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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby blowholesofdune » 06 Apr 2012 12:32

    It's also important to note the theme of: "They will hate me, but at least they'll be alive to hate me." This was a philosophy shared by both Paul and Leto II
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby ULFsurfer » 06 Apr 2012 17:27

    So lesson learned? Should we split up everything in miniature states instead? Then everyone can be happy with their local leaders instead. Just watch out for the new big brothers in the block though..
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Apr 2012 18:36

    Paul didn't really have much of a choice in anything he did, it was all to save Chani, not humanity. And she died anyway.
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby blowholesofdune » 03 May 2012 02:44

    I know he didn't, but Leto did. It was sad to see Chani's character go and starting GEoD knowing that the rest of the cast was gone too(except Duncan) but alas, all good things must come to an end. :tissue2:

    BTW: loved your first response! :doh:
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby drenowski » 09 Jun 2012 16:11

    Freakzilla wrote:Paul didn't really have much of a choice in anything he did


    Isn't that the idea behind the Golden Path? Once you know your future your choices are no longer yours. Not in the usual, human terms of making choices.

    I must admit I read GEoD and think I got it this time and then a year will pass and I'll realize I ain't got it and another year or two later I'll read it again and be certain that this time I really got it and then I don't.

    But how I understand it is: Paul becomes fully prescient and realizes how knowing the future limits you. It would limit humanity too. He sees the Golden Path but doesn't take it, he isn't ready to sacrifice Chani and himself. Leto II sees, more or less, what Paul saw but his decision is to make the sacrifice. You know...

    To understand the Golden Path one must not forget
    to look at Dune Messiah and Children of Dune
    -- The Book-reading Handbook

    The Golden Path is therefore Leto's attempt to break humanity free from the perils of a universe burdened with prescience. Not because he wants to create new, happy people who dis their 9to5 jobs and grow petunias before square-dancing. Its because humanity will, when given half a chance, stagnate. He wants a universe in which he's removed prescience from the equation or at least has made it less significant. That's how I understand his choices and actions and the comments about boredom and surprises. He is suffering his own tyranny for 3500 years until they are finally ready. And he's known this from the first vision of the Golden Path. Knowing your misery in advance and knowing you will have to endure it and then enduring it while you knew and still did it.

    You know, its complicated stuff.
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby Freakzilla » 09 Jun 2012 17:41

    Paul only saw the GP as a way to break out of the prescient trap he'd created for himself. Each time he used prescience to make a decision it limited his future choices, by the time he was blinded he was locked onto one future path and couldn't deviate from it lest the whole universe turn upside down.

    Leto saw it as not only a way to break out of the prescient vision of Paul's which overlaid his own vision from his ancestral memory of Paul but as something he had to do else humanity go extinct. Paul did not see that or else maybe he would have.

    Leto's metamorphosis was an act of creation that broke him out of Paul's vision and saved humanity from extinction. This is only the first step on the Golden Path.

    The main elements of the GP are; suppress migration so people yearn to explore, the Siona Gene which hid his descendants from prescients and promotion of technology like the No-field and Ixian Navigation Machine which allowed anyone to travel where they willed without dependence on spice.

    I don't think I can explain it any simpler than that.
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby Serkanner » 09 Jun 2012 18:36

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Leto's metamorphosis was an act of creation that broke him out of Paul's vision and saved humanity from extinction. This is only the first step on the Golden Path.



    This is, to me, the Golden Path.
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby Freakzilla » 09 Jun 2012 19:13

    Serkanner wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Leto's metamorphosis was an act of creation that broke him out of Paul's vision and saved humanity from extinction. This is only the first step on the Golden Path.



    This is, to me, the Golden Path.


    It didn't really get underway until he died (divided).
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby gurensan » 14 Jun 2012 14:40

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Leto's metamorphosis was an act of creation that broke him out of Paul's vision and saved humanity from extinction. This is only the first step on the Golden Path.



    This is, to me, the Golden Path.


    It didn't really get underway until he died (divided).


    I disagree with the last bit. It got underway the moment it was seen and the decision was made to implement it.

    And then we skip ahead 1500 years and see the results of the process, rather than the process itself. The GP is still chugging along quite nicely at the end of C:oD. The Scattering is only one element, and the HM are only one of many groups out there, thanks to Leto and his decision to ensure that no one single point of civilization failure can ever cause the human race to disappear... a lá the destruction of the spice.

    I could go into the corollaries with our modern existence, but I think I'd better stop there.
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Jun 2012 17:05

    gurensan wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Leto's metamorphosis was an act of creation that broke him out of Paul's vision and saved humanity from extinction. This is only the first step on the Golden Path.



    This is, to me, the Golden Path.


    It didn't really get underway until he died (divided).


    I disagree with the last bit. It got underway the moment it was seen and the decision was made to implement it.

