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    Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Aug 2011 15:05

    Freakzilla wrote:First of all, the KH is, by definition, male. The giver cannot withstand the force that takes. As ToE said, dominant malignant male ancestors will always possess a RM who accessess those OMs. This is why the KH had to be male.


    Right - for clarification of my post, I'm saying that Alia is in my opinion what would happen if you tried to create the female equivalent of a KH (EDIT: and what I mean by that, is a KH by the new definition of KH based upon Paul, not on the original definition which would just be gibberish since the KH was basically to be a male RM). She's clearly above and beyond the average RM's capabilities, but also not stable due to the problem with male OM.

    Am I correct in my statement above that the issue of male/female OM is not actually one of access per-say, it's more an issue of the danger of attempting to access the male? I always got the impression in the books that if an RM was dumb enough she could totally choose to look into male OM, it would just destroy her.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Aug 2011 15:20

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:Am I correct in my statement above that the issue of male/female OM is not actually one of access per-say, it's more an issue of the danger of attempting to access the male? I always got the impression in the books that if an RM was dumb enough she could totally choose to look into male OM, it would just destroy her.


    I agree completely.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby SandRider » 22 Aug 2011 16:58

    what I was thinking was that the Witches ultimate goal would have been a Reverend Mother that could look into
    "that place they dared not" ....
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Aug 2011 17:06

    SandRider wrote:what I was thinking was that the Witches ultimate goal would have been a Reverend Mother that could look into
    "that place they dared not" ....


    There's nothing to really use as evidence against you on that, but I don't think there's anything for you either - I'm guessing this is more gut-reaction and speculation on your part, or was there something in the text that lead you to that idea?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the idea, seems totally like something the BG would attempt, I'm just not familiar with anything in the books that would have hinted at this idea.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Aug 2011 17:13

    SandRider wrote:what I was thinking was that the Witches ultimate goal would have been a Reverend Mother that could look into
    "that place they dared not" ....


    I imagine they thought of that before the KH breeding program, tried, got a bunch of abominations, decided to go with a male for that reason.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Aug 2011 17:16

    Freakzilla wrote:
    SandRider wrote:what I was thinking was that the Witches ultimate goal would have been a Reverend Mother that could look into
    "that place they dared not" ....


    I imagine they thought of that before the KH breeding program, tried, got a bunch of abominations, decided to go with a male for that reason.


    I think what SR is saying though is that he thinks they would have eventually taken the breeding program in a new direction after they got their KH, perhaps trying to breed the characteristic that allows males to look into both sides of OM into a female, thus allowing them to return to being an all female group female equivalents to KH's.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Aug 2011 17:22

    Bull-Dyke KH?

    (I seriously didn't know what I expected when I did a google image search for "bull-dyke nun" but it wasn't that! :shock: I've discovered a whole new genre of pr0n.)
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Aug 2011 17:26

    One thing that gets the wheels turning in my head that FH totally missed out on (probably due to the times) was transgender OM capabilities. Now we're into full blown speculation land, but I would think that a female body with a male mind would be full capable of being a proper KH under FH's rules, and might fit the BG criteria for a "female" KH. (Not really female though, as a transgendered person would be technically considered to be the gender of the mind, not the body)

    Total speculation, but trans-gender fascinates me and seems somewhat relevant if we're talking about a "female KH" at all.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Aug 2011 17:36

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:One thing that gets the wheels turning in my head that FH totally missed out on (probably due to the times) was transgender OM capabilities. Now we're into full blown speculation land, but I would think that a female body with a male mind would be full capable of being a proper KH under FH's rules, and might fit the BG criteria for a "female" KH. (Not really female though, as a transgendered person would be technically considered to be the gender of the mind, not the body)

    Total speculation, but trans-gender fascinates me and seems somewhat relevant if we're talking about a "female KH" at all.


    I was afraid to ask how you would accomplish that. Sounds like possession to me! :P

    I think the ulta-ultimate goal would be men and women who could access both sides.

    But I think when you put a male mind into a female body you're losing the point of the sisterhood.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Aug 2011 17:45

    How about a Reverend Face Dancer? :think:

    Pretty much what Marty and Daniel were, no?
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Aug 2011 17:49

    Freakzilla wrote:I think the ulta-ultimate goal would be men and women who could access both sides.

    But I think when you put a male mind into a female body you're losing the point of the sisterhood.


    I agree, the mind is the mind. My point was that they wouldn't even have to breed for it necessarily, once they had a KH they could just keep breeding as many KH's as possible, and statistically someone is going to eventually have a transgendered "daughter".

    Does totally defeat their whole women-only thing though.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Aug 2011 17:51

    Freakzilla wrote:How about a Reverend Face Dancer? :think:

    Pretty much what Marty and Daniel were, no?


    I'll have to look at the passages in question, off the top of my head I'm not sure whether they had OM access (either for 1 half or both halves), or if they just had the memories of those specific people they'd assimilated.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Aug 2011 17:53

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:How about a Reverend Face Dancer? :think:

    Pretty much what Marty and Daniel were, no?


    I'll have to look at the passages in question, off the top of my head I'm not sure whether they had OM access (either for 1 half or both halves), or if they just had the memories of those specific people they'd assimilated.


    They had mentats, too.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby lukecash12 » 22 Aug 2011 19:44

    Freakzilla wrote:
    SandRider wrote:what I was thinking was that the Witches ultimate goal would have been a Reverend Mother that could look into
    "that place they dared not" ....


    I imagine they thought of that before the KH breeding program, tried, got a bunch of abominations, decided to go with a male for that reason.


    I would suggest, that given the BG's idea of abominations and how central this imperative is within their dogma that an abomination (female with full OM) is reprehensible, that they were exhaustive enough to draw a hard, straight line over the issue. I'm in the same boat as you, because the BG don't tend to draw hard, straight lines unless it really resonates with them.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby lukecash12 » 22 Aug 2011 19:47

    Freakzilla wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:How about a Reverend Face Dancer? :think:

    Pretty much what Marty and Daniel were, no?


    I'll have to look at the passages in question, off the top of my head I'm not sure whether they had OM access (either for 1 half or both halves), or if they just had the memories of those specific people they'd assimilated.


    They had mentats, too.


    The Tleilaxu had everything, so far as I can tell. Actually, Scytale's claim of his people having made a KH and how they took care of him, would make for an interesting discussion. But this may be a redundant topic. Have you guys gone over Scytale's claim from Dune Messiah in detail?
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Aug 2011 20:37

    lukecash12 wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:How about a Reverend Face Dancer? :think:

    Pretty much what Marty and Daniel were, no?


    I'll have to look at the passages in question, off the top of my head I'm not sure whether they had OM access (either for 1 half or both halves), or if they just had the memories of those specific people they'd assimilated.


    They had mentats, too.


    The Tleilaxu had everything, so far as I can tell. Actually, Scytale's claim of his people having made a KH and how they took care of him, would make for an interesting discussion. But this may be a redundant topic. Have you guys gone over Scytale's claim from Dune Messiah in detail?


    Yeah, we've beat Scytale to death for lots of things.

    But that doesn't mean we can't do it agian! Start a topic here: viewforum.php?f=4
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Smiley » 26 Nov 2014 16:41

    I was recently thinking that the BG's aversion to prescience later on came from the fact that their goal blew up in their faces. Until then they did not fully comprehend the forces they were meddling with and now avoid it all together. Now Leto II wanted humanity to not want to be under the thumb of super beings and resist the want of them. The BG maybe take this a bit far. It's like they caused a grease fire and instead of learning to be more careful with the stove they (for the most part) want to lock everyone out of the kitchen.
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