A macro-view of the GP

    Leto II’s plan for the survival of mankind

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Phaedrus
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Postby Phaedrus » 23 Feb 2008 20:13

loremaster wrote:I dont think that the Siona gene has (yet) been penetrated. I see your logic in the argument Freak, but i think if Teg really COULD see through the gene then both his reaction AND his actions would have been very different. It would have at least been mentioned. The siona gene is the PERMANENT limiting factor on oracular vision now. Prescients can see local currents (e.g. the navigator bought in to find idaho) but the prevalence of the gene means building up accurate pictures of the universe (a la Paul) is impossible now.
But OTOH the point to the scattering is an infinite universe, where anything could happen.... so that would logically suggest it CAN be penetrated..... but then this argument is circular in itself since it also suggests that ANOTHER Siona Gene MKII would arise, and so on ad infinitum.

And you could argue that no Prescient is ever safe since Paul could see navigators in the original (BUT I think Frank decided to backtrack on this after he decided prescience could be so much more interesting with conflicting visions)


Leto could see Guild Navigators. Paul couldn't.

I personally think that although they produce the same effect, the actual cause of prescient invisibilty in the siona gene and no-fields is entirely different (it has to be, one is organic). I always liked the explanation of "Latent" prescients. That was certainly the impression i got after Siona's desert trial, something like a "subconscious reverend mother.
She was sensitive to the golden path and its peril. and she felt the calls and the lessons of ancestors, but they could not penetrate her consciously, only a shadow to be carried into the world subconsciously. She also had atreides-amplified sensitivity to time - which came to fruition in miles etc....


But maybe the cause of invisibility in the no-chambers and no-ships is the prescient variable in the Ixian Machines? That would tie everything together nicely, wouldn't it?

The REAL question is.... was Miles predicted by the tyrant (logically, not presciently).... was he specifically bred for? Or did the tyrant know mutations would occur in Atreides but not care particularly what they would be?


I'm pretty sure he had a pretty good idea what was going to happen. After all, with centuries of BG breeding in his head he predicted Siona and bred for her, I'm sure he could figure out where that would lead in the long run. But he probably preferred not to know. So if anything, he had a guess, and we never knew whether he had one, or if he did, what it was. But I'd assume he had a good idea. He usually did on everything else.

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Postby SandChigger » 23 Feb 2008 21:17

Miles Teg is born and lives (both times) well after Leto's "period of interest", that four thousand years which he actively (fore)views and manipulates events in, and beyond which he only sneaks "glimpses" to ensure the GP has succeeded. I am dubious as to whether he foresaw Teg and his abilities; I'm convinced he did nothing specific to bring him (and them) about.
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Phaedrus
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Postby Phaedrus » 23 Feb 2008 22:19

SandChigger wrote:Miles Teg is born and lives (both times) well after Leto's "period of interest", that four thousand years which he actively (fore)views and manipulates events in, and beyond which he only sneaks "glimpses" to ensure the GP has succeeded. I am dubious as to whether he foresaw Teg and his abilities; I'm convinced he did nothing specific to bring him (and them) about.


I agree. I think he probably had some idea what would eventually happen in the Atreides line, to some point. I don't think he arrived at that point through prescience, and certainly didn't act to change anything beyond the Siona gene, but nonetheless, I'm sure he had some idea what the post-Golden Path universe would be like, in most aspects. He wouldn't be Leto if he didn't.

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Postby Crysknife » 24 Feb 2008 00:14

Loremaster, how could Leto see Teg in any vision if the Siona gene was the Permanent solution to prescience? It would seem that Leto defeated that perfect solution before it even started. I don't see how anything could be infered by Leto either, with all the no-people running around.

I do think that Teg could penetrate the no-gene. There is no way he could know where to meet up with the worm on Rakis if he couldn't. Remember, Teg couldn't see the future like Paul or Leto, he was limited to a few moments ahead, and as I recall, he chose to die, so his actions were perfectly valid in every situation. Leto’s goal was to get humanity past a single threat, so even if a prescient came along that could influence a local population, humanity as a whole was still way beyond his/her control.
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Postby SandChigger » 24 Feb 2008 06:00

Argh. I keep forgetting that wrinkle. :twisted:

Leto couldn't see Sionna (remember the empty footprints beside him in the sand?) so naturally he couldn't see Teg, or Odrade finding the spice hoard. When he peeked ahead, beyond the discovery of Dar-es-Balat, ALL he would be able to see would be people without the marker or evidence of human action, but not the actual people causing it, in places where the marker was predominant. And by that he would know the GP succeeded.
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Postby loremaster » 04 Mar 2008 11:38

Phaedrus said:


But maybe the cause of invisibility in the no-chambers and no-ships is the prescient variable in the Ixian Machines? That would tie everything together nicely, wouldn't it?


