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    Evolution of the GP

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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby inhuien » 04 Jan 2013 14:01

    And that's why I'm not a gambling man, and as he was prescient, hence why he couldn't be seen. I know I'd cocked it up.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Jan 2013 14:07

    :lol: No, I think you're good now.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby inhuien » 04 Jan 2013 14:10

    Be well. :)
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby maccodacco » 22 Nov 2014 17:27

    If the oracle creates the future as much as he predicts it, is it not possible Paul could not see the Golden Path, since he was never able to do it in the first place? His son a of a different stock, more fremen and his personality consisting of a collection of leaders throughout human history, was able to see the golden path, because he was also already able to make the tough choice.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Robspierre » 22 Nov 2014 18:27

    Paul saw the Golden Path, but admitted to Leto he did not have the courage to undergo the transformation that was necessary. Leto knew he needed to go through the transformation in order for the Golden Path to succeed.

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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby georgiedenbro » 25 Nov 2014 02:25

    maccodacco wrote:If the oracle creates the future as much as he predicts it, is it not possible Paul could not see the Golden Path, since he was never able to do it in the first place? His son a of a different stock, more fremen and his personality consisting of a collection of leaders throughout human history, was able to see the golden path, because he was also already able to make the tough choice.


    I believe that Paul saw the possibility of the Golden Path, but not the need for it, and had he conducted it himself it would have simply been an act of cruelty with no noble purpose. Leto II saw the purpose in it, and since he admits freely that Paul's vision was at least at powerful, if not greater, than Leto's, I conclude as you do that the difference between their visions therefore lay in the difference between the men. There are a few possibilities:

    1) As you say, that Paul literally could not do the plan as Leto II saw it, and therefore didn't see the full extent of the need for the GP. Based on Paul's comments to Leto II in the desert I'm not convinced this was it, as Paul seemed more than capable of taking on the sandtrout and of using the BG immortality trick on himself. I guess Paul was 'not capable', in the sense of 'not willing' to go through with such a plan, so maybe this would prevent the vision altogether.

    2) Perhaps there actually was no need for the Golden Plan at all until Leto II was born; in other words, something about who Leto II was made the need for the Golden Plan come into being, which Paul could not have know of prior to Leto's birth. It is even possible that the Golden Plan is a prescient trap made up by Leto II himself, and that even at the time of his birth the trap began to be set. The great threat to humanity that Leto II relates to Siona, for instance, may have been prompted as a reaction to the tyranny of the God Emperor, and was therefore Leto's fault that he also corrected.

    3) It is possible that the Golden Plan required a certain set of actions to take place, and that the beginning of it required the Preacher to set into motion events that would take down the mythos of Muad'Dib and prop up his son as the successor. Since he, himself, might not have been capable to undoing his own myth and then going on to be the God Emperor himself, the plan would require the God Emperor to be someone else - his son. We see signs in CoD that right after DM Paul went about setting the stage for the Golden Plan to be possible. In this sense we might say that Paul did see the full Golden Plan, but required the person who would actually conduct the main stages of it to confirm that it's what he also thought was best to do. Since Leto II would know himself better than Paul could know him, he would therefore be able to predict his own future better than Paul ever could; also, since they were both oracles they may have been providing interference with each other once Leto II was born.

    This leads me to wonder an old question of mine, which is whether oracles who are cooperative with each other still cannot be seen by each other through prescience, or can instead choose to open up that shielding and see each other fully with no prescient blind spot.

    I'm almost there in the book now so I'll write something else if I find something interesting.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 30 Nov 2014 19:40

    Paul never Saw the extinction of humanity so from his point of view the GP would just be an extremely cruel lesson.

    I've often wondered if the extinction that Leto Saw and the GP would prevent was created by his vision. However, I don't think so if Paul could have done it too, even if unknowingly.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby georgiedenbro » 30 Nov 2014 22:07

    Freakzilla wrote:Paul never Saw the extinction of humanity so from his point of view the GP would just be an extremely cruel lesson.

