependent on spice to survive without it, too constrained to its current environment, too dependent on the Guild, etc. ad nausiem! So, his plan was to break human dependence on single-source spice, break the Guild's hold on commerce, distribute humanity throughout a new multiverse, and ensure that they were bred with survival in their genes. A combined HM/BG force would be the catalyst for dealing with this threat. It was not what necessarily drove the HM back into the old empire, that (I agree with whoever said it) should be evolved Facedancers who drove them out. However, once they were discovered, they too could be enlisted to help fight this "intelligence".

    What do you think? Total cliche? All I'm going for is something better than the robot threat!
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Apr 2011 18:19

    Leto II prevented an extinction at the hands of hunter-seekers that were self replicating (Can't remember if it's was Ix's fault or what), and that's the only specific example he gives I beleive - but that has nothing to do with the Scattering, he prevented that himself during his reign.

    What I think has you confused here is that you're looking for 1 particular threat. Leto II would have simply seen that no matter what he did, unless humanity was scattered beyond ever being able to find eachother again, there would always be something that could end them.

    Not any one thing in particular, he wasn't worried about specifics, he wanted people scattered so that nothing could take them out.

    --

    Heres an example: I take over Earth. I'm not precient, but I know damned well that something will eventually take us out. We'll nuke ourselves, pollute ourselves to death, disease will kill us, a comet will strike us, or if we last really really long, our sun will eventually blow up.

    So, I decide to start humanity on a golden path. I get people off the planet, settling as many places as possible. On top of this, I also do something (can't think of anything right now) that will make them want to keep going, and going and going.

    Someone reading the story of this plan of mine might hink "wow, there must have been some serious threat that AToE guy saw, I wonder what it was..." but the reality is that I wasn't preparing for something, I was preparing for anything.


    This is what Leto II's Golden Path was - it has nothing to do with any specific threat. He just had the ability to think truely long-term because he could see further into the past and future than most people. He didn't need to see a specific threat, it's obvious that there will be a million specific threats to humanity over eternity, and eventually one of them will kill everyone. UNLESS he splits them all up so that nothing can ever kill them all.
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Apr 2011 18:24

    And I know that's not as good an Epic Ending as a lot of readers want, but FH was really concerned with making people face the realities of things.

    Whatever was going to happen in Dune 7, you can pretty much gaurantee that it has nothing to do with the Golden Path, because Leto specifically said he never looked that far ahead for specifics, plus it's impossible for anything to actually threaten humanity at the point in time of the last 2 books.


    I will tell you that yes, your idea is better than the killer robots KJA came up with though! But I do totally think FH was going for a less-Epic, more subtle and personal ending.
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    (Off-topic: Um... no)

    Postby SandChigger » 08 Apr 2011 20:05

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:if we last really really long, our sun will eventually blow up.

    Um... no it won't. :hand:

    Not unless it has help. Or our current understanding of stellar evolution and behavior is significantly off. :snooty:

    (It's not big enough to go nova. It will swell up and engulf much of the inner solar system, maybe even the Earth, in about five billion years. Stock up on marshmallows and wienies. ;) )
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby SandChigger » 08 Apr 2011 20:17

    houseofwilliams wrote:So remind me, what exactly did Leto II prevent happening to humanity through his rule?

    AToE has pretty much answered this. It wasn't one specific extinction event (although Leto does tell Siona [and us] about one, with the malfunctioning Ixian super-hunter-seekers), it was extinction itself.

    And I got to say that this ongoing, never meant to be so, story that Herbert found himself in goes a long way to explaining how and why Brian and KJA have been making such a mess of things. If he in fact had no solid conclusion in mind, then they could have done whatever they wanted with the ending, which is clearly what they did! I could just never fathom how they had the balls to do such a thing, but it makes perfect sense to know that Herbert had no real intentions of wrapping it all up, just one more novel that would possibly tie up the loose ends left in Chapterhouse.

    I guess this is one way of looking at it, but our objection to what they did do is that it isn't Dune.

    And you realize just how damning an accusation that really is when you consider how broad a thing Dune became in the hands of its creator.

    That being said, I think Dune 7 could have provided an opportunity to wrap up the whole thing and provide some answers/synthesis to the whole GP, Scattering, Leto's vision, etc.

    But the point is, there could be no "wrapping up" of the whole thing. Chapterhouse wasn't a cliffhanger, really. It was just open-ended.

    How's this for an idea: "Dune 7" wouldn't have mentioned Duncan and Sheeana and the no-ship even once. Except maybe in passing, like Murbella cursing Duncan and the rest for flying off and leaving her behind. ;)
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 08 Apr 2011 21:49

    Leto's metamorphosis prevented human extinction during his lifetime and weened humanity from spice, The GP prevented any one threat from endangering all of humanity in the future. By enforcing tranquility and denying space travel for thousands of years he gave humanity an even stronger desire to spread in the Scattering. The Siona Gene and Ixian Navigation Machine hid its owners from prescient searchers. No matter how powerful your prescience, the universe is still bigger.

    The alien threat is a good story except that Dune was about the human condition and humanity and I don't think he would have brought aliens into it.
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Apr 2011 13:00

    I don't either, it's not FH's style to make a huge long story that has always been about humanity being a threat to itself, and then to end it with an outside threat. Kinda clashes with the overall theme a bit.
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    Re: (Off-topic: Um... no)

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 09 Apr 2011 13:02

    SandChigger wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:if we last really really long, our sun will eventually blow up.

