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    Evolution of the GP

    Postby ULFsurfer » 05 Jul 2012 22:13

    I'm trying to understand how the vision and ideas of what the Golden Path evolved over the 2nd and 3rd book. I know that Paul felt trapped in his prescient visions of a future with no deviations, but he wasn't aware of humankind's eventual destruction on this path, was he? I also understand that Leto inherited Paul's memories and visions. So what made it different in his case? When Leto and Ghanima let the Corrinos attempt their assassination it seemed as they knew that Muad'Dib and his jihad had to be undone, but did they already have a hunch about the Golden Path? Did this path occur in it's concrete form to Leto only after he had been fed all that spice at Jacurutu? What makes his newly gained prescience different from the one he had in Paul's other memory?
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Jul 2012 09:30

    ULFsurfer wrote:I'm trying to understand how the vision and ideas of what the Golden Path evolved over the 2nd and 3rd book. I know that Paul felt trapped in his prescient visions of a future with no deviations, but he wasn't aware of humankind's eventual destruction on this path, was he?


    No, he was not.

    I also understand that Leto inherited Paul's memories and visions. So what made it different in his case? When Leto and Ghanima let the Corrinos attempt their assassination it seemed as they knew that Muad'Dib and his jihad had to be undone, but did they already have a hunch about the Golden Path? Did this path occur in it's concrete form to Leto only after he had been fed all that spice at Jacurutu? What makes his newly gained prescience different from the one he had in Paul's other memory?


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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Outis » 06 Jul 2012 19:39

    ULFsurfer wrote:he wasn't aware of humankind's eventual destruction on this path, was he?

    The question is more: how precisely was he aware? He said in his conversation with his son that he wasn't aware of the Golden Path as the only way to avoid extinction. But everyone equipped with clue was more or less aware of the risk. We are aware of the chances humanity is taking in our universe, aren't we? Certainly the BG were trying to avoid this outcome.

    ULFsurfer wrote:So what made it different in his case?

    He had more vision. Why? I don't believe it's spelled out but I think one of the two most obvious explanation is that unlike Paul, he was a Fremen and a pre-born. He was willing to listen to the message and didn't avert his inner eye.
    The other explanation would be that Paul never had such a deep spice trance as his son had at Jacurutu.

    Keep in mind the Golden Path might not have functioned according to our linear conception of time.
    The mini-series played with the idea more explicitely than the books but the writers were clearly faithful to Herbert's ideas in that respect.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Jul 2012 21:12

    "I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
    know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
    thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
    "It's that or humans will be extinguished."
    Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
    acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
    the choices."

    "I believe the Sisterhood suspects it," Leto said. "I cannot accept any
    other explanation of my grandmother's decision."

    ~Children of Dune
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Jul 2012 21:20

    You are close with the Fremen thing... it allowed Leto to make the tough choice. Paul was an aristocrat and could not choose the metamorphosis and the termoil that would follow just to break out of his prescient trap, without knowing he was also saving the human race.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Outis » 07 Jul 2012 11:00

    I don't understand what it is you are saying exactly.
    Are you saying Leto's vision didn't include the extinction of humanity before taking on the sandtrout skin? How can you support that?
    Are you saying Leto chose the metamorphosis in order to escape the prescience trap? There were other ways (at least until he went through the spice trance) and yet the twins comitted to the GP earlier on different grounds. They were threatened by the BG as well as possession and they wanted to destroy their father's vision (not the prescient trap in general).
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 07 Jul 2012 11:22

    Outis wrote:I don't understand what it is you are saying exactly.


    Not unusual.

    Are you saying Leto's vision didn't include the extinction of humanity before taking on the sandtrout skin? How can you support that?


    I don't know how you can get that from what I posted. It was PAUL that didn't see the extinction, thus didn't see the importance of the metamorphosis.

    Are you saying Leto chose the metamorphosis in order to escape the prescience trap?


    Yes, the metamorphosis was the key to both breaking free of the prescient trap Paul had creating and focusing the threads of the future through him to create the GP.

    There were other ways (at least until he went through the spice trance) and yet the twins comitted to the GP earlier on different grounds.