    And then we skip ahead 1500 years and see the results of the process, rather than the process itself. The GP is still chugging along quite nicely at the end of C:oD. The Scattering is only one element, and the HM are only one of many groups out there, thanks to Leto and his decision to ensure that no one single point of civilization failure can ever cause the human race to disappear... a lá the destruction of the spice.

    I could go into the corollaries with our modern existence, but I think I'd better stop there.


    The reason I say that is because up until then his plan could be defeated. So until that point is was just a possible future.
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby Serkanner » 15 Jun 2012 09:59

    Freakzilla wrote:
    gurensan wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Leto's metamorphosis was an act of creation that broke him out of Paul's vision and saved humanity from extinction. This is only the first step on the Golden Path.



    This is, to me, the Golden Path.


    It didn't really get underway until he died (divided).


    I disagree with the last bit. It got underway the moment it was seen and the decision was made to implement it.

    And then we skip ahead 1500 years and see the results of the process, rather than the process itself. The GP is still chugging along quite nicely at the end of C:oD. The Scattering is only one element, and the HM are only one of many groups out there, thanks to Leto and his decision to ensure that no one single point of civilization failure can ever cause the human race to disappear... a lá the destruction of the spice.

    I could go into the corollaries with our modern existence, but I think I'd better stop there.


    The reason I say that is because up until then his plan could be defeated. So until that point is was just a possible future.


    Point taken.
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby gurensan » 27 Jun 2012 12:40

    Serkanner wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    gurensan wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Leto's metamorphosis was an act of creation that broke him out of Paul's vision and saved humanity from extinction. This is only the first step on the Golden Path.



    This is, to me, the Golden Path.


    It didn't really get underway until he died (divided).


    I disagree with the last bit. It got underway the moment it was seen and the decision was made to implement it.

    And then we skip ahead 1500 years and see the results of the process, rather than the process itself. The GP is still chugging along quite nicely at the end of C:oD. The Scattering is only one element, and the HM are only one of many groups out there, thanks to Leto and his decision to ensure that no one single point of civilization failure can ever cause the human race to disappear... a lá the destruction of the spice.

    I could go into the corollaries with our modern existence, but I think I'd better stop there.


    The reason I say that is because up until then his plan could be defeated. So until that point is was just a possible future.


    Point taken.


    Understood. But the process of locking in a future is part of that future, no?
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby Freakzilla » 27 Jun 2012 13:00

    gurensan wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    gurensan wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    Leto's metamorphosis was an act of creation that broke him out of Paul's vision and saved humanity from extinction. This is only the first step on the Golden Path.



    This is, to me, the Golden Path.


    It didn't really get underway until he died (divided).


    I disagree with the last bit. It got underway the moment it was seen and the decision was made to implement it.

    And then we skip ahead 1500 years and see the results of the process, rather than the process itself. The GP is still chugging along quite nicely at the end of C:oD. The Scattering is only one element, and the HM are only one of many groups out there, thanks to Leto and his decision to ensure that no one single point of civilization failure can ever cause the human race to disappear... a lá the destruction of the spice.

    I could go into the corollaries with our modern existence, but I think I'd better stop there.


    The reason I say that is because up until then his plan could be defeated. So until that point is was just a possible future.


    Point taken.


    Understood. But the process of locking in a future is part of that future, no?


    No. The point was to have a universe of surprises. The Golden Path is not an actual path through the future. Leto only used his prescience to see if humanity survives past his own time. As long as all of them don't die... SUCCESS!
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby Freakzilla » 27 Jun 2012 13:13

    All he really did was set humanity up for 'eternal' expansion.
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby gurensan » 29 Jun 2012 19:34

    Freakzilla wrote:
    gurensan wrote:
    Understood. But the process of locking in a future is part of that future, no?


    No. The point was to have a universe of surprises. The Golden Path is not an actual path through the future. Leto only used his prescience to see if humanity survives past his own time. As long as all of them don't die... SUCCESS!


    I'll rephrase - the work Leto did to ensure success wasn't to set up a particular future, but to eliminate the possibilities of others - namely the extinction of humanity through a disaster - that he doesn't reveal - in which the path of avoidance involves lighting a fire under mankind's arse and getting him to scatter like roaches with the light turned on and ensure that they couldn't all be found by another like himself. I think we can all agree on that! I just don't agree that what Leto himself did wasn't part of that plan. I believe it was critical to it.

    It's like driving a car down the street - you didn't push it yourself, but you put gas in the tank, turned the key, put it in gear, and hit the pedal. By the logic that what Leto did wasn't part of the Golden Path, what you did with the car was no part of its getting to the end of the street.

    I say what Leto did was integral to the success of his GP, just like turning the key was integral to the car's motion, even though the axles weren't directly twisted by it. Thus, it was part of it, just as seeing and understanding the need for any solution is an integral part of achieving that solution.
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby Freakzilla » 30 Jun 2012 00:43

    gurensan wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    gurensan wrote:
    Understood. But the process of locking in a future is part of that future, no?


    No. The point was to have a universe of surprises. The Golden Path is not an actual path through the future. Leto only used his prescience to see if humanity survives past his own time. As long as all of them don't die... SUCCESS!


    I'll rephrase - the work Leto did to ensure success wasn't to set up a particular future, but to eliminate the possibilities of others - namely the extinction of humanity through a disaster - that he doesn't reveal


    It's revealed in Siona's test.

    - in which the path of avoidance involves lighting a fire under mankind's arse and getting him to scatter like roaches with the light turned on and ensure that they couldn't all be found by another like himself. I think we can all agree on that! I just don't agree that what Leto himself did wasn't part of that plan. I believe it was critical to it.


    Who's plan?

    It's like driving a car down the street - you didn't push it yourself, but you put gas in the tank, turned the key, put it in gear, and hit the pedal. By the logic that what Leto did wasn't part of the Golden Path, what you did with the car was no part of its getting to the end of the street.


    We can't stop here, this is bat country.

    I say what Leto did was integral to the success of his GP, just like turning the key was integral to the car's motion, even though the axles weren't directly twisted by it. Thus, it was part of it, just as seeing and understanding the need for any solution is an integral part of achieving that solution.


    You've totally lost me with this analogy.
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby gurensan » 06 Jul 2012 18:13

    Freakzilla wrote:You've totally lost me with this analogy.


    The whole point I was making is that no plan or stratagem nor desired result ever occurs without the decision to implement that strategy. The steps taken to set up the conditions of success are integral to the achievement of the it. You can't get an A without doing the homework, just like the car can't get itself to the end of the street until you start the engine.

    Freakzilla wrote:It didn't really get underway until he died (divided).


    Leto's actions were as part of his Golden Path as much as the results were, including seeing the need for it. Seeing the plan is part of the plan, just as turning the key was instrumental in getting the car to the other end of the street. The analogy make sense now?

    And what exactly was the cause of the extinction of humanity revealed during Siona's test? Sickness? War? Boredom? What did I miss that he was so specific about?
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Jul 2012 18:58

    I believe the extinction that Leto's metamorphosis prevented was the machines Siona saw hunting down humans in her vision during her test. He alludes to an Ixian, self-improving, AI, hunter-seeker that they contemplated making in a conversation with Hwi. I think that was it.

    However, that was a separate instance from the GP, which was to make sure humanity would continue after he was gone. Up until his death which ignited The Scattering and Famine Times, his plans still could have been foiled.

    You could say that Leto's whole life was the turning of the key but the car didn't start moving until it ended.

    :wink:
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby Outis » 06 Jul 2012 19:46

    Freakzilla wrote:I believe the extinction that Leto's metamorphosis prevented was the machines Siona saw hunting down humans in her vision during her test. He alludes to an Ixian, self-improving, AI, hunter-seeker that they contemplated making in a conversation with Hwi. I think that was it.

    And more significantly when he's dying he says the Ixians can no longer bring about the Apocalypse.
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 29 Jul 2015 17:23

    I view the Golden Path simply as the survival of humankind through the scattering. I believe Leto used the phrase "the eggs are not in one basket." It's kind of like if you wanted your genes to survive, you would have a lot of children and build up in them a great desire to travel and then completely restrict them. When they came of age, you would send them far away to all corners of the world. A whole continent could sink, but your genes would continue and express themselves in new ways (futars?).

    Further, I believe Leto freed mankind from predestination (mankind as a whole, not as an individual) through the Siona gene. There would no longer be ONE future.
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby PanCotzky » 15 Jan 2016 14:53

    Ok. There's actually a metaphor, stretched across the entire series and the REAL question that was left unanswered by Frank but was tackled by Brian (for better or for worse). First - the meaning of the name "The Golden Path".

    First of all it is not a literal term but rather a mathematical one. Like the Golden Section. "Golden" means "the best of all possible", "the most optimal". The Golden Path is a purpose for which the Kwisatz Haderach was created. Definitely the Bene Gesserit didn't plan that but it was pretty obvious. The words "Kwisatz Haderach" means "Shortening of the Way" and by its nature the Kwisatz Haderach is just a very powerful Navigator. The work of the navigator is to scan different paths of the ship in the future. Most of the paths lead the ship to a certain demise. Some of them just lead it to a wrong points. And among all those millions of paths there is one and only that leads the ship to a final destination safely - the Golden Path. The Kwisatz Haderach is also a navigator. But he doesn't lead ships. He leads the Humanity itself. And his Golden Path is a way of getting humanity to the future without it dying off.