    I've often wondered if the extinction that Leto Saw and the GP would prevent was created by his vision. However, I don't think so if Paul could have done it too, even if unknowingly.


    As I see it, Paul wouldn't be able to predict the extinction if the extinction was precipitated as a specific reaction to Leto II's tyranny. Since Paul couldn't see his son in the visions, any event brought about strictly as a result of Leto II's actions might not be apparent to Paul. Absent his son, Paul wouldn't see the extinction since Paul himself didn't want to be a God Emperor and therefore the extinction wouldn't actually happen. But since Leto II was of a different disposition than his father and would be willing to commit terrible acts for a noble purpose, the vision of the extinction would appear at the birth of Leto II.

    I definitely think Paul could have become a God Emperor, but he saw no reason to do so. It certainly creates a time paradox when we consider the possibility that Paul's not seeing the need to be God Emperor might be been because he didn't see the extinction, and that the extinction wasn't viewable because he didn't want to be the God Emperor! But I guess we have to be satisfied with the fact that visions will be different for each oracle as they differ from each other in their intentions and nature.

    That Alia and Paul shared identical visions (as we learn in DM) seems to be a special case, and has to do with them being linked in some special way. This special link is alluded to in Dune when Alia signals Paul through prescience, and in DM both when Alia mentions sharing Paul's vision and also when Bijaz hypnotizes Hayt and tells him that Paul and Alia are two halves of one whole person.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby lotek » 02 Dec 2014 09:10

    The oracle can't see another oracle but it can see the consequences of its actions if I'm not mistaken.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 02 Dec 2014 13:03

    "There are people and things in our universe which I know only by their
    effects," Edric said, his fish mouth held in a thin line. "I know they have been
    here . . . there . . . somewhere. As water creatures stir up the currents in
    their passage, so the prescient stir up Time. I have seen where your husband has
    been; never have I seen him nor the people who truly share his aims and
    loyalties. This is the concealment which an adept gives to those who are his."

    ~Dune Messiah

    He saw her accept her own nakedness the way Moneo had accepted it, with fear and
    hate. It was of little matter. He probed the time ahead of them. Yes, she would
    survive his desert because her tracks were in the sand beside him . . . but he
    saw no sign of her flesh in those tracks. Just beyond her tracks, though, he saw
    a sudden opening where things had been concealed. Anteac's death-shout echoed
    through his prescient awareness . . . and the swarming of Fish Speakers
    attacking!

    ~GEoD
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby lotek » 02 Dec 2014 13:43

    That's what I'm talking about, thanks Freak!
    Forgot about the GEoD one though.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby georgiedenbro » 02 Dec 2014 15:18

    I finally got to the chapter in CoD last night between Paul and Leto. From everything Paul had to say it sounds like he deliberately avoided exploring the futures involving him being the God Emperor since it was too terrible for him to consider.

    CoD wrote:Tears slipped from the sightless eyes and Paul released his grip, dropped his hand to his side.
    "If I'd chosen your way, I'd have become the bicouros of shaitan. What will you become?"
    "For a time they'll call me the missionary of shaitan, too," Leto said.
    "Then they'll begin to wonder and, finally, they'll understand. You didn't take
    your vision far enough, father. Your hands did good things and evil."
    "But the evil was known after the event!"
    "Which is the way of many great evils," Leto said. "You crossed over only
    into a part of my vision. Was your strength not enough?"
    "You know I couldn't stay there. I could never do an evil act which was
    known before the act. I'm not Jacurutu." He clambered to his feet. "Do you think
    me one of those who laughs alone at night
    ?"
    "It is sad that you were never really Fremen," Leto said. "We Fremen know
    how to commission the arifa. Our judges can choose between evils. It's always been that way for us."


