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    Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

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    Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby lukecash12 » 10 Aug 2011 04:14

    It's not as if the BG had anything of a qualified understanding of the prescience trap, of ancestral memory, or of counterfactuals and heavily extended political consequences; So, are the BG then the ultimate hypocrites for resenting and wishing to work against Paul and Leto II, who were more manipulative simply because they were capable of it?

    Let's not forget that the BG shun their own "humanity" (or it may be more appropriate to say the aesthetic value of limitations and familiar/standardized human experiences), but they have an aversion to Leto II who was "guilty" of a magnified version of the same thing. They breed the human race they want, but they shun Leto II's Golden Path.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 10 Aug 2011 06:11

    lukecash12 wrote:It's not as if the BG had anything of a qualified understanding of the prescience trap, of ancestral memory, or of counterfactuals and heavily extended political consequences;


    Excuse me? I'm not sure we're talking about the same Bene Gesserit.

    So, are the BG then the ultimate hypocrites for resenting and wishing to work against Paul and Leto II, who were more manipulative simply because they were capable of it?


    You really think that was Paul and Leto's motivation, because they could?

    Let's not forget that the BG shun their own "humanity" (or it may be more appropriate to say the aesthetic value of limitations and familiar/standardized human experiences), but they have an aversion to Leto II who was "guilty" of a magnified version of the same thing.


    I think everyone but Hwi had an aversion to him.

    They breed the human race they want, but they shun Leto II's Golden Path.


    He was abomination, how do we know the GP is not just a bigger prescient trap?
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby lotek » 10 Aug 2011 07:02

    lukecash12 wrote:It's not as if the BG had anything of a qualified understanding of the prescience trap, of ancestral memory, or of counterfactuals and heavily extended political consequences; So, are the BG then the ultimate hypocrites for resenting and wishing to work against Paul and Leto II, who were more manipulative simply because they were capable of it?

    Let's not forget that the BG shun their own "humanity" (or it may be more appropriate to say the aesthetic value of limitations and familiar/standardized human experiences), but they have an aversion to Leto II who was "guilty" of a magnified version of the same thing. They breed the human race they want, but they shun Leto II's Golden Path.


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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Not_Your_Friend » 10 Aug 2011 11:02

    Freakzilla wrote:
    lukecash12 wrote:So, are the BG then the ultimate hypocrites for resenting and wishing to work against Paul and Leto II, who were more manipulative simply because they were capable of it?

    You really think that was Paul and Leto's motivation, because they could?


    I think the point he was trying to make is not a 'because they could' motivation, but that the BG are only less manipulative than Paul and Leto II because they weren't as powerful.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 10 Aug 2011 12:03

    Not_Your_Friend wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    lukecash12 wrote:So, are the BG then the ultimate hypocrites for resenting and wishing to work against Paul and Leto II, who were more manipulative simply because they were capable of it?

    You really think that was Paul and Leto's motivation, because they could?


    I think the point he was trying to make is not a 'because they could' motivation, but that the BG are only less manipulative than Paul and Leto II because they weren't as powerful.


    Yes, but that is not why the BG were against Paul and Leto. They were against Paul because he was a tyrant who slaughtered billions and against Leto because people didn't need the BGs political expertise under his reign.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Aug 2011 12:47

    The BG had a deep understanding of Ancestral Memory and political consequences over extremely long periods, look at the Missionaria Protectiva - not really sure where you were going with those.

    But yes, I do agree that they failed to really grasp what Leto II did for them in the later books.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 10 Aug 2011 13:10

    Even if Leto's GP was "right" it was out of their control and I think that is what essentially scared them about it.

    As with every report preceding this one, we must address the Lord Leto's
    prescience. There is no doubt that his ability to predict future events, an
    oracular ability much more powerful than that of any ancestor, is still the
    mainstay of his political control.

    We do not defy it!

    It is our belief that he knows every important action we take far in advance of
    the event. We guide ourselves, therefore, by the rule that we will not knowingly
    threaten either his person or such of his grand plan as we can discern. Our
    address to him will continue to be:

    "Tell us if we threaten you that we may desist."

    And:

    "Tell us of your grand plan that we may help."

    He has provided no new answers to either question during this period.

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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Aug 2011 13:12

    Hard to say for sure though whether that was actually what they felt, or if that was them apeasing him in an attempt to simply survive his rule. Probably a bit of both honestly, knowing them and knowing FH.

    I did get the impression in the later books though that they never did really understand the Golden Path. I could be wrong about that though, it's been a while since I've read those two.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Not_Your_Friend » 10 Aug 2011 13:15

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Not_Your_Friend wrote:Yes, but that is not why the BG were against Paul and Leto. They were against Paul because he was a tyrant who slaughtered billions and against Leto because people didn't need the BGs political expertise under his reign.


    Those are both part of it, but too simplistic I think. For all the BG's long term planning and deep thinking, they appear to be very childish in thinking that they are the only ones who know what humanity needs.

