A macro-view of the GP

    Leto II’s plan for the survival of mankind

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Postby SandChigger » 18 Dec 2008 09:01

That's a nice way of putting it. :)
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Postby SandRider » 18 Dec 2008 12:49

Chig wrote:Could this prescient bondage be nothing more than a mass hallucination of the Bene Gesserit? (Edit: probably delusion would make more sense there. Long day...I was zonked.) A misunderstanding perhaps of the real shepherding role that Leto hoped they would accept and undertake?
Bryan wrote:I agree with chig that the belief that Leto still managed their everyday lives was possible delusion stemming from the widespread believe in his deity.


Right. The nuduneman had this "discussion" with Arnie Over There (some of which is still posted).
He tossed that line out too, completely out of context. I swear to G-d, some of these people are worse
than the psychos that drove me out of the Southern Baptist Church. They toss something off, and it takes
more effort than I want to give it to show the correct context and meaning, and then they still won't
accept it. Case in point IS the current "Alien Roads" bullshit.

It's exactly like Mohiam's simple statement on the Butlerian Jihad.
Paul said when you pass thru it, time is like a narrow door - (Chig, grab me the entire quote, will ya ? you know what I mean)

That was always enough for me. Prescience doesn't create anything. It shows the possible futures.
By choosing one of those possibilities, prescience could be said to create history, but then, every
action creates history.
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Postby SandChigger » 18 Dec 2008 19:24

Every action creates and destroys infinite future worlds. (And here I'm using infinite in its real meaning, not hyperbolically. ;) )

This what you wanted?

Muad'Dib could indeed, see the Future, but you must understand the limits of this power. Think of sight. You have eyes, yet cannot see without light. If you are on the floor of a valley, you cannot see beyond your valley. Just so, Muad'Dib could not always choose to look across the mysterious terrain. He tells us that a single obscure decision of prophecy, perhaps the choice of one word over another, could change the entire aspect of the future. He tells us "The vision of time is broad, but when you pass through it, time becomes a narrow door." And always, he fought the temptation to choose a clear, safe course, warning "That path leads ever down into stagnation."
—from "Arrakis Awakening" by the Princess Irulan
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Postby SandRider » 18 Dec 2008 23:57

yeah, that's the one - in an epigraph ? no wonder I couldn't find just flipping pages - I had thought it was something Paul had said to Stilgar right before the battle of Arrakeen.



"The vision of time is broad, but when you pass through it, time becomes a narrow door."

There is it. All you pretards : Shut the Fuck Up.
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Postby SandChigger » 19 Dec 2008 00:53

Well...it was written by Irulan...and you know what a lying, myth-making biatch she was.

:roll:
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Postby SandRider » 19 Dec 2008 01:03

I started to say something about that, too, but had a brain freeze.
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Postby SandChigger » 19 Dec 2008 01:18

Well, apply some more anti-freeze from the porch fridge and you'll be OK.
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Postby Seraphan » 21 Dec 2008 09:48

Baraka Bryan wrote:by the time of rakis' destruction, humanity had already scattered and the goal of humanity's survival had been accomplished. I agree with chig that the belief that Leto still managed their everyday lives was possible delusion stemming from the widespread believe in his deity. 'pearls of awareness' aren't the same as 'pearls of continued control' he would be aware of the scattering and the success of his plans, but unable to continue to influence

Yes it does seem to make more sence. When reading Heretics for the first time and Taraza's plan became clear i thought that it was typical BG fear and insecurity. Seeing as to how they killed some of Odrade's children that showed strange abilities out of the fear of a kwizats Haderach, the justification mentioned above for destroying the worms doesnt seem that far fetched i guess.
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Postby Freakzilla » 22 Dec 2008 17:39

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:"There are people and things in our universe which I know only by their
effects," Edric said, his fish mouth held in a thin line. "I know they have been
here . . . there . . . somewhere. As water creatures stir up the currents in
their passage, so the prescient stir up Time. I have seen where your husband has
been; never have I seen him nor the people who truly share his aims and
loyalties. This is the concealment which an adept gives to those who are his."

~Dune Messiah

Here's my take on prescient invisibility:

FH likes to say that the oracle creates the future but that's simplistic. The (powerfull) prescient sees all possible futures and chooses a course of action which will cause one particular vision to become reality. This, of itself, is why prescients can't see each other.