    Since Paul didn't closely explore the details of the path involving his being the God Emperor, I guess he didn't chance upon the fact that one of those details was the extinction. He didn't consider that something in that future path might actually justify taking that path. The line about laughing alone seems to suggest that Paul cannot help but keep true to the principles of others such as his father, even if breaking them would have a good result. He can't just live as if only his views matter, as Leto is able to do. Paul subsequently says this regarding good results:

    CoD wrote:After a long silence, Paul said: "The end adjusts the path behind it. Just
    once I failed to fight for my principles. Just once. I accepted the Mahdinate. I
    did it for Chani, but it made me a bad leader."


    Paul admits to having chosen the path of jihad to save Chani, which in his estimation was a betrayal of his ideals since he sacrificed others for himself and Chani. But if the end had been something nobler, it might have justified the jihad. Paul seems to be making a "the ends justify the means" statement, which accords with Leto's view. If Paul had realized that being God Emperor could have a noble purpose then it would have justified it.

    I'm still not sure if this proves that the extinction was inevitable, or only inevitable if someone was going to go ahead and be the God Emperor. If the latter, then the noble purpose of being God Emperor only exists because of a problem created by the existence of a God Emperor. That said, Leto's earlier thoughts on the matter suggests that there was more noble purpose to it than just avoiding the extinction:

    CoD wrote:Leto spoke in a conversational tone, masking his own tensions, the balancing
    effort this other-level contest required. "I have no passionate belief in truth,
    no faith other than what I create," he said. And he felt then a movement between
    himself and his father, something with granular characteristics which touched
    only Leto's own passionately subjective belief in himself. By such belief he
    knew that he posted the markers of the Golden Path. Someday such markers could
    tell others how to be human
    , a strange gift from a creature who no longer would
    be human on that day.


    And what it is to "be human" is expanded upon near the end of the chapter:

    CoD wrote:"Fremen, is it? Slaves of the fate you helped to make?" Paul stepped toward
    Leto, reached out in an oddly shy movement, touched Leto's sheathed arm,
    explored up it to where the membrane exposed an ear, then the cheek and,
    finally, the mouth. "Ahhhh, that is your own flesh yet," he said. "Where will
    that flesh take you?" He dropped his hand.
    "Into a place where humans may create their futures from instant to
    instant.
    "


    Unlike Leto, Paul was chained by some beliefs. While both of them had seemingly similar beliefs in the long-run, Leto accepts using methods Paul wouldn't condone. Does this mean that Leto is more in line with the Baron's view of ruling, which is that no method is unacceptable as long as the goal is achieved? If all that separates the Baron from Leto is their ultimate goal that does make Paul's choice to be a preacher rather than a ruler much more sympathetic to me. It also makes it all the more poignant that Leto's aunt should be possessed by the Baron, who shows what happens when an "ends justify the means" habit is embraced without having a noble purpose. FH seems to subtly suggest that 'noble' is an absolute value and that any enlightened being would probably agree with it given sufficient information.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Serkanner » 03 Dec 2014 03:49

    georgiedenbro wrote:While both of them had seemingly similar beliefs in the long-run, Leto accepts using methods Paul wouldn't condone. Does this mean that Leto is more in line with the Baron's view of ruling, which is that no method is unacceptable as long as the goal is achieved?


    I think it is more in line with the Fremen way: all is acceptable for the survival of the tribe.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 03 Dec 2014 07:39

    I think that as the reader we have to have faith in what Leto says, that the extinction would have happened, and that his Vision was true and not dependent on him viewing it. Leto tells Siona during her test that without him, by then, there would be no people anywhere and that the GP still remained open. I take that to me that if he hadn't existed, or had chose to live with Sabiha in shack, the extinction would have happened, and that at that point there was still a possibility of the GP failing.

    "Without me there would have been by now no people anywhere, none whatsoever.
    And the path to that extinction was more hideous than your wildest imaginings."
    "Your supposed prescience," she sneered.
    "The Golden Path still stands open," he said.


