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    Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 18 Aug 2011 20:57

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Well, you know, this was the reason the were breeding for the KH, so he could see the big picture that they could only see less than half of.


    Why "less than half" rather than just half? I'm under the impression the BG did not know they were going to get a prescient out of the KH.


    Appendix III: Report on Bene Gesserit Motives and Purposes

    ...

    The Bene Gesserit program had as its target the breeding of a person they
    labeled "Kwisatz Haderach," a term signifying "one who can be many places at
    once." In simpler terms, what they sought was a human with mental powers
    permitting him to understand and use higher order dimensions.
    They were breeding for a super-Mentat, a human computer with some of the
    prescient abilities found in Guild navigators. Now, attend these facts
    carefully:
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 18 Aug 2011 21:00

    ...and "less than half" because the goal of the KH program was a MALE with both feminine and masculine OM.

    Having OM of both the paternal AND maternal side is obviously worth more than just twice the female side... or the KH wouldn't be such a big deal... see Paul and Leto.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 18 Aug 2011 21:20

    Freakzilla wrote:...and "less than half" because the goal of the KH program was a MALE with both feminine and masculine OM.

    Having OM of both the paternal AND maternal side is obviously worth more than just twice the female side... or the KH wouldn't be such a big deal... see Paul and Leto.


    Right, forgot the super-mentat business. I don't think the having the OM of both maternal and paternal would realistically be worth much more than having just half, though I suppose seeing the whole picture tells you a lot more than just double-half the picture, so maybe I'm underestimating that.

    Frankly I think Paul and Leto would have been just about as powerful even had they been missing one half of the OM, obviously it's a big deal, but Leto could have pulled off his hive-mind with just half-OM and they both would have still been mentats who could see the future.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 18 Aug 2011 21:29

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:...and "less than half" because the goal of the KH program was a MALE with both feminine and masculine OM.

    Having OM of both the paternal AND maternal side is obviously worth more than just twice the female side... or the KH wouldn't be such a big deal... see Paul and Leto.


    Right, forgot the super-mentat business. I don't think the having the OM of both maternal and paternal would realistically be worth much more than having just half, though I suppose seeing the whole picture tells you a lot more than just double-half the picture, so maybe I'm underestimating that.

    Frankly I think Paul and Leto would have been just about as powerful even had they been missing one half of the OM, obviously it's a big deal, but Leto could have pulled off his hive-mind with just half-OM and they both would have still been mentats who could see the future.


    Others may disagree but I think having both M and F OM increases the power of prescience. That's what the BG didn't expect.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Nekhrun » 18 Aug 2011 22:15

    Freakzilla wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:...and "less than half" because the goal of the KH program was a MALE with both feminine and masculine OM.

    Having OM of both the paternal AND maternal side is obviously worth more than just twice the female side... or the KH wouldn't be such a big deal... see Paul and Leto.


    Right, forgot the super-mentat business. I don't think the having the OM of both maternal and paternal would realistically be worth much more than having just half, though I suppose seeing the whole picture tells you a lot more than just double-half the picture, so maybe I'm underestimating that.

    Frankly I think Paul and Leto would have been just about as powerful even had they been missing one half of the OM, obviously it's a big deal, but Leto could have pulled off his hive-mind with just half-OM and they both would have still been mentats who could see the future.


    Others may disagree but I think having both M and F OM increases the power of prescience. That's what the BG didn't expect.

    It also might be worth noting that having access to male memories would give you more access to most of human history that has been so male dominated. Women have historically been left out of the decision making and power structures. In a lot of ways they still are.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 18 Aug 2011 23:57

    Freakzilla wrote:Others may disagree but I think having both M and F OM increases the power of prescience. That's what the BG didn't expect.


    I don't dissagree, I just don't think the BG were expecting prescience at all.

    Nekhrun wrote:It also might be worth noting that having access to male memories would give you more access to most of human history that has been so male dominated. Women have historically been left out of the decision making and power structures. In a lot of ways they still are.


    I was half toying with that thought, trying to muse how much the historical women would and wouldn't have known, and while I'd bet they knew a lot more (and currently know a lot more, because I agree they're still largely left out of power structures) than one might expect, I definitely agree with you on this point, there's a lot of extra information about the inner workings of a lot of what's gone on in our history that women just wouldn't have had access to, not first hand access anyways.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby SandChigger » 19 Aug 2011 07:05

    Freakzilla wrote:Others may disagree

    :dance:

    but I think having both M and F OM increases the power of prescience.

    Increases? Isn't that a bit of toning down of your position till now? :think:
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 19 Aug 2011 09:47

    SandChigger wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Others may disagree

    :dance:

    but I think having both M and F OM increases the power of prescience.

    Increases? Isn't that a bit of toning down of your position till now? :think:


    Let us consider, the confessed goal of the breeding program was a male BG with both feminine and masculine ancestral memories. Why? Because female ancestral memories are the real source of BG power, naturally having both would make them more powerfull, even if it didn't amplify prescience.

    We also know from the appendix that they were trying to endow their KH with some of the powers of a guild navigator as well as a mentat.

    Obviously they got more than they bargained for with Paul, whos prescience was greater than that of guild navigators.

    What were the variables with Paul that were unknown to the BG? The spice and full ancestral memory.