Bullseye, i had this thought before and forgot about it, masterful insight.

Phaedrus also said
Leto could see navigators, paul couldnt.



Paul could initially he quite clearly desribes being able to see them in dune, the first person in a long time to see them. I've said before that i think this may be a frank inconsistency, since his opinions and ideas changed as he carried on writing (prescience is more interesting when it isnt absolute, and can be hidden from...in DM, the rules of prescience were changed to include other prescients...., and their spheres of influence etc).

But paul definately saw them in dune.

crysknife said
Loremaster, how could Leto see Teg in any vision if the Siona gene was the Permanent solution to prescience? It would seem that Leto defeated that perfect solution before it even started. I don't see how anything could be infered by Leto either, with all the no-people running around.

I do think that Teg could penetrate the no-gene. There is no way he could know where to meet up with the worm on Rakis if he couldn't. Remember, Teg couldn't see the future like Paul or Leto, he was limited to a few moments ahead, and as I recall, he chose to die, so his actions were perfectly valid in every situation. Leto’s goal was to get humanity past a single threat, so even if a prescient came along that could influence a local population, humanity as a whole was still way beyond his/her control.


I didnt say leto could see teg, i dont think he could. i dont think ANYONE could see sion-etians.
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Postby Freakzilla » 04 Mar 2008 21:27

"There are people and things in our universe which I know only by their
effects," Edric said, his fish mouth held in a thin line. "I know they have been
here . . . there . . . somewhere. As water creatures stir up the currents in
their passage, so the prescient stir up Time. I have seen where your husband has
been; never have I seen him nor the people who truly share his aims and
loyalties. This is the concealment which an adept gives to those who are his."


I thought that relevant to the conversation.

I've always thought of the Siona Invisibility as latent Atreides prescience which creates a sphere of Creation around that person just enough to hide them.

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Postby Rakis » 04 Mar 2008 21:48

Freakzilla wrote:"There are people and things in our universe which I know only by their
effects," Edric said, his fish mouth held in a thin line. "I know they have been
here . . . there . . . somewhere. As water creatures stir up the currents in
their passage, so the prescient stir up Time. I have seen where your husband has
been; never have I seen him nor the people who truly share his aims and
loyalties. This is the concealment which an adept gives to those who are his."


I thought that relevant to the conversation.

I've always thought of the Siona Invisibility as latent Atreides prescience which creates a sphere of Creation around that person just enough to hide them.


Like the Invisible man movie; you see only the result of his actions... :)
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Postby Spicelon » 31 Mar 2008 00:02

SandChigger wrote:
Tleilax Master B wrote:Leto II couldn't have looked ahead to see which RM found his message; most of the RM including Odrade have the Siona Gene and would have been invisible to his prescience........

THANKS, B! :D

That completely slipped my mind when I was discus-ing that one back and forth with Nicodemus over on MySpace! (D'uh.)


Is it possible that he didn't have to know exactly which RM would read it? To use an analogy from the books, you can't see a fish in muddy water, but when it moves you can see its wake. If he knew a RM would find his words several millenia in the future, he could hedge his bets pretty well and construct his message for maximum effect.

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Postby SandChigger » 31 Mar 2008 02:32

Hiya.

That's the way I read it: he left clues that only an RM with OM could find and correctly interpret. He didn't (couldn't) see exactly WHO found it, but he knew that the BG would.

He would have been able to see when the chamber was opened or emptied out, though, even if the people doing it were invisible, no? ;)
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Postby orald » 31 Mar 2008 12:49

SandChigger wrote:Hiya.

That's the way I read it: he left clues that only an RM with OM could find and correctly interpret. He didn't (couldn't) see exactly WHO found it, but he knew that the BG would.

That's why he says a RM will read his words.

He would have been able to see when the chamber was opened or emptied out, though, even if the people doing it were invisible, no? ;)

Probably so.

I was just thinking that the "Harkonnen man sacrificers" comment would indicate he's out of date, but then again at about the same time we learn of the Harkonnen no-globe, with 21(?) skeletons. Could it be a refrence to it?
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Postby Spicelon » 31 Mar 2008 14:53

Howdy ho!

SandChigger wrote:He would have been able to see when the chamber was opened or emptied out, though, even if the people doing it were invisible, no? ;)



Totally. IMNSHO of course. This always presented me with a conundrum though. I think it's Cedric (Edric?) from DM who first lets on that even though one can't "see" certain blindspots in the Oracle, one can still infer quite a bit by observing the interactions around these blind spots. Applying that to the GE, you'd have to think that he's a pretty bright worm even without prescience, so I'd think the scope of what he knew extended well beyond what he could "see" or not see with prescience. IF THAT is the case, I find it odd that any of the so called no-projects actually surprised him.

