• Register
  • Login
  •          

    Computer Program Simulating Leto's Prescience

    Image
      Post your own creative writing

    Moderators: Omphalos, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ

    Re: Computer Program Simulating Leto's Prescience

    Postby lotek » 17 Feb 2012 09:55

    would the first, by using the continuum thinking of humans, be able to also predict their actions, actions that can't be calculated ?
    So you could predict/calculate the course of a guildship travelling along celestial bodies that obey complex laws of physics, but the same calculator wouldn't be able to for example navigate a busy street of people because there would be too many decisions taken by the human "randomness".

    In fact, could it be that the core of the butlerian jihad lies there, by surrendering their thinking to machines, humans became less than humans, as in they lost the randomness. The more they became more susceptible to calculation the more they lost their humanity.

    nb: apologies if this point has already been made, which it's most likely have, but I also have a job to do ^^
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
    User avatar
    lotek
     
    Posts: 5734
    Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

    Re: Computer Program Simulating Leto's Prescience

    Postby D Pope » 17 Feb 2012 10:16

    You could be on to something there, Frank did write something like,"Societies that rely too heavily on machines tend to use humans like machines." ( I know that's just the idea, if it's important, Freak'll straighten me out. )

    I remember thinking about timeclocks the first time I read it, your thoughts push mine in a new direction.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
    -Omphalos
    D Pope
     
    Posts: 1500
    Joined: 14 May 2010 14:11
    Location: Grubville

    Re: Computer Program Simulating Leto's Prescience

    Postby lotek » 17 Feb 2012 10:35

    well there must be a reason other than stupid skynet to explain the Butlerian Jihad (BJ Image, how come it feels I never saw this before ?).

    And it has to fit in with the Golden Path and the Scattering.

    In fact, maybe Leto II was there to free humans from prediction just like the BJ was there to free them from calculation ?
    Then it kinda ties up with the "not following blindly a charismatic leader", who also takes away free will from people by showing them the right direction ?
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
    User avatar
    lotek
     
    Posts: 5734
    Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

    Re: Computer Program Simulating Leto's Prescience

    Postby Freakzilla » 17 Feb 2012 11:12

    Why else do you think he bred for the Siona Gene and promoted Ixian research on the no-field?
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 17991
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Re: Computer Program Simulating Leto's Prescience

    Postby lotek » 17 Feb 2012 11:40

    Nah this part I got quite easily, since it's detailed enough in GEoD, but I was more confused about the butlerian jihad, since there is a lot less information on it.
    I see it looks like I stumbled on an evidence the way I said it, but I was just trying to make a parallel between prediction and calculation. As we have more info on prediction as a whole, applying the model of the reason of the GP to freeing humans from machine thinking could have helped.
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
    User avatar
    lotek
     
    Posts: 5734
    Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

    Re: Computer Program Simulating Leto's Prescience

    Postby NotOnasander » 25 Feb 2012 02:10

    I hate it when a troll thread of mine turns legit, your ruin'in my mojo. :cat fight:

    Fuck....

    Yes it was but the Navigator's prescience what linear and limited whereas Leto's was multilinear and multilooped.





    No, Leto wasn't both multi linear and multilooped over that of a navigator's prescience. Navigators worked on a system not too different from Jomini's Art of War, where the logic was stacked on a theory of friction RESULTING from movement between relative points, force upon force. A Navigator's prescience is thus linear but also nonlinear in taking evidence of feedback a priori (yes, I know that's ass backwards grammatically, wait) as to WHAT WILL interfere with their travels.

    A---------B is what we expect them to see logically, but they have to be concerned with other variables that can cause a ship to get lost of fucked up or damaged. They appear, as evidence of the no-capacity to block stuff off, that they primarily scan variability in and of itself, and have a categorical limitation in the scope of their logic to that search. A Navigator needs to be concern about

    A--------Z_________X------------B line, the Z_X interpolation being the jump itself factored seemingly at a single indefinable point along the A-B line. Add too this other interpolations that COULD interfer with their jumps at other seemingly impossible points, and you could end up with a
    ----------------G
    -----------------!
    -----------------!
    A--------Z____!_____X------------B
    -----------------!
    -----------------!
    -----------------!
    ----------------H