    Now the second thing. I think that asking what the Golden Path is - not totally correct. What you should have asked is what the KRALIZEC is? Because the Golden Path from the very beginning was just a way of avoiding Kralizec. And if it was just death from stagnation then there was no point of writing Heretics, Chapterhouse and (potentially) Dune 7, because the ending of GEoD was sufficient - the Humanity have got their No-Ships and No-Leaders (descendants of Siona) and went to the Scattering. The end. But there was continuation. That means that the Golden Path was only set in motion but wasn't totally resolved. The total meaning of the Golden Path should be explained in Dune 7 but... You know...

    P.S. (Why everyone pretend that "Hunters" and "Sandworms" doesn't exist? Why am I pretending the same thing?)
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby Serkanner » 15 Jan 2016 15:17

    PanCotzky wrote:Ok. There's actually a metaphor, stretched across the entire series and the REAL question that was left unanswered by Frank but was tackled by Brian (for better or for worse). First - the meaning of the name "The Golden Path".



    Blasphemy! Take his water.
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby georgiedenbro » 15 Jan 2016 15:30

    PanCotzky wrote:Ok. There's actually a metaphor, stretched across the entire series and the REAL question that was left unanswered by Frank but was tackled by Brian (for better or for worse). First - the meaning of the name "The Golden Path".

    First of all it is not a literal term but rather a mathematical one. Like the Golden Section. "Golden" means "the best of all possible", "the most optimal". The Golden Path is a purpose for which the Kwisatz Haderach was created. Definitely the Bene Gesserit didn't plan that but it was pretty obvious. The words "Kwisatz Haderach" means "Shortening of the Way" and by its nature the Kwisatz Haderach is just a very powerful Navigator. The work of the navigator is to scan different paths of the ship in the future. Most of the paths lead the ship to a certain demise. Some of them just lead it to a wrong points. And among all those millions of paths there is one and only that leads the ship to a final destination safely - the Golden Path. The Kwisatz Haderach is also a navigator. But he doesn't lead ships. He leads the Humanity itself. And his Golden Path is a way of getting humanity to the future without it dying off.


    I like your line of thinking on the term "golden path", but it should be noted that the series states clearly that the KH isn't just a more powerful Navigator, he uses non-linear prescience and avoids a machine type of thinking. On a metaphorical level I would agree that Leto II 'navigates' for humanity, but the type of understanding and power the KH has is not just a more powerful version of what a Navigator does. I like the idea of thinking of 'shortening of the way' as having some reference to the golden ratio, but it also clearly has to do with shortening the way between the past and the future - in Paul's words, making them both "the now." Or to use Colonel Sanders' words, "soon."

    Now the second thing. I think that asking what the Golden Path is - not totally correct. What you should have asked is what the KRALIZEC is? Because the Golden Path from the very beginning was just a way of avoiding Kralizec. And if it was just death from stagnation then there was no point of writing Heretics, Chapterhouse and (potentially) Dune 7, because the ending of GEoD was sufficient - the Humanity have got their No-Ships and No-Leaders (descendants of Siona) and went to the Scattering. The end. But there was continuation. That means that the Golden Path was only set in motion but wasn't totally resolved. The total meaning of the Golden Path should be explained in Dune 7 but... You know...


    Kralizec was inevitable and if anything the Golden Path was meant to lead to it, not avoid it.

    Children of Dune wrote:Leto peered beyond the man, said: "Here in Shuloch they still pray for dew
    at the desert's edge. Go, Muriz, and pray for Kralizec. I promise you it will
    come."



    P.S. (Why everyone pretend that "Hunters" and "Sandworms" doesn't exist? Why am I pretending the same thing?)


    Because we don't include fan fiction in the canon. Or like Serkanner put it: blasphemy!
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby PanCotzky » 15 Jan 2016 15:40

    Serkanner wrote:Blasphemy! Take his water.


    I have a certain water for you my friend! But I don't think you will like its taste... :D

    What part of my post appears blasphemous to you, oh fellow Fedaykin?
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    Re: The Golden Path

    Postby PanCotzky » 15 Jan 2016 15:53

    georgiedenbro wrote:Kralizec was inevitable and if anything the Golden Path was meant to lead to it, not avoid it.


    Oh! That means that I understood the book in a wrong way? That actually possible because I used that book for certain experiment. You see, english is not my native language and I decided to listen an audio version of the "Children" in English to upgrade my skills. That totally worked - the next books of the series was much easier to listen but it appears that the Children itself wasn't understood correctly.

    But the question is still stands: what exactly Kralizec was or should be? I've heard a rumor that Frank wrote to his friend about potential ending to a series where the humanity would cast away all the feudalism and imperialism and create a democracy and it is the final destination of a Golden Path. I have no evidences to this rumors though.
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