    Such as? Leto was a natural prescient before the spice trance, just like Paul. Ghani went along with Leto but he didn't tell her the details of "his skin is not his own" for fear of her not going along with it.

    They were threatened by the BG as well as possession and they wanted to destroy their father's vision (not the prescient trap in general).


    Paul's vision WAS a prescient trap, in general. Ghani escaped possession through hypnosis, Leto did not escape it, he integrated all his ancestral personas into his own. What was the BG threat? Once Leto survived the Spice Trance it was pretty much all over for the BG.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Outis » 07 Jul 2012 12:27

    Freakzilla wrote:I don't know how you can get that from what I posted. It was PAUL that didn't see the extinction, thus didn't see the importance of the metamorphosis.

    The thread's original question wasn't why Paul and Leto made different choices but why Leto's vision was broader.
    I still don't understand how you figure the metamorphosis plays into it. Are you saying that the human Leto was given his vision by the future god Leto or something?

    Freakzilla wrote:Yes, the metamorphosis was the key to both breaking free of the prescient trap Paul had creating and focusing the threads of the future through him to create the GP.

    It was key to the GP obviously.
    But how was it key to breaking free of Paul's vision? The other characters don't act as though they thought it was the only way. Does Herbert state that Leto figured this out somewhere?
    I guess it might have become key by the point Leto was caught in Namri's web (otherwise he might well have died before Paul). But I don't see how it would necessarily have been key. If Jessica had behaved differently for instance...

    Freakzilla wrote:Such as? Leto was a natural prescient before the spice trance, just like Paul.

    Yet even after the spice trance, Leto was able to selectively refuse prescience so as not to be (fully) trapped. He would only see what was necessary. He would also ruthlessly accept things (other than the metamorphosis) Paul might have refused so as to keep his options open.

    But the other powerful characters created a crisis situation in which it was necessary for him to see much and he ended up (almost) caught in a trap of his own making. Unlike Paul, he took special care not to involve the whole of humanity in the trap but he was personally as good as trapped by his non-trap.

    Freakzilla wrote:Paul's vision WAS a prescient trap, in general.

    Paul's trap was never a trap which constrained Leto. In the same way, the vision of the Guild Navigators didn't constrain Paul.

    Freakzilla wrote:Ghani escaped possession through hypnosis, Leto did not escape it, he integrated all his ancestral personas into his own. What was the BG threat? Once Leto survived the Spice Trance it was pretty much all over for the BG.

    I'm talking about the twins' decision, which was only based on a very partial vision of what was to come. Obviously the spice trance brushed all that away...
    I guess you could dismiss their conversation by saying Leto made this stuff up to manipulate Ghani... but that's obviously not how I read it. As you say, he hid stuff from her. But I don't think he was being so dishonest as to make this stuff up.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 07 Jul 2012 13:05

    Outis wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:I don't know how you can get that from what I posted. It was PAUL that didn't see the extinction, thus didn't see the importance of the metamorphosis.

    The thread's original question wasn't why Paul and Leto made different choices but why Leto's vision was broader.
    I still don't understand how you figure the metamorphosis plays into it. Are you saying that the human Leto was given his vision by the future god Leto or something?


    I believe Leto's prescience was greater because of his Fremen genes.

    Paul didn't chose the metamorphosis because he didn't see the extinction it prevented.

    Freakzilla wrote:Yes, the metamorphosis was the key to both breaking free of the prescient trap Paul had creating and focusing the threads of the future through him to create the GP.

    It was key to the GP obviously.
    But how was it key to breaking free of Paul's vision? The other characters don't act as though they thought it was the only way. Does Herbert state that Leto figured this out somewhere?
    I guess it might have become key by the point Leto was caught in Namri's web (otherwise he might well have died before Paul). But I don't see how it would necessarily have been key. If Jessica had behaved differently for instance...


    The other characters, besides Paul and the pre-born don't really know of the problem of the prescient trap. Leto has to break the threads of the present timelines and create a new one. This is discussed in Leto's flight from Jacurutu and Shulloch.

    Freakzilla wrote:Such as? Leto was a natural prescient before the spice trance, just like Paul.

    Yet even after the spice trance, Leto was able to selectively refuse prescience so as not to be (fully) trapped. He would only see what was necessary. He would also ruthlessly accept things (other than the metamorphosis) Paul might have refused so as to keep his options open.


    Leto only refused more spice essence because every cell in his body was already saturated with spice and he didn't need anymore.

    But the other powerful characters created a crisis situation in which it was necessary for him to see much and he ended up (almost) caught in a trap of his own making. Unlike Paul, he took special care not to involve the whole of humanity in the trap but he was personally as good as trapped by his non-trap.


    Jessica's test for Leto was simply to survive the spice trance and remain sane after integrating all his ancestral personals or die. This was done only because through his pre-born memories he already knew the way of the Gom Jabbar test.

    However, your point about the possibility of the Golden Path being just a bigger, better prescient trap is an excellent one which I've contemplated on many sleepless nights. I've come to belief that while Leto focused all the threads of time through himself durring his lifetime, his 'death' released them into 'infinite' possibilities.

    The GP was actually the opposite of a path. :wink:

    Freakzilla wrote:Paul's vision WAS a prescient trap, in general.

    Paul's trap was never a trap which constrained Leto. In the same way, the vision of the Guild Navigators didn't constrain Paul.


    Paul's vision overlaid Leto's. The text says so. A navigator's prescience was limited and linear, not even in the same ball park as Paul's.

    Freakzilla wrote:Ghani escaped possession through hypnosis, Leto did not escape it, he integrated all his ancestral personas into his own. What was the BG threat? Once Leto survived the Spice Trance it was pretty much all over for the BG.

    I'm talking about the twins' decision, which was only based on a very partial vision of what was to come. Obviously the spice trance brushed all that away...
    I guess you could dismiss their conversation by saying Leto made this stuff up to manipulate Ghani... but that's obviously not how I read it. As you say, he hid stuff from her. But I don't think he was being so dishonest as to make this stuff up.


    No, he didn't make it up. He was having prescient dreams before even taking the spice trance. He just didn't tell her everything.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby gurensan » 07 Jul 2012 17:57

    Freakzilla wrote:I believe Leto's prescience was greater because of his Fremen genes.


    There's that, and he was also raised in a sietch, and thus exposed throughout his entire youth to spice since it was in everything. I wonder if Paul's vision could have been greater if he was sietch-born, too.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 07 Jul 2012 18:20

    Possibly, but I think it's the Fremen connectedness with the race consciousness.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby gurensan » 07 Jul 2012 18:55

    Freakzilla wrote:Possibly, but I think it's the Fremen connectedness with the race consciousness.


    Combo of all of the above, I'm voting. He'd inherited all kinds of good stuff from Chani.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Outis » 07 Jul 2012 20:26

    Freakzilla wrote:Leto has to break the threads of the present timelines and create a new one. This is discussed in Leto's flight from Jacurutu and Shulloch.

    Right. He did that before the metamorphosis so evidently it wasn't needed. He had many other ways to break threads... but perhaps none that also ensured his survival in that particular situation.

    Freakzilla wrote:Leto only refused more spice essence because every cell in his body was already saturated with spice and he didn't need anymore.

    That's not what I'm talking about.
    I'm talking about how reluctantly he actually used his oracular powers, even after the metamorphosis.

    Freakzilla wrote:I've come to belief that while Leto focused all the threads of time through himself durring his lifetime, his 'death' released them into 'infinite' possibilities.

    His death was not the kind of death that shattered the oracle's vision. But he especially avoided looking at what would happen after his death (other than the continuation of the GP which was paramount) so that his vision wouldn't be such a constraint.

    Freakzilla wrote:The GP was actually the opposite of a path.

    A path of no-path, eh?
    http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/loy.htm

    Freakzilla wrote:Jessica's test for Leto was simply to survive the spice trance and remain sane after integrating all his ancestral personals or die. This was done only because through his pre-born memories he already knew the way of the Gom Jabbar test.

    I don't see how the text supports that theory.
    And it hardly matters since Jessica ended up delivering Leto in the hands of people who had entierly different motivations.

    Freakzilla wrote:Paul's vision overlaid Leto's. The text says so. A navigator's prescience was limited and linear, not even in the same ball park as Paul's.

    I'm not sure what you're referring to exactly with "overlaid".

    A Navigator's limited prescience was enough to shield him from Paul's power, and so was Fenring mere latent prescience.
    Paul couldn't even predict the outcome of his encounter with such a weakly prescient agent as Fenring. How then could Leto's power not be sufficient to escape Paul's vision? According to the text, Paul didn't seem to know what his son was actually doing even though they had common visions about what he might do.
    Paul's main advantage over the Guild is that they were so deeply conditioned to avoid risks while he held power over the spice. He had power over them indirectly, through social forces. But how would he control Leto? Alone in the desert, only Arrakis itself had any hold upon the boy (even before the metamorphosis as long as nobody sabotaged his stillsuit). Paul wouldn't have killed his son while Leto could have done it if it came to that.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 07 Jul 2012 20:40

    I'm not in the right frame of mind to discuss this in more detail than this:

    Leto was pre-born with memories of Paul's vision.

    Maybe tomorrow...
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Outis » 07 Jul 2012 21:03

    Yes, of course. Leto was aware of Paul's visions. You could say they shared a vision.
    Furthermore there was a continuity between their visions even after Leto endured the spice trance (being pre-born with Paul memories was not required for this).
    So what?

    The issue is: did Paul's vision merely have a hold on the society Leto lived in due to Paul's political and religious roles (something Leto was potentially well-positioned to break even without the metamorphosis if only he could survive Alia and all the others who feared his coming of age) or did it somehow have a hold on Leto's individual actions as well?
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby ULFsurfer » 07 Jul 2012 21:14

    Ok, long discussion here..
    I can buy that Leto had extra advantages by being a Fremen and continuously exposed to spice from birth, as well as drawing conclusions with the help of the other memories. I'd even add that it must be like having a super computer in your brain with all these humans and the spans of millenia as inputs. By having such first hand experience with history so well over such long time I'm sure it helped Leto drawing his conclusions much better than Paul.
    So, kind of repeating my question here; did he know he had to set humankind in stasis for the next thousands of years before he underwent the spice trance and came to peace with the voices within?

    Oh, btw, I had another question about the trance itself which went by unanswered in another thread (Ch. 31 in CoD reading forum I think). Was it really just Jessica and BG testing him, or was it Alia's agents all along, or did Alia simply know about the BG test of Leto and intervened in her way?
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 07 Jul 2012 21:49

    ULFsurfer wrote:Ok, long discussion here..
    I can buy that Leto had extra advantages by being a Fremen and continuously exposed to spice from birth, as well as drawing conclusions with the help of the other memories. I'd even add that it must be like having a super computer in your brain with all these humans and the spans of millenia as inputs. By having such first hand experience with history so well over such long time I'm sure it helped Leto drawing his conclusions much better than Paul.
    So, kind of repeating my question here; did he know he had to set humankind in stasis for the next thousands of years before he underwent the spice trance and came to peace with the voices within?


    He knew at least in his interview with Jessica:

    "You see, grandmother, I have a difficult decision to make," he said. "Do I
    follow the Atreides mystique? Do I live for my subjects . . . and die for them?
    Or do I choose another course -- one which would permit me to live thousands of
    years?"


    Oh, btw, I had another question about the trance itself which went by unanswered in another thread (Ch. 31 in CoD reading forum I think). Was it really just Jessica and BG testing him, or was it Alia's agents all along, or did Alia simply know about the BG test of Leto and intervened in her way?


    At first Alia wanted Leto to take the spice trance to provide her with prescient visions, by the point of his test she just wanted him dead.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby ULFsurfer » 07 Jul 2012 21:53

    Freakzilla wrote:
    ULFsurfer wrote:Ok, long discussion here..
    I can buy that Leto had extra advantages by being a Fremen and continuously exposed to spice from birth, as well as drawing conclusions with the help of the other memories. I'd even add that it must be like having a super computer in your brain with all these humans and the spans of millenia as inputs. By having such first hand experience with history so well over such long time I'm sure it helped Leto drawing his conclusions much better than Paul.
    So, kind of repeating my question here; did he know he had to set humankind in stasis for the next thousands of years before he underwent the spice trance and came to peace with the voices within?


    He knew at least in his interview with Jessica:

    "You see, grandmother, I have a difficult decision to make," he said. "Do I
    follow the Atreides mystique? Do I live for my subjects . . . and die for them?
    Or do I choose another course -- one which would permit me to live thousands of
    years?"



    Ah yes, now I remember this part. Thanks for pointing it out Freak.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 07 Jul 2012 21:55

    ULFsurfer wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    ULFsurfer wrote:Ok, long discussion here..
    I can buy that Leto had extra advantages by being a Fremen and continuously exposed to spice from birth, as well as drawing conclusions with the help of the other memories. I'd even add that it must be like having a super computer in your brain with all these humans and the spans of millenia as inputs. By having such first hand experience with history so well over such long time I'm sure it helped Leto drawing his conclusions much better than Paul.
    So, kind of repeating my question here; did he know he had to set humankind in stasis for the next thousands of years before he underwent the spice trance and came to peace with the voices within?


    He knew at least in his interview with Jessica:

    "You see, grandmother, I have a difficult decision to make," he said. "Do I
    follow the Atreides mystique? Do I live for my subjects . . . and die for them?
    Or do I choose another course -- one which would permit me to live thousands of
    years?"



    I exist only to serve. :D

    Ah yes, now I remember this part. Thanks for pointing it out Freak.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby MasterOfAssassins » 25 Sep 2012 02:50

    You're over-thinking it; Leto simply made the hard decision(s) that Paul couldn't. And even Leto admits that Ghanima is/was always stronger than him. Paul was too close to the problem and, after Chani died, not strong enough (remember, Paul lost ALL of his visions and never saw Leto in them). Leto realized that humans would always say a thing and do the opposite...they had to have the drudgery of enforced order ground into them over countless generations until they could do nothing but chose to learn to navigate chaos. It was a lesson 'they would feel in their bones' and a fundamental truth Leto could only realize and achieve as the ultimate insider AND outsider. He had to genetically modify humanity- through forced evolution- so they would stop repeating the same 'childish' mistakes they'd been repeating since antiquity. Somebody had to take the long view and he cursed himself with 'holy' hypocrisy Paul found deeply wrong and sickening. Paul knew he wasn't a God and so did Leto, but Leto knew humans would never believe him unless they were so sick of his godhead that they truly DID something about it.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby kindjal » 24 Dec 2012 09:51

    I have undestand that Paul did'nt follow the path because he had two sons instead of the one he forseen.
    And so he judged possible prescience to fail.
    I'm wrong?
    If i think rigth is Leto doing wrong.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Nekhrun » 24 Dec 2012 10:09

    Paul didn't follow the path because he could not bear the burden of it. He wasn't strong enough. Leto was.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 24 Dec 2012 10:11

    Paul didn't see the extinction of humanity in the future, therefor he would have only inflicted his cruelty on the universe just to teach them a lesson, not to save them. His noble upbringing prevented this. Leto however, was born Fremen. He had no difficulty making the tough choices.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby inhuien » 04 Jan 2013 11:48

    kindjal wrote:I have undestand that Paul did'nt follow the path because he had two sons instead of the one he forseen.
    And so he judged possible prescience to fail.

    Chani birthed Leto and Ghanima, Ghanima was to unforeseen daughter. He did have 2 Sons the 1st was born and killed during the Freman rebellion prior to Paul's ascension to the Imperial throne.
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    Re: Evolution of the GP

    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Jan 2013 13:24

    inhuien wrote:
    kindjal wrote:I have undestand that Paul did'nt follow the path because he had two sons instead of the one he forseen.
    And so he judged possible prescience to fail.

    Chani birthed Leto and Ghanima, Ghanima was to unforeseen daughter. He did have 2 Sons the 1st was born and killed during the Freman rebellion prior to Paul's ascension to the Imperial throne.


    It was Leto he didn't see.
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