    It is my position that access to full OM through converting the WoL combined with mentat training and Paul's natural prescience were all factors that amplified Paul's prescience orders of magnitude beyond what the BG expected.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby SandChigger » 19 Aug 2011 11:30

    Ever sift sand through a screen? ;)
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby lukecash12 » 19 Aug 2011 17:14

    Ever sift sand through a screen? ;)


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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby inhuien » 20 Aug 2011 05:13

    I wonder what, if anything the BG had planned for the offspring of their KH, more of the same or a continuing series of refinement.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby SandChigger » 20 Aug 2011 10:42

    lukecash12 wrote:
    Ever sift sand through a screen? ;)


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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby SandRider » 20 Aug 2011 11:16

    inhuien wrote:I wonder what, if anything the BG had planned for the offspring of their KH, more of the same or a continuing series of refinement.


    that's a good point .... a female kwisatz haderach ?
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby SadisticCynic » 20 Aug 2011 11:29

    SandRider wrote:
    inhuien wrote:I wonder what, if anything the BG had planned for the offspring of their KH, more of the same or a continuing series of refinement.


    that's a good point .... a female kwisatz haderach ?


    :think: Wouldn't that have been fundamentally impossible given the Giver/Taker ideas explored at the beginnning of Dune?

    Or perhaps not impossible, but improbable since Alia had her male ancestry in her OM and it drove her insane.

    But then I think again, and realise Ghani should have been in the same position, no? She was nearly overcome by Chani's shade, but the hypnosis trick allowed her to develop her own personality separately and resist possession.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby SandChigger » 21 Aug 2011 05:47

    If a female KH were possible, wouldn't they have aimed for that from the start instead? :think:

    Just saying.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 21 Aug 2011 06:10

    SandChigger wrote:If a female KH were possible, wouldn't they have aimed for that from the start instead? :think:

    Just saying.



    Society being what it was, what it had been, and what it was likely to be for the foreseeable future... it may be that they needed a male to carry out their plans. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wheren't they stuck in a backward feudal society where men ran the show? Just a thought.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby SandChigger » 21 Aug 2011 06:22

    That's accurate so far as the part about putting the KH on the throne and pulling the strings (more directly) from behind the scenes... :think:
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby SadisticCynic » 21 Aug 2011 08:42

    My first thought is this:

    They where deathly afraid of Abomination; look at Alia. They probably didn't know that developing a self, separate from OM personas, is a possible solution.

    But then that only applies to those born to full OM awareness...

    Perhaps a better question is, is Alia a Kwisatz Haderach? She has the ancestral memories and the prescience.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby inhuien » 21 Aug 2011 08:58

    ^^^ But not the native mentat training, which may have made all the difference.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby SadisticCynic » 21 Aug 2011 14:08

    In fact I was going to mention that, but I don't think Leto had the training either. He could have taught himself from ancestral memories maybe; is there any mention of such a thing?
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby D Pope » 21 Aug 2011 16:41

    Yes, the BG in Chapterhouse. The gal from the punisment planet who had the offer of a meeting from the HM.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby SadisticCynic » 21 Aug 2011 17:06

    :) Sorry, I didn't mean teaching oneself from OM, I knew that. I meant Leto teaching himself Mentat training.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 21 Aug 2011 21:59

    SadisticCynic wrote:My first thought is this:

    They where deathly afraid of Abomination; look at Alia. They probably didn't know that developing a self, separate from OM personas, is a possible solution.

    But then that only applies to those born to full OM awareness...

    Perhaps a better question is, is Alia a Kwisatz Haderach? She has the ancestral memories and the prescience.


    I would say yes, she is what a female KH would be in FH's Dune universe. I didn't make the rules, he did, and he says females cannot handle male OM, end of story, it leads to abomination. I agree that a male KH makes sense from a political point of view, but it's more than that for sure - my interpretation of what FH wrote isn't that RM's don't have access to male OM, they just don't dare to look there because it will consume them. What made Alia different is that since she had OM from when she was in the womb, I don't think she ever had the option to not look there, and thus was doomed from the start.

    The lack of mentat training maybe disqualifies her as female-KH, but someone with better memory could better quote whether it ever says for sure whether she does or does not have access to mentat training in her OM... if FH even brings it up at all.

    SadisticCynic wrote:In fact I was going to mention that, but I don't think Leto had the training either. He could have taught himself from ancestral memories maybe; is there any mention of such a thing?


    He didn't, but that doesn't matter, he was Paul, in a very major way. Once someone in OM has the training sure anyone could learn it that had access to OM, but I Let II's experience was different, because like Alia he had OM from before birth... he didn't have to learn from Paul, he partially was Paul.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Aug 2011 09:04

    First of all, the KH is, by definition, male. The giver cannot withstand the force that takes. As ToE said, dominant malignant male ancestors will always possess a RM who accessess those OMs. This is why the KH had to be male.

    Re Leto and mentat abilities, he had Paul's memories of memtat training. It's not like he'd have to re-train himself, he's already experienced it... and everything else.
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    Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Aug 2011 12:19

    More on Mentats:

    As he accumulated observations of Bellonda, he came to appreciate a viewpoint of
    those great Mentat Masters who had taught him. "Reverend Mothers do not make
    the best Mentats."

    No Bene Gesserit appeared capable of completely removing herself from that
    binding absolute she achieved in the Spice Agony: loyalty to her Sisterhood.

    ~CH:D
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