    From our perspective, we're looking at just A-B with some magic happening in between..... a computer COULD supposedly do the stages for Z event, but it's questionable if it's gonna end up at X, and it's not certain if it's because it's mapping system is fudged up, or because of any number of collisions with G!H events. We mustn't forget they also had to take precautions with A-B collisions as well..... yes, as high tech as the spacing guild always was, it didn't have intelligent machines.... or computers for that matter. Everything was the equivalent of dumb a hydraulics as per whatever absurd stipulation of the initial butlarian jihad as well as the leniency of each progressive age whenever it came time to refurnish or build a new guild transport. You'll end up with a disproportionally high amount of scouts dedicated to the task of clearing and making a safe entry area PRIOR to a ship jumping- in other words a awkward guild stay behind detachment likely stuck in orbit around each planet, as well as even more tag along scouts and demolition units to get rid of stuff that poses a potential threat. Yes, the guild ships were large enough, but was the guild large enough in relationship to their capacity to maintain a stable, technologically competent and loyal of a force? A little corruption on their part, from a disaffected yet crucial class, or god forbid a labor strike could cripple the imperium, as well as make their ships prey to any disaffected house who's orbit they suddenly jump into.


    It makes sense over time for the Navigators to evolve in capacity for superior DIRECTION of the administrators within the spacing guild, in avoiding political issues as much as space junk. The BG breeding program would early of came up on their radars, and they likely were red flagged early on as the institution post jihad evolved, asto treat these witches carefully..... as they used themselves as the breeding fodder and likely caused a annoyance to the navigators from time to time themselves. It's very likely the reason the navigators and the BGs knew of the phenomena in the first bloody place, navigators had to keep asking certain BGs to move elsewhere in the ships or not come all together because of the interference, the BGs picked up as they knew who had what genes.... and both eventually figured the other out easy enough as the centuries went by in terms of mutually beneficial compromise.

    Leto is a different matter. He wasn't as multilinear as we suppose him to be- his every past genetic ancestor didn't have a equal role to play, it was the ones best suited that he gave into in a chorus. He differed from his sister as to how he overcame the Freudian ancestral memories (Frank was using Freud's theory here), and certainly from his Aunt. I am sure the Baron was among the voices for Leto, as he seems to of tolerated the Harkonnen barons enough to allow them to build a no room.... they were not the problem of the Nietzschean Last Man that Leto sought to undue in his emphasis of the Golden Path, merely the economic despoiler par excellence- their population WAS the last man, but not the dynasty itself persay- they after all added to Paul and Leto's makeup, in a Beyond Good and Evil stance. Now, yes, each of those ancestors built on other ancestors, and there was from generation to generation a gradual build a genealogy and continuous repetition. One of the questions that arouse in Dune between the twins was what if there were similar past ancestors to them that they could not see, or were sufficiently different from them that thought their DNA were gradually diluted, their ancestral memory was for all extents and perposes either KH or post-siona and therefore their equal or superior, and therefor they couldn't read them. It's a very real concern- the BGs only had 10,000 years to breed, but there wasn't any guarantee it didn't happen in some odd, sorta congruent formulation in the past.

    Leto had as a result still a UNCONSCIOUS element, from the voices he didn't bring into the forefront. He used this unconscious element often, going on dream safari's, or exploring, but as he was suppose to resemble Nietzsche's Overman (as opposed to Nietzsche's Last Man that he sought to break via the scattering, making men want to desire to live independent of a acceptance of a all empowered centralized authority that did everything for them, devolving them), he rejected it for the sake of the moment. He became a synthesis of Neitzsche's Running Man, who ran from the cruelty of bad memories. Frank had two symbols in mythology to go with on this one, either Leto could be a snake or a dragon- as via Jung-, he choose to make him the devil snake, as it better matched up with the mythology he took from the mesopotamian myth cycle the first three books are based on (believe it or not, Leto in Jacurutu is one of the oldest stories mankind ever told, he wasn't the first to develop it. Because of this, in Jung's mandala that Jung's typology was developed off of, as well as the factions in the book are modeled off of, the snake is stationed next to the tree off life, stationed above the gnostic devil (the christian god), but due to Jung's expectation that the personality types, though their natures seemed one way, sought to evolve towards it's opposite (remember the ambassador Leto tried to marry, they thought he was pure evil but turned out he was pure good and they had to model his mate off of that), Leto was forced to think in a certain way, look at the world in a certain way, and therefor curtail his nature to a certain extent. This is crucial, as we can map out siona's characteristics from Jung's Mandala, as well as the main character in book seven who Duncan was with, Sheeana, as she was meant to be the last cardinal direction in the mandala, completing Duncan's evolution via his role as Adapa finally redeemed, no longer tortured and brought back cruelly to life over and over again, to accept his place in immortality, beyond being tricked or manipulated.

