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    Leto II’s plan for the survival of mankind

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Rakis
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Postby Rakis » 29 Aug 2008 22:09

orald wrote:Nothing, I don't get Baraka's comment either. :?

What IS wrong is comparing God Leto to someone bad, say, Hitler.
That's bad.


I agree with Orald :

Leto : Not pants

Hitler : Pants

There you go... :P
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Postby orald » 30 Aug 2008 06:02

So you're here to replace Poop'alon with his poop comments now?
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

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Postby orald » 30 Aug 2008 12:06

No shit? :roll:

Seems I have to uphold God Leto's reputation in this powindah infested forum, as no one else seems to do so.
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Postby Serkanner » 30 Aug 2008 17:49

There was nothing wrong about my comparison of Hitler with Leto. I have the quotes to back it up.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

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Postby orald » 30 Aug 2008 19:41

Serkanner wrote:There was nothing wrong about my comparison of Hitler with Leto. I have the quotes to back it up.

Lies! All lies! :x


And isn't that Paul who compares himself with Hitler anyway?
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Postby Rakis » 30 Aug 2008 21:57

orald wrote:So you're here to replace Poop'alon with his poop comments now?


But...but...i said pants, not poop... :(
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Postby Serkanner » 31 Aug 2008 06:32

orald wrote:
Serkanner wrote:There was nothing wrong about my comparison of Hitler with Leto. I have the quotes to back it up.

Lies! All lies! :x


And isn't that Paul who compares himself with Hitler anyway?


It was me who compared one expression by Leto that can be compared to similar expression ( predictions ) by Hitler. Both state during conversations that without them there would be no humanity, or in Hitler's case Germans, left if their plans would fail.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
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Postby orald » 31 Aug 2008 07:18

Oh, yes, and I took note of that comment because it had such merrit, of course.

Hey, don't forget Leto's made a 4th reich that endured for a thousand* years, burned books(and people), AND was dabbling in eugenics! OMG Leto was a nazi! :o

I also find direct parrallels between Leto's tower room and Hitler's Eagle's Nest(?), Leto's tunnels and underground chambers and Hitler's bunkers and how Leto survived numerous assassination attempts by his closest advisors(a past Duncan, with a bomb in his briefcase) much like Hitler did.
Clearly, Leto is based on Hitler- even their names suggest it- both have "L" and "E" in it.


*Well, three and a half thousand, but who counts?
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Postby Serkanner » 31 Aug 2008 08:30

orald wrote:Oh, yes, and I took note of that comment because it had such merrit, of course.

Hey, don't forget Leto's made a 4th reich that endured for a thousand* years, burned books(and people), AND was dabbling in eugenics! OMG Leto was a nazi! :o

I also find direct parrallels between Leto's tower room and Hitler's Eagle's Nest(?), Leto's tunnels and underground chambers and Hitler's bunkers and how Leto survived numerous assassination attempts by his closest advisors(a past Duncan, with a bomb in his briefcase) much like Hitler did.
Clearly, Leto is based on Hitler- even their names suggest it- both have "L" and "E" in it.


*Well, three and a half thousand, but who counts?


Anymore bullshit?

I didn't say that Leto was based on Hitler. I just mentioned those two expressions were similar. I came across the Hitler reference while reading the great biography by Bullock. Nowhere did I try to state that Herbert based Leto on Hitler. Jeez.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

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Postby SandChigger » 31 Aug 2008 09:29

Don't bother, Serkanner. This from the page before explains it all:

orald wrote:Seems I have to uphold God Leto's reputation in this powindah infested forum, as no one else seems to do so.

Anything he perceives as disrespectful to his precious God Leto prompts a tirade.

Usually it's amusing.
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Postby orald » 31 Aug 2008 12:18

God Leto is just misunderstood! :cry:
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Postby dunepunk » 16 Dec 2008 22:57

I actually have thought about the Golden Path in terms of free will before. I'm not sure it's an accurate description of FH's intent, but I find it interesting to consider:

It's mentioned several times in the series that the prescient creates the future by seeing it-- I'm pretty sure not in those words, but pretty close to it. The comment this makes on the rest of humanity is that they are unable to create the future, since they can't control it. This makes it seem like they are cogs in a universal machine, while prescients have the ability to see the future and choose from the various paths that they see. An oracle cannot see another prescient due to the presence of free will in that person's actions.

So invisibility to prescience is equivalent to free will. The Siona gene, then, is a genetic manipulation that instills the individual with free will without the additional capacity for prescience. No- technology could then be a technology that allows for the exercise of free will within its confines-- still without the ability of prescience.

I think it might be possible to interpret the Golden Path as Leto's work in this direction. Maybe through building free will into such large portions of humanity, Leto has ensured the Scattering (by allowing so many people to choose their own course of action, it would be almost a statistical necessity that people would choose to scatter. It would, however, be impossible to determine WHO specifically, etc.)


So yeah, I'm not even sure I agree with the ideas I just posted, but I do find them interesting to consider. :D
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Postby SandRider » 16 Dec 2008 23:26

and the refugees from the shithole that is Merritt's Wasteland
come stumbling in. Are you badly hurt ? Do you need a medic ?
Chig, get this guy some water.

now, I ain't sure I understood half of what you said, but I didn't see
no references to tranny robots, so welcome.




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Postby SandChigger » 16 Dec 2008 23:44

Hopefully Freak can give us the exact references for the supporting quotes.

I personally have never liked a literal interpretation of the idea that the mere act of seeing the future creates it, because it makes no sense to me. Action is what has results. (Or inaction.) For prescience to create a result, it must be an action of some sort. I prefer to see it as a perception, something more passive. (Think here of the ancient Greek theory of vision, with beams shooting from the eyes, rather than what we now know is the truer view, of reflected light flowing in.) But at the same time I have no good explanation for why one prescient cannot see another.

I find your ideas about free will rather depressing. Dune is already too much about special, extraordinary people. Now you would take even free will from Everyman?

Remember that there is nothing magical or truly supernatural about prescience in the Duniverse. Paul can see because of who he is (his genetics, developed and nuRtured over millennia by the Bene Gesserit, and his Mentat training) and what he does: ingesting the spice (an actual physical chemical substance). Seeing is making smacks too much of magic (and super midgets) for me.
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Postby loremaster » 17 Dec 2008 11:19

some interesting insights there dunepunk. And a nice follow up from chig.

I think i would build a third model, to do with "creating" the future via prescience.

I always thought the idea of a prescient "locking" the future onto a fixed course was most significant. Consider the following scenario (a la butterfly effect):

I become prescient. I see that if i step out onto the road at 11.13pm tomorrow i die. Therefore i adjust my actions accordingly. This creates a new future, one where (hypothetically) I would suffer a different fate. Now this new fate might be to miss my train and end up meeting the girl of my dreams. OR it might be getting stabbed 10 minutes later in an alleyway and bleeding to death over half an hour. If it was the latter i would then adjust my actions accordingly. And so on until i found a situation which, knowing the consequences I chose to do it anyway.

To me this is the "locking" of the future onto a fixed path. Only the interaction of another prescients vision/meddling will derail it.

Textual evidence? Not much. But it is always how i have pictured prescience generating a fixed path.

Although, Chig. I'm sure we've debated before but im not convinced of the role of mentat abilities in the role of prescience? Do you need to be a mentat to be prescient? Alia wasnt (AFAIK). But she probably had some in OM.
I'm much more interested in the link between prescience and OM actually. Prompted by the quote about Siona at the end of GEoD. (massively paraphrasing):

she walks amongst us, amongst the memories, but she is not seen, she is safe from possession
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Postby Freakzilla » 17 Dec 2008 11:24

SandChigger wrote:Hopefully Freak can give us the exact references for the supporting quotes.


I'm not sure what you're looking to support. :?
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Postby loremaster » 17 Dec 2008 11:42

sandchigger
But at the same time I have no good explanation for why one prescient cannot see another.


I go for a sort of "waves and interference" type approach. A la Bats and Echolocation.

Sometimes, the two add together to create a sort of constructive interference, other times they are alongside and cancel out to create a no-future. One which isnt locked.

To add to my earlier comment too. Think Schroedingers Cat.

The bastard is alive or dead until A prescient collapses the field and the cat has to be either alive or dead.

IOW, there is no way to know if i will choose the red pill or the blue pill, until that decision point actually arrives. Philosophically, i havent chosen until that decision point arrives. UNLESS a prescient considers the matter beforehand. A prescient is one which can collapse a quantum uncertainty WITHOUT observing it.

Check that for a technobabble answer.
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Postby Freakzilla » 17 Dec 2008 12:02

Alia was prescient. She converted the Water of Life and prophesied from her fane daily.
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Postby Freakzilla » 17 Dec 2008 12:18

"There are people and things in our universe which I know only by their
effects," Edric said, his fish mouth held in a thin line. "I know they have been
here . . . there . . . somewhere. As water creatures stir up the currents in
their passage, so the prescient stir up Time. I have seen where your husband has
been; never have I seen him nor the people who truly share his aims and
loyalties. This is the concealment which an adept gives to those who are his."

~Dune Messiah

Here's my take on prescient invisibility:

FH likes to say that the oracle creates the future but that's simplistic. The (powerfull) prescient sees all possible futures and chooses a course of action which will cause one particular vision to become reality. This, of itself, is why prescients can't see each other.

The oracle creates a sphere of influence around him when he chooses a vision, the size of which varies directly with the magnitude of their prescience. For example, Leto's might cover his multi-galactic empire, Paul's was a little smaller. A Guild Navigator's would have to be at least large enough to cover a Hieghliner. One oracle can not see into another oracles sphere of influence because they don't know which vision the other will choose to "create" their own reality.

This brings me to the Siona Gene, which is basically latent prescience with a sphere of influence that only covers the individual. They cannot consciously use the prescience but it is still there and it is enough to conceal them.

I hope that makes sense, it does in my head but it's difficult to put into words.

What really made me think of this idea was Bellonda's comment about foldspace possibly introducing us to alternate/parallel universes. Expanding and collapsing bubbles.
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Postby Frybread » 17 Dec 2008 13:17

GodEmperorJason wrote:I think its telling that given all of the factions in the Old Empire, we are exposed in the books to relatively few factions of the much larger Scattering. It always gave me the impression that the HMs, NFDs and even the Enemy were only a very small part of it.

"Leto's voice came in wheezing gasps: "Let them scatter, Duncan. Let them run and hide anywhere they want in any universe they choose."


"My gift," Leto said. "Nobody will find the descendants of Siona. The Oracle cannot see her."
"What?" They spoke in unison, leaning close to hear his fading voice.
"I give you a new kind of time without parallels," he said. "It will always diverge. There will be no concurrent points on its curves. I give you the Golden Path. That is my gift. Never again will you have the kinds of concurrence that once you had."


I would have liked if FH had written more about the Lost Ones in Dune 7, but instead we got thinking machines, an insecure A.I. and a cross-dressing robot, and the super-duper KH.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Dec 2008 15:25

Freakzilla wrote:"There are people and things in our universe which I know only by their
effects," Edric said, his fish mouth held in a thin line. "I know they have been
here . . . there . . . somewhere. As water creatures stir up the currents in
their passage, so the prescient stir up Time. I have seen where your husband has
been; never have I seen him nor the people who truly share his aims and
loyalties. This is the concealment which an adept gives to those who are his."

~Dune Messiah

Here's my take on prescient invisibility:

FH likes to say that the oracle creates the future but that's simplistic. The (powerfull) prescient sees all possible futures and chooses a course of action which will cause one particular vision to become reality. This, of itself, is why prescients can't see each other.

The oracle creates a sphere of influence around him when he chooses a vision, the size of which varies directly with the magnitude of their prescience. For example, Leto's might cover his multi-galactic empire, Paul's was a little smaller. A Guild Navigator's would have to be at least large enough to cover a Hieghliner. One oracle can not see into another oracles sphere of influence because they don't know which vision the other will choose to "create" their own reality.

This brings me to the Siona Gene, which is basically latent prescience with a sphere of influence that only covers the individual. They cannot consciously use the prescience but it is still there and it is enough to conceal them.

I hope that makes sense, it does in my head but it's difficult to put into words.

What really made me think of this idea was Bellonda's comment about foldspace possibly introducing us to alternate/parallel universes. Expanding and collapsing bubbles.


This is probably the best and simplist explaination I've seen so far for why prescients cannot see each other. Helped clear up my own thoughts on the matter.

Thanks Freak.
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Postby SandChigger » 17 Dec 2008 15:52

Ahp. ;)

I was looking for some quote about the prescient "creating" the future. I take it there is none, in those words. (I couldn't find one.)

Everyone seems to be mentioning deciding to act or not act based on what is foreseen, so I'm satisfied that there's no hocus-pocus being slipped in the backdoor. No arguments here. :)
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Postby Schu » 18 Dec 2008 01:33

SandChigger wrote:Ahp. ;)

I was looking for some quote about the prescient "creating" the future. I take it there is none, in those words. (I couldn't find one.)


The last chapter of Heretics seems to have a bit about it. Particularly:
He didn't predict events, he created them.

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Postby SandChigger » 18 Dec 2008 04:11

Ah...

"I thought you deserved an explanation of the Mother Superior's design. It was aimed at the destruction of Rakis, you see. What she really wanted was the elimination of almost all of the worms."

"Great Gods below! Why?"

"They were an oracular force holding us in bondage. Those pearls of the Tyrant's awareness magnified that hold. He didn't predict events, he created them."

Duncan pointed toward the rear of the ship. "But what about..."

"That one? It's just one now. By the time it reaches sufficient numbers to be an influence once more, humankind will have gone its own way beyond him. We'll be too numerous by then, doing too many different things on our own. No single force will rule all of our futures completely, never again."

I don't know that I'll ever understand how this part is supposed to work. :?

The worms are not conscious themselves, and Leto, for all those "pearls of awareness" is not fully conscious within them. He's (lucid?) dreaming an endless dream, IIRC. (She lowered her hands and whispered: "You will be conscious?" / "In a way...but mute. A little pearl of my awareness will go with every sandworm and every sandtrout—knowing yet unable to move a single cell, aware in an endless dream.")

If he is no longer able to act and is not even aware, how can he influence events and hold humanity to a single course? It makes no sense to me.

I can get him foreseeing every contingency and arranging things before his death to insure that the "momentum" of events would carry the race through the bottleneck he had created and result in the explosion of the Scattering, but after a point, small random actions among the multitudes would move things further and further from his vision. Especially since (he says) he did not look much beyond a certain point in time and therefore did not micromanage eternity.

But let's, for the sake of argument, say he did. (Or at least tried.) Let's say he looked ahead to the end of time and decided how he wanted the future of the species to go until then. Is there any way that he could arrange events in his present to ensure that every future event would transpire as he wanted? I can't see how he could, being mortal. Events would eventually drift further and further from what he wanted unless there were someone always ready to nudge them back in the proper direction. (As he did while alive.)

Could this prescient bondage be nothing more than a mass hallucination of the Bene Gesserit? (Edit: probably delusion would make more sense there. Long day...I was zonked.) A misunderstanding perhaps of the real shepherding role that Leto hoped they would accept and undertake?

(I don't mean by that anything like "keeping humanity on the Golden Path" or "ensuring that the Golden Path continued". After the Scattering, humanity would always survive somewhere, so the Golden Path could never fail. But in what form and in what manner the race would develop remained an open question. Determining that direction is where the guidance of the BG comes in. ???)
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Postby inhuien » 18 Dec 2008 08:43

“He didn't predict events, he created them”

I think there is a danger in taking those words to literally. I’m she didn’t mean that he created every event outlined by FH but he did get the ball rolling. In the same way if you roll a ball down a hill you don’t need to guide it’s every bounce to know it’ll get to the bottom.