The oracle creates a sphere of influence around him when he chooses a vision, the size of which varies directly with the magnitude of their prescience. For example, Leto's might cover his multi-galactic empire, Paul's was a little smaller. A Guild Navigator's would have to be at least large enough to cover a Hieghliner. One oracle can not see into another oracles sphere of influence because they don't know which vision the other will choose to "create" their own reality.

This brings me to the Siona Gene, which is basically latent prescience with a sphere of influence that only covers the individual. They cannot consciously use the prescience but it is still there and it is enough to conceal them.

I hope that makes sense, it does in my head but it's difficult to put into words.

What really made me think of this idea was Bellonda's comment about foldspace possibly introducing us to alternate/parallel universes. Expanding and collapsing bubbles.


This is probably the best and simplist explaination I've seen so far for why prescients cannot see each other. Helped clear up my own thoughts on the matter.

Thanks Freak.


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Postby Nekhrun » 22 Dec 2008 17:57

Freakzilla wrote:I exist only to serve. :D

You may as well just put that in your sig.

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Postby Schu » 22 Dec 2008 20:27

I like it too: it kinda agrees with how Leto loved that Siona was so "alive", I interpret that as being admiration that she can choose her own course, is master of her own destiny to some degree rather than slavishly following some natural course, even if she can't consciously see the future (without going on a spice trip [in two senses of the word!]).

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Postby Freakzilla » 23 Dec 2008 00:46

Of course Leto realised that prescience is a fatal crutch and he bred to supress it in the Atreides, resulting in Siona. But I think he wanted it to be just close enough to the surface to give them an edge, kind of an instinct. The Bene Gesserit interbreeding schemes produced "wild outcroppings of Atreides genes" like Teg and Odrade but I'm not sure that was so much planned by Leto as BG tampering. On the contrary, Teg's doubled vision and especially his ability to see no-fields seems to me like a monkey wrench in the plans.
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Postby Frybread » 25 Dec 2008 14:26

Freakzilla wrote:Of course Leto realised that prescience is a fatal crutch and he bred to supress it in the Atreides, resulting in Siona. But I think he wanted it to be just close enough to the surface to give them an edge, kind of an instinct. The Bene Gesserit interbreeding schemes produced "wild outcroppings of Atreides genes" like Teg and Odrade but I'm not sure that was so much planned by Leto as BG tampering. On the contrary, Teg's doubled vision and especially his ability to see no-fields seems to me like a monkey wrench in the plans.


Teg's ability was weird. He could see into the immediate future and on a very local scale, it seemed to me.

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Postby Schu » 31 Dec 2008 14:01

SandChigger wrote:Ahp. ;)

I was looking for some quote about the prescient "creating" the future. I take it there is none, in those words. (I couldn't find one.)


Found another from Dune, page 341 in my copy.

The prescience, he realised, was an illumination that incorporated the limits of what it revealed - at once a source of accuracy and meaningful error. a kind of Heisenberg indeterminacy intervened: the expenditure of energy that revealed what he saw, changed what he saw.


A little less direct than the HoD quotes, but interesting nonetheless.

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Postby Freakzilla » 31 Dec 2008 14:25

Frybread wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Of course Leto realised that prescience is a fatal crutch and he bred to supress it in the Atreides, resulting in Siona. But I think he wanted it to be just close enough to the surface to give them an edge, kind of an instinct. The Bene Gesserit interbreeding schemes produced "wild outcroppings of Atreides genes" like Teg and Odrade but I'm not sure that was so much planned by Leto as BG tampering. On the contrary, Teg's doubled vision and especially his ability to see no-fields seems to me like a monkey wrench in the plans.


Teg's ability was weird. He could see into the immediate future and on a very local scale, it seemed to me.


That I don't see as being very far outside of what Leto anticipated as far as human evolution. At least, not a dangerous developement.

Being able to See people with the Siona Gene (as finding Odrade and Sheeana on Rakis implies) might be though. However if The Scattering was successfull it wouldn't pose any threat to the GP, only change the nature of warfare.
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Postby SandChigger » 31 Dec 2008 19:27

Schu wrote:Found another from Dune, page 341 in my copy.

The prescience, he realised, was an illumination that incorporated the limits of what it revealed - at once a source of accuracy and meaningful error. a kind of Heisenberg indeterminacy intervened: the expenditure of energy that revealed what he saw, changed what he saw.


A little less direct than the HoD quotes, but interesting nonetheless.