    Taking that into account, I have always perceived the prevention of extinction and the GP as two sepatate things. By choosing the metamorphosis Leto prevented extinction. The GP set up conditions where such a possible extinction could never again be possible.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby georgiedenbro » 03 Dec 2014 10:25

    That makes sense. But then I wonder at the fact that Paul didn't see the extinction. If Paul saw the Golden Path clearly and shied away from spending too much time thinking about it, you'd think he'd have seen all the events that would occur without the Golden Path, such as the extinction. I had concluded that since the only futures Paul shied away from inspecting too much were those where he was an immortal tyrant, that therefore the extinction was somehow involved in that future path and not a path without it. You could be right that Leto means the extinction would have happened without him, but could "without me" not have meant "without me acting at the time I did to stop it" as opposed to "without me having ever become God Emperor"?

    You are right, though, that Leto seems to imply to Paul that without the Golden Path mankind will go extinct. But if that's so, how could he have ever been undecided about which path to take? The majority of the book consists of him and Ghani, and then him alone considering which path is best and whether the Golden Plan is really necessary. Even when he's with Sabiha he is tempted to change his mind, and even with Paul he's not sure whether he will be able to will himself to go along with it (the two of them struggling for control of the vision). But if it was so certain that there would be an extinction if he didn't become God Emperor then you'd think there would be nothing to talk about and no doubt at all. What could possibly sway him not to go down that path if he knew mankind would end otherwise?

    The safeguarding of humanity for the future through the Scattering, I suppose, could be seen as cruelty 'just in case it matters', but to stop that particular extinction, I dunno; that would seem to be a deal-breaker for taking any other path. I can't help but feel that there's something more to it.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 03 Dec 2014 10:45

    I think Paul's vision simply was not as strong as Leto's.

    "I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
    know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
    thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
    "It's that or humans will be extinguished."
    Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
    acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
    the choices."


    Still, even if it's inevitable, Leto could say, "fuck you, humanity", and make the selfish choice to live out a normal life. Even with his ancestral memories, Atreides and Fremen training, and prescience, it would be a unthinkable personal sacrifice and anyone would have doubts.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby georgiedenbro » 03 Dec 2014 11:30

    Freakzilla wrote:I think Paul's vision simply was not as strong as Leto's.

    "I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
    know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
    thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
    "It's that or humans will be extinguished."
    Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
    acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
    the choices."


    Still, even if it's inevitable, Leto could say, "fuck you, humanity", and make the selfish choice to live out a normal life. Even with his ancestral memories, Atreides and Fremen training, and prescience, it would be a unthinkable personal sacrifice and anyone would have doubts.


    I guess I've never been able to reconcile that quote with this one:

    CoD wrote:"Thousands of peaceful years," Leto said. "That's what I'll give them."
    "Dormancy! Stagnation!"
    "Of course. And those forms of violence which I permit. It'll be a lesson which humankind will never forget."
    "I spit on your lesson!" Paul said. "You think I've not seen a thing similar to what you choose?"
    "You saw it," Leto agreed.
    "Is your vision any better than mine?"
    "Not one whit better. Worse, perhaps
    ," Leto said.
    "Then what can I do but resist you?" Paul demanded.


    But maybe I've been misunderstanding the quote. When Paul asks Leto whether his vision is any better than Paul's, I had always thought he meant to ask whether Leto's prescience was more powerful than Paul's, thus affording him the ability to see things Paul couldn't see. I had thought Leto's answer meant that Leto wasn't any more of a KH than Paul was. But what if it means something else? The first bolded section indicates that Paul knows his vision was not absolutely identical to Leto's, but still similar. The difference might be just that each oracle will see things differently as per their individual differences, and it could also mean that no oracle can explore all the infinite paths and must do his best to just catch as many of them as possible to make a decision. Whichever it is, in the second bolded section what if Paul is actually asking Leto whether Leto's vision of the Golden Path is better than Pauls; not better in terms of accuracy, but better in terms of not being as cruel or tyrannical. Reworded, it might mean: "Is the future you see in your vision any more palatable than the one I saw in mine?" To which Leto answers that it isn't, and that perhaps Leto even intends to make it even more vicious than Paul had foreseen. If this reading is the correct one then there would be no contradiction and we could assume that Leto's prescience is more powerful than Paul's, in addition to the fact that Paul didn't even want to observe certain futures.