    With Paul they were just bitter that 'their' KH was out of their control. The fact that he threw everything back in their faces, stared out at them from the dark place and took his own road had as much to do with any other reason they were against him.

    For Leto, even a millenia and a half wasn't enough time for the BG to understand the sacrifices He made for humanity. He was still just 'The Tyrant.' His strict monopoly on spice distribution probably made the BG think that He was attemping to suffocate them into being merely Museum BG.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby lotek » 10 Aug 2011 13:17

    Not_Your_Friend wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Not_Your_Friend wrote:Yes, but that is not why the BG were against Paul and Leto. They were against Paul because he was a tyrant who slaughtered billions and against Leto because people didn't need the BGs political expertise under his reign.


    Those are both part of it, but too simplistic I think. For all the BG's long term planning and deep thinking, they appear to be very childish in thinking that they are the only ones who know what humanity needs.

    With Paul they were just bitter that 'their' KH was out of their control. The fact that he threw everything back in their faces, stared out at them from the dark place and took his own road had as much to do with any other reason they were against him.

    For Leto, even a millenia and a half wasn't enough time for the BG to understand the sacrifices He made for humanity. He was still just 'The Tyrant.' His strict monopoly on spice distribution probably made the BG think that He was attemping to suffocate them into being merely Museum BG.


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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 10 Aug 2011 13:58

    Not_Your_Friend wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Yes, but that is not why the BG were against Paul and Leto. They were against Paul because he was a tyrant who slaughtered billions and against Leto because people didn't need the BGs political expertise under his reign.


    Those are both part of it, but too simplistic I think. For all the BG's long term planning and deep thinking, they appear to be very childish in thinking that they are the only ones who know what humanity needs.

    With Paul they were just bitter that 'their' KH was out of their control. The fact that he threw everything back in their faces, stared out at them from the dark place and took his own road had as much to do with any other reason they were against him.

    For Leto, even a millenia and a half wasn't enough time for the BG to understand the sacrifices He made for humanity. He was still just 'The Tyrant.' His strict monopoly on spice distribution probably made the BG think that He was attemping to suffocate them into being merely Museum BG.


    I think you underestimate the BG.

    Yes, I'm sure Paul hurt their pride but I think you assume they were doing what they were doing "for the sake of humanity". I think the point of the KH was for the BG to seize power and step out from behind the scenes. Only THEN could they concentrate unhindered on shepherding humanity.

    The BG obvioulsy knew Leto had a grand plan and the fact that he spared them at all indicated that they would have an important role to play in it.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Not_Your_Friend » 10 Aug 2011 14:29

    lotek wrote:you need to learn to quote.


    Wow. I know, right? I swear I have it figured out on other forums.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Not_Your_Friend » 10 Aug 2011 14:37

    Freakzilla wrote:I think you underestimate the BG.

    Yes, I'm sure Paul hurt their pride but I think you assume they were doing what they were doing "for the sake of humanity". I think the point of the KH was for the BG to seize power and step out from behind the scenes. Only THEN could they concentrate unhindered on shepherding humanity.


    I'm not sure I understand. Were they not doing things for the sake of humanity, or were they trying to shepherd it?

    Freakzilla wrote:The BG obvioulsy knew Leto had a grand plan and the fact that he spared them at all indicated that they would have an important role to play in it.


    It still didn't stop them from single-mindedly thinking him nothing more than a tyrant, and cursing Jessica's name for giving birth to Paul and starting the whole thing.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 10 Aug 2011 15:54

    Not_Your_Friend wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:I think you underestimate the BG.

    Yes, I'm sure Paul hurt their pride but I think you assume they were doing what they were doing "for the sake of humanity". I think the point of the KH was for the BG to seize power and step out from behind the scenes. Only THEN could they concentrate unhindered on shepherding humanity.


    I'm not sure I understand. Were they not doing things for the sake of humanity, or were they trying to shepherd it?


    What do you think their intention for the KH was? The imperial throne, of course.

    When my father, the Padishah Emperor, heard of Duke Leto's death and the manner
    of it, he went into such a rage as we had never before seen. He blamed my mother
    and the compact forced on him to place a Bene Gesserit on the throne...

    ~Dune

    Not_Your_Friend wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:The BG obvioulsy knew Leto had a grand plan and the fact that he spared them at all indicated that they would have an important role to play in it.


    It still didn't stop them from single-mindedly thinking him nothing more than a tyrant, and cursing Jessica's name for giving birth to Paul and starting the whole thing.


    I don't undestand why you think they thought so simply of Leto II.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Not_Your_Friend » 10 Aug 2011 16:14

    Freakzilla wrote:What do you think their intention for the KH was? The imperial throne, of course.


    They didn't need a KH for the throne. They could have taken the throne at any time through manipulations. The KH could always come later.

    Freakzilla wrote:I don't undestand why you think they thought so simply of Leto II.