Thanks, Schu! Something to mull over....
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Postby loremaster » 01 Jan 2009 06:51

Following my last embarassment over the "worms eat sand" debacle (sp?) I'm gonna have another go with my peculiar take on things, as usual without quotes as i only possess two shoddy pdfs of dune and messiah.

But i distinctly remember leto talking about "reverting" humanity back in a lot of ways, almost as though we had forgotten something, that we had become something different/stagnated ( a concept i also found hard to swallow since he constantly railed against the past, nostalgia and a "return to some ancient golden time that infact never existed").

But to what extent did the golden path change the collective psyche of humanity? Certainly the gp created "special" people, (Sheanna, Duncan, Teg etc) and it did have a profound effect on the Bene Atreides, Tleilaxu etc.

But to Joe Farmer, or the population of new new new new new new york. What differences (aside from the development of technologies) did he/they feel?

So far i got:

1) Someone at the start of heretics tells us that war is just 2% of what it was pre tyrant.

2) I'm pretty sure we can add wanderlust to the list of things people felt afterwards.

Discuss,
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Postby Schu » 01 Jan 2009 07:30

loremaster wrote:1) Someone at the start of heretics tells us that war is just 2% of what it was pre tyrant.


But that wasn't counting the enormous amount of fighting the Honoured Matres did: in fact, the very next line after that is said, someone else (Odrade I think, and Taraza was the person that quoted that stat) says that that doesn't take in to account unavailable figures from the scattering.

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Postby Seraphan » 01 Jan 2009 09:13

Freakzilla wrote:"There are people and things in our universe which I know only by their
effects," Edric said, his fish mouth held in a thin line. "I know they have been
here . . . there . . . somewhere. As water creatures stir up the currents in
their passage, so the prescient stir up Time. I have seen where your husband has
been; never have I seen him nor the people who truly share his aims and
loyalties. This is the concealment which an adept gives to those who are his."

~Dune Messiah

Here's my take on prescient invisibility:

FH likes to say that the oracle creates the future but that's simplistic. The (powerfull) prescient sees all possible futures and chooses a course of action which will cause one particular vision to become reality. This, of itself, is why prescients can't see each other.

The oracle creates a sphere of influence around him when he chooses a vision, the size of which varies directly with the magnitude of their prescience. For example, Leto's might cover his multi-galactic empire, Paul's was a little smaller. A Guild Navigator's would have to be at least large enough to cover a Hieghliner. One oracle can not see into another oracles sphere of influence because they don't know which vision the other will choose to "create" their own reality.

This brings me to the Siona Gene, which is basically latent prescience with a sphere of influence that only covers the individual. They cannot consciously use the prescience but it is still there and it is enough to conceal them.

I hope that makes sense, it does in my head but it's difficult to put into words.

What really made me think of this idea was Bellonda's comment about foldspace possibly introducing us to alternate/parallel universes. Expanding and collapsing bubbles.

There's a quote from GEoD about Leto, the Guild and Siona:
"A Guild Navigator could conceal himself from the oracular eye of the Lord Leto's father"
"But not from the Lord Leto"
"I have read the full Guild report with care. She does not so much conceal himself and her actions around her as well..."
"She fades, they said. She fades from their sight"
"She alone," Anteac said.

This no doubt supports Freakzilla's take on prescience. Although in Siona it seems to be more, since she fades from both Leto's and the Guild's sight, but the Guild does not fade from Leto's. So it's just not simple prescience involved.
I'm currently re-reading GEoD and noticed the quote above, i'll see what i can come up to later on.
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Postby Freakzilla » 01 Jan 2009 12:45

Seraphan wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:"There are people and things in our universe which I know only by their
effects," Edric said, his fish mouth held in a thin line. "I know they have been
here . . . there . . . somewhere. As water creatures stir up the currents in
their passage, so the prescient stir up Time. I have seen where your husband has
been; never have I seen him nor the people who truly share his aims and
loyalties. This is the concealment which an adept gives to those who are his."

~Dune Messiah

Here's my take on prescient invisibility:

FH likes to say that the oracle creates the future but that's simplistic. The (powerfull) prescient sees all possible futures and chooses a course of action which will cause one particular vision to become reality. This, of itself, is why prescients can't see each other.

The oracle creates a sphere of influence around him when he chooses a vision, the size of which varies directly with the magnitude of their prescience. For example, Leto's might cover his multi-galactic empire, Paul's was a little smaller. A Guild Navigator's would have to be at least large enough to cover a Hieghliner. One oracle can not see into another oracles sphere of influence because they don't know which vision the other will choose to "create" their own reality.

This brings me to the Siona Gene, which is basically latent prescience with a sphere of influence that only covers the individual. They cannot consciously use the prescience but it is still there and it is enough to conceal them.

I hope that makes sense, it does in my head but it's difficult to put into words.

What really made me think of this idea was Bellonda's comment about foldspace possibly introducing us to alternate/parallel universes. Expanding and collapsing bubbles.

There's a quote from GEoD about Leto, the Guild and Siona:
"A Guild Navigator could conceal himself from the oracular eye of the Lord Leto's father"
"But not from the Lord Leto"
"I have read the full Guild report with care. She does not so much conceal himself and her actions around her as well..."
"She fades, they said. She fades from their sight"
"She alone," Anteac said.

This no doubt supports Freakzilla's take on prescience. Although in Siona it seems to be more, since she fades from both Leto's and the Guild's sight, but the Guild does not fade from Leto's. So it's just not simple prescience involved.
I'm currently re-reading GEoD and noticed the quote above, i'll see what i can come up to later on.


Even though the Siona Gene, according to my theory, achieves invisibility though latent prescience, the magnitute of the prescience can still vary. It could be possible that the latent prescience from the Siona Gene is more powerfull than Leto's.

In Teg's case, he would be semi-latent, or semi-operant, depending on if your cup is half full or half empty.

:wink:
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Postby Mandy » 01 Jan 2009 17:26

loremaster wrote:But i distinctly remember leto talking about "reverting" humanity back in a lot of ways, almost as though we had forgotten something, that we had become something different/stagnated ( a concept i also found hard to swallow since he constantly railed against the past, nostalgia and a "return to some ancient golden time that infact never existed").

But to what extent did the golden path change the collective psyche of humanity? Certainly the gp created "special" people, (Sheanna, Duncan, Teg etc) and it did have a profound effect on the Bene Atreides, Tleilaxu etc.

But to Joe Farmer, or the population of new new new new new new york. What differences (aside from the development of technologies) did he/they feel?

So far i got:

1) Someone at the start of heretics tells us that war is just 2% of what it was pre tyrant.

2) I'm pretty sure we can add wanderlust to the list of things people felt afterwards.

Discuss,


I don't think he meant a return to some past golden age, but I do think he wanted people to become more self reliant, and independent. He took conveniences away, forcing people to do for themselves. They had to be innovative, like people in the past were.

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Postby moreh_yeladim » 07 Jan 2009 15:11

Mandy wrote:
loremaster wrote:But i distinctly remember leto talking about "reverting" humanity back in a lot of ways, almost as though we had forgotten something, that we had become something different/stagnated ( a concept i also found hard to swallow since he constantly railed against the past, nostalgia and a "return to some ancient golden time that infact never existed").

But to what extent did the golden path change the collective psyche of humanity? Certainly the gp created "special" people, (Sheanna, Duncan, Teg etc) and it did have a profound effect on the Bene Atreides, Tleilaxu etc.

But to Joe Farmer, or the population of new new new new new new york. What differences (aside from the development of technologies) did he/they feel?

So far i got:

1) Someone at the start of heretics tells us that war is just 2% of what it was pre tyrant.

2) I'm pretty sure we can add wanderlust to the list of things people felt afterwards.

Discuss,


I don't think he meant a return to some past golden age, but I do think he wanted people to become more self reliant, and independent. He took conveniences away, forcing people to do for themselves. They had to be innovative, like people in the past were.

Yeah, it seemed to me like the thing he wanted to "give back" was humanity's ability to evolve and change, which had degenerated to practically nothing by even Paul's time.

I mean, think how fast our societies change. Humanity must have lost something to live in a single organization (the Imperium) for even mere thousands of years, let alone 10s of thousands. In the real world the only civilizations that have remained the same for thousands of years did so by either having very little contact with the outside world, or by turning every last aspect of the culture into a religious fetish (I'm looking at you, Orthodox Judaism...).

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Postby martinburo » 10 Jan 2009 17:33

But i distinctly remember leto talking about "reverting" humanity back in a lot of ways


Like this?
"This morning I was born in a yurt at the edge of a horse-plain in a land of a planet which no longer exists. Tomorrow I will be born someone else in another place. II have not yet chosen. This morning, though-ahhh, this life! When my eyes had learned to focus, I looked out at sunshine on trampled grass and I saw vigorous people going about the sweet activities of their lives. Where... oh where has all of that vigor gone?"