    It's also possible that Leto's vision was had more scope than Paul's simply because Leto already had Paul's memories of many paths and we might assume that Leto took those for granted and took the opportunity to observe other futures that Paul didn't have time to or didn't want to. If we think of this in terms of computing power, it might just mean that Leto's advantage over Paul was that Paul had already done a lot of legwork for him before he was born.

    I guess I'm just hesitant to admit anyone is better than Paul in the series! I'm a Paul fan.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby D Pope » 03 Dec 2014 11:41

    Serkanner wrote:
    georgiedenbro wrote:While both of them had seemingly similar beliefs in the long-run, Leto accepts using methods Paul wouldn't condone. Does this mean that Leto is more in line with the Baron's view of ruling, which is that no method is unacceptable as long as the goal is achieved?


    I think it is more in line with the Fremen way: all is acceptable for the survival of the tribe.

    Leto knows he is the only one aware of the problems, Paul & possibly Ghanima are the only people
    who can understand this when/if Leto decides to talk to them. Combine this with other things we
    know about Leto and the result can be a little disconcerting.

    "I have no passionate belief in truth,
    no faith other than what I create," he said. And he felt then a movement between
    himself and his father, something with granular characteristics which touched
    only Leto's own passionately subjective belief in himself. By such belief he
    knew that he posted the markers of the Golden Path.

    I think Leto takes it all on himself, making decisions in accordance with his own morality. It would
    be like a parent setting rules and limits for children who're unaware of the dangers such rules curtail.
    Like it says earlier in the book, how could we presume to judge such as he?

    You've said Paul was chained by some beliefs, I don't doubt that he could've made 'hard decisions' if
    he'd seen the bigger picture. Paul says, in effect, he can't knowingly be evil- I think he references a
    much narrower definition because of his lack of scope. I'm reminded of when Leto asks Stilgar about
    the beautiful young women.

    It may, however, be argued that the difference with OM left Leto better prepared in the 'hard decision'
    department.


    ...
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby D Pope » 03 Dec 2014 11:44

    The GPs immediate goal was survival, the long term goal, maturity.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 03 Dec 2014 12:06

    georgiedenbro wrote:I guess I'm just hesitant to admit anyone is better than Paul in the series! I'm a Paul fan.


    How you feel about this-your petty woes and joys, even your agonies and
    raptures-seldom concerns us. My father had this power. I have it stronger. We
    can peer now and again through the veils of Time.

    ~GEoD

    LETO RULES! :P

    I've alawys interpreted that passage from C0D to mean that Leto's vision was crueler than Paul's.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby georgiedenbro » 03 Dec 2014 12:27

    Freakzilla wrote:I've alawys interpreted that passage from C0D to mean that Leto's vision was crueler than Paul's.


    Yeah, I had thought "vision" here referred to the ability to see (e.g. my vision is 20/20 and yours is 20/30, so my vision is better than yours) as opposed to referring to a specific vision. Now that I read it this way it fits in better with the rest and I'm in agreement with you.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby JasonJD48 » 05 Feb 2015 16:13

    Serkanner wrote:
    georgiedenbro wrote:While both of them had seemingly similar beliefs in the long-run, Leto accepts using methods Paul wouldn't condone. Does this mean that Leto is more in line with the Baron's view of ruling, which is that no method is unacceptable as long as the goal is achieved?


    I think it is more in line with the Fremen way: all is acceptable for the survival of the tribe.


    Leto himself says exactly this.