I am totally due for a re-read.

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Postby orald » 31 Mar 2008 16:48

It's Edric. Quite an ugly name IMO...for whatever reason... :roll:

God Leto wasn't surprised by any of the no-projects, in fact, he was quite certain about what the Ixians were doing, and gave that BG he sent good instructions on what she was supposed to find on Ix. Not too surprising I guess, since he already ordered an earlier version of it to hide his printers.
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Postby Spicelon » 31 Mar 2008 18:23

orald wrote:It's Edric. Quite an ugly name IMO...for whatever reason... :roll:

God Leto wasn't surprised...since he already ordered an earlier version of it to hide his printers.


Ooooo, I forgot about that. Good catch. So much to read, so little time. :(
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Postby SandChigger » 31 Mar 2008 21:13

Ahp, the Dar-es-Balat no-chamber was either THE prototype or not far removed from it. ;)


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Postby Anathema » 08 Jul 2008 11:13

loremaster wrote:Paul could initially he quite clearly desribes being able to see them in dune, the first person in a long time to see them. I've said before that i think this may be a frank inconsistency, since his opinions and ideas changed as he carried on writing (prescience is more interesting when it isnt absolute, and can be hidden from...in DM, the rules of prescience were changed to include other prescients...., and their spheres of influence etc).


I think his literal words were "I have seen the Now" and "the space above Arrakis is filled with ships of the Guild" or something close to that. I still think that he knew this by inference and not by actually seeing the ships itself or the steersmen. Of course he actually saw (presumably fairly new) navigators with his actual eyes at the end of the novel.

I think that the scope of one's vision doesn't depend on the prescient ability itself, but also how much wordly influence one wields and thus how you can actually shape your surroundings, your freedom of action. It's mentioned in CoD that Paul's vision was taken away because Leto "took over the reins", meaning that there wasn't anything within Pauls power to prevent Leto from doing what he intended. The Guild, by its very nature, can be practicly paralyzed by the fear of losing their source of spice, negating their potential as oracles.

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Postby Anathema » 27 Aug 2008 06:52

Do you people think that FH intended Leto II's statement about extinction to be literate?

I can see how society could grow completely degenerate by athropy, but I have some problems with accepting that humankind as a whole could perish when it's spread on so many planets (even pre-scattering)

I imagine that in the Old Empire there'd be very few planets who'd be completely self-sufficient so I could accept that in the absense of trading they would perish eventually, even if only because most planets would lack the recources to maintain weather control systems. But that's only speculation.

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Postby Freakzilla » 27 Aug 2008 08:32

Anathema wrote:Do you people think that FH intended Leto II's statement about extinction to be literate?

I can see how society could grow completely degenerate by athropy, but I have some problems with accepting that humankind as a whole could perish when it's spread on so many planets (even pre-scattering)

I imagine that in the Old Empire there'd be very few planets who'd be completely self-sufficient so I could accept that in the absense of trading they would perish eventually, even if only because most planets would lack the recources to maintain weather control systems. But that's only speculation.


Without me there would have been by now no people anywhere, none whatsoever.
~Leto II, God Emperor of Dune

That's a pretty definitive statement, I don't see much room for interpretation there.
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Postby Serkanner » 27 Aug 2008 09:46

It actually reminds me of numerous statemets by Adolf Hitler stating there would be no Germany anymore after him ( losing the war ).
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Postby Freakzilla » 27 Aug 2008 10:59

Baraka Bryan wrote:
Serkanner wrote:It actually reminds me of numerous statemets by Adolf Hitler stating there would be no Germany anymore after him ( losing the war ).



cue Orald with a scathing denouncement of your comparing Leto II to Hitler :P:P :lol:


:Adolf:
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Postby orald » 29 Aug 2008 09:18

Oh, yes, because Baraka here thinks it's entirely appropriate and accurate as well.
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Postby Freakzilla » 29 Aug 2008 09:49

Orald, you should start a "Jews for Hitler" web site. I bet it'd be very popular.

:)
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Postby orald » 29 Aug 2008 14:45

Now that you mention it, it could be hilarious... :twisted:
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Postby Serkanner » 29 Aug 2008 16:21

What is wrong with Hitler posts?
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Postby orald » 29 Aug 2008 17:47

Nothing, I don't get Baraka's comment either. :?

What IS wrong is comparing God Leto to someone bad, say, Hitler.
That's bad.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.