    Um... no it won't. :hand:

    Not unless it has help. Or our current understanding of stellar evolution and behavior is significantly off. :snooty:

    (It's not big enough to go nova. It will swell up and engulf much of the inner solar system, maybe even the Earth, in about five billion years. Stock up on marshmallows and wienies. ;) )


    I was trying to be dramatic damn you!!! :lol: Explosions are better than boring red giants!
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 09 Apr 2011 19:06

    Our sun will however expand into a red giant and engulf the Earth.
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby SandChigger » 09 Apr 2011 19:37

    I think I read that recently somewhere, too. :think:


    :P ;)
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby Ayat » 10 Apr 2011 02:27

    The problem had a name: "accidental discovery."

    It was an eternal flaw. Out there in the Scattering, humankind expanded exponentially, swarming across unlimited space. The Tyrant's Golden Path secure at last. Or was it? Surely, the Atreides worm had planned more than the simple survival of the species.
    He did something to us that we have not yet unearthed -- even after all of these millennia. I think I know what he did. My opposition says otherwise. ~ Taraza HoD


    I think the GP was/is more than simple survival, and as the quote also says, something more.

    The biggest threat to humanity has always been, throughout the books, a Kwisatz Haderach. The Siona gene and the new no-technology was a protection from this. But how complete would such a protection be, a KH can still see where a person has been/is/will be though they cannot tell who they are. We have the example of Leto II seeing Siona’s footprints but not Siona.

    Considering that Leto II was in control of the Atreides bloodline for 3500 years, the bloodline containing the KH genes, it would make sense for Leto to breed out the KH ability from the bloodline. This would remove the threat of the KH from humanity (aside from the genes of Paul and Leto the BT have).


    Siona and her desendants all become almost KH explaining why they are shielded from prescience.

    Paul, aware of some of this from the way the time nexus boiled, understood at last why he had never seen Fenring along the webs of prescience. Fenring was one of the might-have-beens, an almost Kwisatz Haderach, crippled by a flaw in the genetic pattern -- a eunuch, his talent concentrated into furtiveness and inner seclusion. A deep compassion for the Count flowed through Paul, the first sense of brotherhood he'd ever experienced. ~ Dune
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby SandChigger » 10 Apr 2011 03:30

    That's Taraza's supposition and PoV. The BG were afraid of their shadows when it came to the possibility of creating another KH.

    Prescients block prescients. Siona and her descendants need not have been "almost KHs" to block prescient vision.

    (And the effectiveness of the the Siona Gene was questionable after Teg came along.)
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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby SandRider » 10 Apr 2011 04:40

    I'm not so sure and I almost like the idea ...

    for this reason :

    holy fuck, what if this is an indication of the existence of actual Dune7 Notes ?

    that Frank did in fact scribble down somewhere: "Duncan becomes the Ultimate Kwisatz Haderach"
    (and FUCK, what if Frank actually used that word ??)

    except that, as Ayat has said, an "Ultimate Kwisatz Haderach" is exactly
    the threat Leto was attempting to prevent, what he saw as the most dangerous thing possible,
    but Frank did spell that out in the Notes, because he wouldn't've had to, it would be obvious,
    except that Keith is a fucking moron and still hasn't understood the undoing of Paul's Heroic
    Character in Messiah and cannot comprehend the idea of ultracool awesome shit being inherently
    evil and dangerous, and Brian has never understood any of Frank's books, anyway, and just
    mouthed the words and wrote down the page numbers where words like "sietch" and "worm"
    appeared for the "concordance" ????

    and being as stupid as I believe him to be, he takes this "note" and gives it to Keith,
    like the fucking sergeant who took Genrl Lee's Special Order 191 to his Lieutenant ...
    I doan know whut it means, but it lookd import'unt ... and Keith sees "Duncan becomes
    the Ultimate Kwisatz Haderach"
    and hell, that's all he needs to know, shit, this is science
    fiction production, not rocket science theory ...

    and if there were ever notes about Marty & Daniel keeping tabs on Duncan because they knew
    this potential, and Dune7 was their fight and triumph over him, Brian could have wiped the shit
    off the land rover's seat with it when he pulled into the garage, blind drunk and realizing he must've
    "had an accident" sometime at the bar ...



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    Re: A macro-view of the GP

    Postby Ayat » 12 Apr 2011 00:19

    That's Taraza's supposition and PoV. The BG were afraid of their shadows when it came to the possibility of creating another KH.


    Nearly everyone was afraid of the possibility of another KH not just the BG. Because it was from Taraza's PoV doesn't make it any less relevant. Taraza seems to be one of those that does not fear the shadow of the KH, consider her use of Odrade and her wild talent, plus her oppositions main concern is another KH.
    Considering that the He did something to us that we have not yet unearthed..... I think I know what he did. My opposition says otherwise is referring to breeding out the KH ability (within the theory I purpose). So Taraza knows/thinks that Leto breed out the KH ability, unlike here opposition that still fear creating a KH.

    Prescients block prescients. Siona and her descendants need not have been "almost KHs" to block prescient vision.

    (And the effectiveness of the the Siona Gene was questionable after Teg came along.)


    Of course they don't have to be 'almost KHs' to be absent from prescient vision.

    The problem I have with the theory of the Siona gene representing latent prescience it that if everybody is a latent prescient how come no one actually is prescient.
    (Then of course there is Teg, an anomaly, seeing no-ships, and those 'protected' by the Siona gene)


    I do think there were/are notes though as you say sandrider probably vague and beyond the ability of those two to comprehend.
    Though Duncan could never be a KH he doesn't have the genes
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