    You have to pay attention to the nature of Leto, and the tangent it takes him on the mandala:
    http://www.gnosis.org/Jung_first_mandala.html
    Image

    You see the jews in book 7 under frank's plan played a similar, opposite role to Leto in Book 4- but given KJA and BH they didn't completely quite grasp this, and the jews just tagged along and built a sietch eventually.... and they were rather odd in the book- the two boy geniuses didn't quite grasp this when writing this that there had to be as much correlation between the jews and Sheeana in terms of transformation as there was between Paul's rejection of who he was as the wanderer and his eclipse via Leto heralding the golden path/tree of life. She embodied the idea of absolute goodness but had to have a potentially evil capacity to here, the split and unification of the HMs and BGs was highlighting this, as much as Leto's acceptance of what Paul couldn't do high lighted this. Had the two grasped this, we could of had one good book instead of two bland but sorta correct ones.

    Leto evolved his golden path along a tangent reaching towards the Sheena-Jew synthesis on the opposite side, with siona taking the opposite point on that tangent. You have to look at the horizontal line, which was which? We can grasp that the worms were flying as well as the mouse were flying that Paul and Leto were almost certainly both on the No Ship in Frank's notes, with the jews playing a unifying role to a tripartite friction that NEVER AROUSE in the Dune 7-8 synthesis as it did in books 3-4 with Leto and the golden path. So we can't use with of them to decide which tangent Leto took that Siona was in the lee of on the otherside of the center that he couldn't see. The symbols of the crescent moon and libido sing of the cock symbol sounds like Siona in her youth as both a sexually charged youth as well as a female priestest, the ancient goddess SIN that Allah in pagan arabia was the male version of- a sexually charged incarnation, but it doesn't necessarily rule out Sheena either. We have to look at Leto's nature as a rejuvenating source for his society, and avoidance of sexuality. He took the right path, and coincidentally that's were we see the snake.

    Siona is proof that Leto COULDN'T by default comprehend everything even BEFORE he birth, as she's of the stuff he could never comprehend that well, and his dreams suggesting a continued unconscious- although very limited as it was built on schemes from past memories in past lives (hence his nietzschean rejection in wanting to live in the now), and insistence of holding to certain voices over others in his decision making ancestral chorus. His golden path was literally a path, but as the tree of life, a root structure branching off..... as per which personas from his past he embraced. He couldn't see everything, some things were shadier than others, and towards the end of his life, people started to pick up on this in becoming more and more cunning. Leto had to pay attention to the negation of knowledge to zero in on what was happening, and rationalize it.... and was apparently still quite right.

    So we end up with a inversion of what Freakzilla would naturally think, as a electrical engineer of sorts. It's not wrong on her part, and is very clever. However, feedback loops were only used by Leto prior to Jacurutu, in the breeding program searching out for traits he couldn't quite grasp, and in the end when people started using no ships. Otherwise he had no need for it.... his predictions via past ancestry's Will to Power was enough. He was rather surprisingly linear. Hence perhaps concluding part of the reason why Leto rejected the worm-man hybrid synthesis as the basis for a future humanity.... it was more limited and more of a last man than a superman..... a race of Leto's would be nihilistic ultimately, bored out of their fucking minds. This is a aspect I suspect KJA and BH picked up from Frank's notes in making Leto say after the battle 'fuck dis shit' and hopscotch back into a worm's open mouth, preferring the dream and non-sentient existence over a god. It's a decision Duncan had to oppose within himself. He also had three other aspects he had to keep in check. He was evolving towards the center of the mandala. Dune is a coming of age work, a Nibelung, focusing not so much on Paul, but on the background character of Duncan, just as the starwars series wasn't so much on Luke Skywalker, but Anakin.