    Admittedly it's been a few years since I read Heretics and Chapterhouse, but there didn't seem to all that much understanding that he had made an huge sacrifice for the GP; just 'Tyrant' this and cursing Jessica that. It wasn't until Odrade finds the message that there finally appears to be an understanding that there was something bigger at stake than the BG and their petty spice rations, and even then it was grudgingly.

    Like that annoying bitch Siona, "Wah, I understand the Golden Path now but I still hate you because you're mean, wah."
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Ampoliros » 10 Aug 2011 16:16

    A single BG might not see it, but a full reverend mother, especially the inner circle had an inkling of what it was to be Leto II

    Leto II is equivalent to the BG as a whole. While they might not fully understand what it meant, I think because of their unique position they could conceptualize what it was like.

    I'm certain that they respected the difference.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 10 Aug 2011 16:38

    Ampoliros wrote:A single BG might not see it, but a full reverend mother, especially the inner circle had an inkling of what it was to be Leto II

    Leto II is equivalent to the BG as a whole. While they might not fully understand what it meant, I think because of their unique position they could conceptualize what it was like.

    I'm certain that they respected the difference.


    More accurately, I'd say the BG as a whole were equal to less than half a Leto since no RM had male ancestral memories.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Ampoliros » 10 Aug 2011 17:52

    That and they didn't have prescience anywhere near what Leto had.

    Hence the qualification that they could conceptualize Leto without fully understanding him. They were well aware of most of what differentiated them from him. Perhaps I should have said 'similar' rather than equivalent.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby merkin muffley » 10 Aug 2011 18:43

    lukecash12 wrote:It's not as if the BG had anything of a qualified understanding of the prescience trap, of ancestral memory, or of counterfactuals and heavily extended political consequences; So, are the BG then the ultimate hypocrites for resenting and wishing to work against Paul and Leto II, who were more manipulative simply because they were capable of it?

    Let's not forget that the BG shun their own "humanity" (or it may be more appropriate to say the aesthetic value of limitations and familiar/standardized human experiences), but they have an aversion to Leto II who was "guilty" of a magnified version of the same thing. They breed the human race they want, but they shun Leto II's Golden Path.


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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby SadisticCynic » 10 Aug 2011 19:11

    I think Not_Your_Friend is right that the BG didn't have much fondness for Paul or Leto, but it wasn't that they hated Leto's goals so much as hated having control of their own organisation removed from them.

    We should remember also that some factions (if not all) of the BG are deathly afraid of even the hint of a suggestion of a KH returning. That would have to have some explanation i.e. the complete disruption he could wreak on the BG.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby SandChigger » 10 Aug 2011 22:31

    lukecash12 wrote:It's not as if the BG had anything of a qualified understanding of the prescience trap, of ancestral memory, or of counterfactuals and heavily extended political consequences; So, are the BG then the ultimate hypocrites for resenting and wishing to work against Paul and Leto II, who were more manipulative simply because they were capable of it?

    Let's not forget that the BG shun their own "humanity" (or it may be more appropriate to say the aesthetic value of limitations and familiar/standardized human experiences), but they have an aversion to Leto II who was "guilty" of a magnified version of the same thing. They breed the human race they want, but they shun Leto II's Golden Path.

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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby lukecash12 » 10 Aug 2011 23:04

    Not_Your_Friend wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    lukecash12 wrote:So, are the BG then the ultimate hypocrites for resenting and wishing to work against Paul and Leto II, who were more manipulative simply because they were capable of it?

    You really think that was Paul and Leto's motivation, because they could?


    I think the point he was trying to make is not a 'because they could' motivation, but that the BG are only less manipulative than Paul and Leto II because they weren't as powerful.


    Precisely. The BG were hypocritical, which is what this thread is about. I can certainly agree with all of you that the BG had a whole bunch of reasons to dislike Leto II, but the fact remains that they were hypocrites. However much of an abomination he was, they would have done the same. Leto II was the perfect expression of their ideology, that he was willing to do anything and outlast anything for the survival and propogation of humanity.

    Don't forget that the BG's own Golden Path created a class of barbaric people called the Landsraad.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby SandChigger » 11 Aug 2011 04:44

    lukecash12 wrote:Don't forget that the BG's own Golden Path created a class of barbaric people called the Landsraad.

    :laughing:
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Serkanner » 11 Aug 2011 04:53

    lukecash12 wrote:Don't forget that the BG's own Golden Path created a class of barbaric people called the Landsraad.


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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby lotek » 11 Aug 2011 06:45

    lukecash12 wrote:Precisely. The BG were hypocritical, which is what this thread is about. I can certainly agree with all of you that the BG had a whole bunch of reasons to dislike Leto II, but the fact remains that they were hypocrites. However much of an abomination he was, they would have done the same. Leto II was the perfect expression of their ideology, that he was willing to do anything and outlast anything for the survival and propogation of humanity.


    that was good

    lukecash12 wrote:Don't forget that the BG's own Golden Path created a class of barbaric people called the Landsraad.


    that was bad
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