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back to the OP

Postby mrpsbrk » 15 Jan 2009 22:13

Going way back to the first post, sorry if this is too disruptive, but... And, Omphalos, i hope i don't sound criticizing and stuff. But cutting to the chase:

O> One of FH's points, I think, is that the form of
O> government and the religous-like implications of the
O> Butlerian Jihad really put the kibosh on development of
O> technology, which in turn effectively ended the
O> development and maturation of the species into something
O> else.

Geez... Do you really think technology has anything to do at all with the GP? I mean:

Leto scowled at Luyseyal, knowing he could only add to their confusion. "I point out to you, Marcus Claire Luyseyal, a lesson from past over-machined societies which you appear not to have learned. The devices themselves condition the users to employ each other the way they employ machines."


On the same passage (too long, but if you please i can paste it whole...) Leto seems to imply that he chose to not void the prohibition on technology, but that it was only a choice, not really something he could not do. I mean, if it was at all about technology... it would be simpler.

After that, you do go in many directions at once:

O> Part of doing this necessarily means the expansion of
O> competition to make vital goods more readily available,

Would you say that the GP is primarily an economic agenda, then? Both the technology take and this seem to imply that the GP deals primarily with the way-of-life of this civilization, in a quantitative sense. Like, do you think Leto's intention was a sustained growth of production?

O> and to get development of new and necessary products
O> going again,

The same...

O> the founding of governmental institutions that would be
O> capable of dealing with mega-scale threats,

Again, the quantitative thing. The main issue here is size? Quantity?

I didn't find the quote, but has not Our Lord said something like "against infinity any quantity is a small quantity"?

O> the consolidation of authority so that humanity would
O> act as one (or as close to this as possible),

Now this sounds exactly contrary to what the GP was supposed to be. If the Scattering has anything at all to do with it, it is supposed to make humanity act as more than one, like an umpredictable mix.

O> and the breeding of indivuduals with the will, power and
O> abilities to combat an enhanced enemy.

Maybe the breeding of remarkable individuals, but... against, like, one enemy? No, i don't see that in the GP at all. I think it is more on the lines of being open to whatever comes, if it is an enemy, deal with it, but maybe there are two bad guys, or three or 764... Who knows? I do not think the GP is actually against anything, but more akin to a building of something...

O> I mean, look at the state of things when Paul came along.

I take from that you imply that our present world is safe from the threats Leto would be foreseeing? Like: "we are not feudal, haha, we are so much better than this galaxy-spaning Padisha Empire"?

Or, as supposedly the Dune Universe is a future-earth thing, that FH was actually proposing that there will be an de-evolution from now on? Like, i mean, FH saying evolution walks backward???? I just don't see it.

O> So I guess in summary I would say that it is best not to
O> think of the Golden Path as a static, inflexible line
O> from Point A to Point B.

I agree with that, but i really do seem to take your description as a tad linear...

O> I know that many of you disagree with this complex a
O> view of the GP.

Well, i think the GP is MORE complex than that...

O> This would generally re-open the human mind to different
O> possibilities

That's more like it. I like that you point to the fact that whatever was the aim of the GP a LOT of factors and systems would have to be coordinated. And i also think that it's supposed to also have economic implications.

But, on the end, i feel that to understand the GP we must really understand it as Frank's preaching. More than just a plot, a tale of micromanaging an empire, but in fact a commentary on our worldviews and also a commentary on our present world. Like, i think FH largely saw his present world (and that he would see our present world) as pretty feudal...

If i had to put into words what i think it the general attitude the GP tries to create, it would be something like: "to take the universe as infinite a priori -- when you find limits, deal with them, but before it just assume there are no limits!" Or in the words of the old guy with the oversized moustache:

Free, dost thou call thyself? Thy ruling thought would I hear of, and not that thou hast escaped from a yoke.
Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)

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Postby mrpsbrk » 15 Jan 2009 22:19

Or, to sum up all my arguments:

If the GP is about technology and goods and management... why HoD and Ch:D take place in the old Empire's core instead of on the scattered worlds (where all the good-stuf(TM) from technology and production and breeding and chaotic organization are)?????
Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons ;-)