    Now.... being in innanity of 'we got jungle fever' Talifan hypocrisy. Go ahead a judge any spelling mistakes, or any past grudge, or some great yet utterly meaningless OH supposition from your own internal conclusions on this forum independent of any external reality save for your own storylines you've built up in seclusion without access to outside materials- many of you know Frank was interested in Jung, personality typing, as well mythology, especially Arab and Mesopotamian systems. Some are aware of the Nietzschean synthesis as well. That's what I used. The mandala is weird, but no weirder that what Frank was into- it's literally the stuff he was into, and I found a old drawling in a berkeley reading room with it in it PRIOR to the printing of the red book, meaning it was already in circulation in the Jungian circles there. Fuck, I can go even further- I know where he got his idea for the cart he and Hwi traveled on, and the military operation that Frank based his understanding of the transformation of Arrakis into Dune, as well as in book 8- and why there was 1 river. It's blatantly obvious to anyone who lives in San Francisco and walked in the Ratha Varna festival behind that massive cart- the God Emperor of Dune's cart is modeled off it, and Krishna and his female counterpart (hare krishna's make everything Krishna, it's suppose to be Balarama, but their totally claiming it to be him, so I don't remember if Subhadra is still Subhadra or something else such as one of Krishna's many escorts, I was a little busy at the time observing how everyone behaved just like in GEOD twirling when they hit the little bridge and repressing my laughter at imaging Frank pretending to shoot them down with a Laze Gun, drowning all the fuckers, at that point to notice what the indian guy pressing me for Lakshmi/money was explaining while we wre marching in the procession- I was more or less 'ya, hu huh'.... damn this all looks like GEOD at the time to take notes on he name, not that it matters, Frank usually changed up the names, or made a sister a aunt as opposed to mythology). The parade of course in San Francisco takes place in 'Golden Gate Park', and Golden Gate Park and Presario are both massive desert reclamation projects, the largest in US History, to reclaim the dunes and plant forests over them. The Tennessee Drainage Basin is the last remaining source of water leaving out of it's old ecosystem, and it's rather pathetic. It's just inside the old military base, along the road that connects the two parks- I used to hike it often- none of the trees Ironically are native to califonia there, all are from australia).

    Now, Freakzilla does have a point of redemption if she can explain how Autopoiesis and Allopoiesis relates to the 'Systems Theory' that Frank held to in relation to the Forth Law of Thermodynamics (one of them, it's a particular one that holds a odd relationship to a theory of Leibniz), that also closely relates to the name of a real life later theorist, who's name rhymes with a theorist mentioned throughout the Dune books. I'll give you a unfair hint:

    Image

    This relates to the way Frank viewed the way the golden path operated, why he couldn't see it but Siona could, and why the scattering allowed a resumption of technology opposed to the Butlarian Jihad. I think Freak is in the best place of everyone on this forum to figure this one out.... though if it's true sandlice's job involves computers in Japan, he might have the better hold on which of Leibniz's theory I am referring to than Freak. Don't smack you heads to hard once it occurs to you, it's the main theme of this book series.

    Okay.... Insert positioned..... wait for the Talifan barrage to being once I leave for a few months, will then return to see how it sank in. It's odd who it usually lands in- though usually in only part, in one person on this forum, and never the one you would expect. You all do your crazy convoluted acrobatics over one another like a bunch of caged animals in the meantime, I'm going spear fishing in the reef in the morning and enjoying the sun.

    NotOnasander
     

    Re: Computer Program Simulating Leto's Prescience

    Postby D Pope » 25 Feb 2012 02:56

    It makes sense over time for the Navigators to evolve in capacity for superior DIRECTION of the administrators within the spacing guild, in avoiding political issues as much as space junk.

    The BG breeding program would early of came up on their radars, and they likely were red flagged early on as the institution post jihad evolved, asto treat these witches carefully..... as they used themselves as the breeding fodder and likely caused a annoyance to the navigators from time to time themselves.

    It's very likely the reason the navigators and the BGs knew of the phenomena in the first bloody place, navigators had to keep asking certain BGs to move elsewhere in the ships or not come all together because of the interference, the BGs picked up as they knew who had what genes.... and both eventually figured the other out easy enough as the centuries went by in terms of mutually beneficial compromise.

    You know, you've almost got a couple of ideas here, it's a shame you're incapable of expanding, explaining, or talking about them. Where did you find all this material?
    Did you claim to be disabled in some way?
    I think it's just great that Pizza Hut has it's $10 pizza deal back on again.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
    -Omphalos
    D Pope
     
    Posts: 1500
    Joined: 14 May 2010 14:11
    Location: Grubville

    Re: Computer Program Simulating Leto's Prescience

    Postby Ampoliros » 25 Feb 2012 02:57

    tl;dc
    Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus
    User avatar
    Ampoliros
     
    Posts: 2516
    Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
    Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

    Re: Computer Program Simulating Leto's Prescience

    Postby Nekhrun » 25 Feb 2012 16:25

    D Pope wrote:I think it's just great that Pizza Hut has it's $10 pizza deal back on again.