    ""You know I couldn't stay there. I could never do an evil act which was known before the act. I'm not Jacurutu..."
    "It is sad that you were never really Fremen," Leto said. "We Fremen know how to commission the arifa. Our judges can choose between evils. It's always been that way for us."


    -----

    georgiedenbro wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:I think Paul's vision simply was not as strong as Leto's.

    "I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
    know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
    thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
    "It's that or humans will be extinguished."
    Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
    acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
    the choices."


    Still, even if it's inevitable, Leto could say, "fuck you, humanity", and make the selfish choice to live out a normal life. Even with his ancestral memories, Atreides and Fremen training, and prescience, it would be a unthinkable personal sacrifice and anyone would have doubts.


    I guess I've never been able to reconcile that quote with this one:

    CoD wrote:"Thousands of peaceful years," Leto said. "That's what I'll give them."
    "Dormancy! Stagnation!"
    "Of course. And those forms of violence which I permit. It'll be a lesson which humankind will never forget."
    "I spit on your lesson!" Paul said. "You think I've not seen a thing similar to what you choose?"
    "You saw it," Leto agreed.
    "Is your vision any better than mine?"
    "Not one whit better. Worse, perhaps
    ," Leto said.
    "Then what can I do but resist you?" Paul demanded.


    But maybe I've been misunderstanding the quote. When Paul asks Leto whether his vision is any better than Paul's, I had always thought he meant to ask whether Leto's prescience was more powerful than Paul's, thus affording him the ability to see things Paul couldn't see. I had thought Leto's answer meant that Leto wasn't any more of a KH than Paul was. But what if it means something else? The first bolded section indicates that Paul knows his vision was not absolutely identical to Leto's, but still similar. The difference might be just that each oracle will see things differently as per their individual differences, and it could also mean that no oracle can explore all the infinite paths and must do his best to just catch as many of them as possible to make a decision. Whichever it is, in the second bolded section what if Paul is actually asking Leto whether Leto's vision of the Golden Path is better than Pauls; not better in terms of accuracy, but better in terms of not being as cruel or tyrannical. Reworded, it might mean: "Is the future you see in your vision any more palatable than the one I saw in mine?" To which Leto answers that it isn't, and that perhaps Leto even intends to make it even more vicious than Paul had foreseen. If this reading is the correct one then there would be no contradiction and we could assume that Leto's prescience is more powerful than Paul's, in addition to the fact that Paul didn't even want to observe certain futures.


    Very good point. Though you know from another discussion that part of my take is that Leto's vision isn't necessarily deeper or more detailed, simply of a broader scope and a different perspective than navigating paths. Still, I like the above theory a lot, that he was asking of the vision not meaning Leto's ability being better but rather if Leto saw the outcome as any better. That's whats so wonderful about Dune and FH, there's so many ways to read each and every sentence and interaction, really layered and nuanced.

    It's also possible that Leto's vision was had more scope than Paul's simply because Leto already had Paul's memories of many paths and we might assume that Leto took those for granted and took the opportunity to observe other futures that Paul didn't have time to or didn't want to. If we think of this in terms of computing power, it might just mean that Leto's advantage over Paul was that Paul had already done a lot of legwork for him before he was born.


    Another fair point, he also had, as noted above, the Fremen perspective in OM that Paul lacked.

    I guess I'm just hesitant to admit anyone is better than Paul in the series! I'm a Paul fan.


    I can tell. I will say that I'm not one that agrees with the view of 'Paul the coward' or anything like that. I just think Paul wasn't truly equipped to do what Leto did, both in terms of raw ability and more importantly, in temperament, he was too much an Atreides. If Paul hadn't done what he had though, there would never had been a Leto II to take the sandtrout skin in the first place. I've always wondered what would have happened to humanity if Paul had either died in the Harkonnen attack or chosen to live peacefully among the Fremen forever instead of taking back the planet from the Emperor/Harkonnens. Like John the Baptist was to Jesus, Paul had to come first.
    "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
    - Arthur C. Clarke
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    JasonJD48
     
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