    Agreed. Their app isn't as good as Domino's but that's a great price.
    "If he was here to discuss Dune, he sure as hell picked a dumb way to do it." -Omphalos :character-cookiemonster:

    Happy Memorial Day everyone! -James C. Harwood

    "Three of my videos have over 100 views."
    "Over 500 views for my 'Open Question' video." -Nebiros
    User avatar
    Nekhrun
    Icelandic Wiener
     
    Posts: 3287
    Joined: 10 Feb 2008 16:27

    Re: Computer Program Simulating Leto's Prescience

    Postby SadisticCynic » 25 Feb 2012 18:09

    I've never had a Pizza Hut before, can it possibly rank as highly as Domino's or Four Star Pizza? :shock:
    Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity
    User avatar
    SadisticCynic
     
    Posts: 1989
    Joined: 07 Apr 2009 09:28
    Location: In Time or in Space?

    Re: Computer Program Simulating Leto's Prescience

    Postby Nekhrun » 25 Feb 2012 18:39

    SadisticCynic wrote:I've never had a Pizza Hut before, can it possibly rank as highly as Domino's or Four Star Pizza? :shock:

    Hmmm, I've never had Four Star Pizza so I can't answer that. I can say that it's better than Domino's (even though Domino's now is better than Domino's of the past).

    Maybe someone else can chime in here. :?
    "If he was here to discuss Dune, he sure as hell picked a dumb way to do it." -Omphalos :character-cookiemonster:

    Happy Memorial Day everyone! -James C. Harwood

    "Three of my videos have over 100 views."
    "Over 500 views for my 'Open Question' video." -Nebiros
    User avatar
    Nekhrun
    Icelandic Wiener
     
    Posts: 3287
    Joined: 10 Feb 2008 16:27

    Re: Computer Program Simulating Leto's Prescience

    Postby Freakzilla » 25 Feb 2012 19:38

    Pizza Hut rules.
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 17991
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Re: Computer Program Simulating Leto's Prescience

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 25 Feb 2012 20:56

    NotOnasander wrote:If Leto used brainwave technology to record his books, why couldn't the computer engineers of the scattering use the technology and reverse engineer the way it was triggered to calculate how Leto's Brainwaves work, and make a computer model off of that, showing how a symbolic-language based system could express Leto's conscious understanding of causality?


    You assume this is even possible. Alright...

    NotOnasander wrote:It would be easy from that point on in hacking into the awareness in the worms and establishing cybernetic feedback mechanisms to interpret more and more information.


    Really?

    NotOnasander wrote:The worms essentially were giant hard drives roaming around- the codex is literally in the machinery that made the crystal books. Once you have a functioning computerized God Emperor in a computer system, you can force evolve him to overcome Siona, and use that information to undue the golden path by establishing a new god emperor- a electronic based one contained in it's mainframe.


    Word? You speak of possibilities, and that's cool. How would the "computerized" God Emperor undue something that was past undoing?


    Ah man, I had to go pee and whatever. I like a lot of what you had to say in your new post, but I'm not saying you're right, and I'm not saying you're wrong. You make a lot of assumptions, but that's alright. If only you weren't so cocksure! :P What happened to you, and why don't you come around more often? I think you've been hurt, but that's alright, because you probably had it coming. Or not. I don't know. Why use "she" when referring to Freakzilla? Personal attacks should be more personal, I think. We all know he's a man- I'm pretty sure.

    NotOnasander wrote:Now, Freakzilla does have a point of redemption if she can explain how Autopoiesis and Allopoiesis relates to the 'Systems Theory' that Frank held to in relation to the Forth Law of Thermodynamics (one of them, it's a particular one that holds a odd relationship to a theory of Leibniz), that also closely relates to the name of a real life later theorist, who's name rhymes with a theorist mentioned throughout the Dune books.


    I would rather you explained this, and I would rather not wait, but whatever. You know, fuck it.
    What happened, anyway, and why not deal with the attacks that you see coming right now? If you're reading this on the day I posted it, or shortly thereafter, then I invite you to come back and respond. Some people might not like it that I'm inviting you back, but fuck them- and fuck you too, if it comes to that. Ah, possibilities... The Golden Path... Douchebaggery...
    I bring nothing to the table.
    User avatar
    JustSomeGuy
     
    Posts: 791
    Joined: 26 Feb 2011 03:02

    Re: Computer Program Simulating Leto's Prescience

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 25 Feb 2012 21:00

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pWPg2DXcHA&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]
    Not bad, not bad.
    I bring nothing to the table.
    User avatar
    JustSomeGuy
     
    Posts: 791
    Joined: 26 Feb 2011 03:02

    Re: Computer Program Simulating Leto's Prescience

    Postby SandChigger » 29 Feb 2012 09:03

    Ampoliros wrote:tl;dc

    Ditto here... I think. :P
    User avatar
    SandChigger
    KJASF Ground Zero
     
    Posts: 14490
    Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
    Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"

    Previous

    Return to ˲

    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest