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    Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

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    Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Frybread » 25 Feb 2013 22:57

    Freakzilla wrote:No revisions.


    This chapter clearly indicates to me that Leto planned his own death.


    I've just finished my third reading of GEoD and I agree.

    SPOILER!















    Especially his decision to change the location of his wedding in a later chapter.
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    Re: Chapter 45

    Postby leagued » 28 Feb 2013 03:37

    I disagree, but I don't have any well-laid out argument; I just don't think that Leto would countenance letting harm come to Hwi that way. Flimsy rationale? Sure but I'm sticking to it.
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    Re: Chapter 45

    Postby Nekhrun » 28 Feb 2013 12:50

    leagued wrote:I disagree, but I don't have any well-laid out argument; I just don't think that Leto would countenance letting harm come to Hwi that way. Flimsy rationale? Sure but I'm sticking to it.

    I can think of may two reasons. If he can't have her then no one can and having her at his side to the end made what he had to do bearable.

    Also, it's possible that since he avoided some of the details surrounding his own demise that he wouldn't have seen her dying either.
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    Re: Chapter 45

    Postby leagued » 02 Mar 2013 01:05

    I think he suspected that Siona and the current Duncan were ripe to be the ones to cause his death and may have even hoped for it; but I don't think he had any prescient visions about dying on the bridge or during his wedding peregrination, otherwise he would have traveled w/out Hwi. That's my impression of how he felt toward Hwi anyway.
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    Re: Did Leto II Pan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 02 Mar 2013 01:51

    SPLIT FROM READING GROUP AS SPOILER...

    I believe that Leto did not See his death, but he did know who the players would be. He obviously set up the peregrination so that they would all meet up while he was crossing the bridge.
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    Re: Did Leto II Pan His Own Death?

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 02 Mar 2013 02:41

    Freakzilla wrote:He obviously set up the peregrination so that they would all meet up while he was crossing the bridge.


    What makes you say this? I can't quite recall, I don't have the book handy, and I can't find a PDF online... Maybe the Golden Path was set (and had been set for quite some time) and he was just busy living. Hmm... I'm not sure. One of the moments in the series that stands out to me is where they're falling from the bridge and Syanoq comes up. Moneo says something like he finally understands, like in the moment of his death he is finally living. Maybe Leto felt the same thing, and had felt it for some time. It may be that he did not foresee his own death. If the the Golden Path was set, well, you know... He could finally move on with his own life, worm-god that he was... I'm gonna go to sleep, and if you respond to this post, I mostly care about the part in bold. Thank you.
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    Re: Chapter 45

    Postby SandRider » 02 Mar 2013 02:57

    Nekhrun wrote:
    leagued wrote:I disagree, but I don't have any well-laid out argument; I just don't think that Leto would countenance letting harm come to Hwi that way. Flimsy rationale? Sure but I'm sticking to it.

    I can think of may two reasons. If he can't have her then no one can and having her at his side to the end made what he had to do bearable.

    Also, it's possible that since he avoided some of the details surrounding his own demise that he wouldn't have seen her dying either.


    :text-yeahthat:

    w/ the exception that I would remove
    "If he can't have her then no one can"

    I donot believe Leto II was that possessive ...

    "having her at his side to the end made what he had to do bearable."
    I will buy for a dollar ...

    "it's possible that since he avoided some of the details surrounding his own demise that he wouldn't have seen her dying either."
    = spot-on ....


    but, @leagueD: I understand your POV & agree it may be valid ....


    deep-questions like these show how much we lost w/ Frank's death;
    if he were still alive, like Spinrad or the other old fuckers, we could
    ask him directly ..... of course, had he lived, he would have written
    Dune7 (and/or 8 or 9) by now, & our questions & speculations would
    be moot ...
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    Re: Did Leto II Pan His Own Death?

    Postby SandRider » 02 Mar 2013 02:59

    also: it's 2am in West Texas, and I am super-fucking bourbon-drunk ...

    so, here's a test:
    will I remember posting the above or not?

    only time (&and the Oracle) knows fo' sho' ...
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    Re: Did Leto II Pan His Own Death?

    Postby lotek » 02 Mar 2013 05:22

    Leto II jumped from the frying pan into the river.
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    Re: Did Leto II Pan His Own Death?

    Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 07 Mar 2013 22:06

    I think Leto II was counting on Duncan, Siona, and his sleeper agent to assassinate him, but I don't think he saw Hwi getting killed before him... If only Duncan checked everything before going all out on Leto, instead of demolishing Leto's spy for doing what Duncan commanded her to do... I'm certain that Leto II was preparing himself for death soon, but overestimated his ability to see everything and could not see the probability of Hwi being in danger.

    I feel bad for Leto's lack of a love life. Sahib would have been his first girlfriend if he hadn't chosen the Golden Path instead, and Hwi would've loved him physically if he hadn't decided to become an enormous sand annelid with a face. Hwi just cheats on him with Idaho Ghola # something-something, and then she dies after telling him that she'll love him spiritually... Siona would've made a feisty girlfriend, but she totally hated Leto's guts, and helped ruin her life...

    Can't Leto II ever find true love?
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    Re: Did Leto II Pan His Own Death?

    Postby lotek » 08 Mar 2013 08:34

    lotek wrote:Leto II jumped from the frying pan into the river.


    Can we change the title to "pLan his own death"?

    Pease ?
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    Re: Did Leto II Pan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 08 Mar 2013 10:56

    lotek wrote:
    lotek wrote:Leto II jumped from the frying pan into the river.


    Can we change the title to "pLan his own death"?

    Pease ?


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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby lotek » 08 Mar 2013 12:32

    :whistle:
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Deskepticon » 22 Mar 2013 01:50

    "Planned" his death implies he had a conscious desire to fall from the bridge. Like Pauls visions of death I dont think Leto knew exactly what was going to happen on the peregrination. He only peeked ahead to the future to insure the GP endured. If he had died away from water the GP would falter. He likely saw this and had he not changed the wedding destination I venture Siona would have killed him away from water. He acted only on his desire to save humanity.

    Technically though. . . Leto has always planned to die. Ever since the end of CoD - but you were referring to a specific plan.
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    Re: Chapter 45

    Postby Deskepticon » 22 Mar 2013 02:10

    Nekhrun wrote:I can think of may two reasons. If he can't have her then no one can and having her at his side to the end made what he had to do bearable.


    Thats just sadistic. Its the equivilent of a murder/suicide if you believe Leto actually planned for it to happen. A premeditated one at that. It doesnt explain his genuine anger as he watched her fall to her death. He should have felt elation. I dont buy it.

    Also, it's possible that since he avoided some of the details surrounding his own demise that he wouldn't have seen her dying either.


    Weak. If he planned to die at the bridge he would not have her sit on the cart with him as he crossed it. Leto knew he had to die near water. Tuono was not near water - the bridge was the only spot if you believe he planned to die on peregrination. Not buyin it.
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    Re: Chapter 45

    Postby Nekhrun » 22 Mar 2013 11:37

    Deskepticon wrote:
    Nekhrun wrote:I can think of may two reasons. If he can't have her then no one can and having her at his side to the end made what he had to do bearable.


    Thats just sadistic. Its the equivilent of a murder/suicide if you believe Leto actually planned for it to happen. A premeditated one at that. It doesnt explain his genuine anger as he watched her fall to her death. He should have felt elation. I dont buy it.

    You don't have to. Saying that he should've felt elation is quite a stretch. Even to say he would've been happy would be wrong. I'm only guessing at possible reasons to answer the question.

    Deskepticon wrote:
    Also, it's possible that since he avoided some of the details surrounding his own demise that he wouldn't have seen her dying either.

    Weak. If he planned to die at the bridge he would not have her sit on the cart with him as he crossed it. Leto knew he had to die near water. Tuono was not near water - the bridge was the only spot if you believe he planned to die on peregrination. Not buyin it.

    Weak? This is the one of the strongest possibilities. I'm not saying he planned to die there. Only that he avoided details surrounding his own death so long as they coincided with his Golden Path. Since he would've been surprised by the event itself, he wouldn't have seen Hwi there either.
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    Re: Chapter 45

    Postby Deskepticon » 23 Mar 2013 09:14

    Nekhrun wrote:You don't have to. Saying that he should've felt elation is quite a stretch. Even to say he would've been happy would be wrong. I'm only guessing at possible reasons to answer the question.

    I agree, it is a stretch. But no more than saying Leto was more willing to die with Hwi by his side. The opposite is more likely. Leto was willing to abandon the GP if he could have found a way to become human again and be with Hwi.

    Supposing he did plan to die on peregrination, and Hwi's presence strengthened his resolve, the moment of his death would be welcomed since it would propagate the GP. Instead we see Leto angry and terrified.

    I argue he did not plan to die on-route to his wedding - he was simply following a course where the GP remained in his vision.
    Also, it's possible that since he avoided some of the details surrounding his own demise that he wouldn't have seen her dying either. . .

    . . . I'm not saying he planned to die there. Only that he avoided details surrounding his own death so long as they coincided with his Golden Path. Since he would've been surprised by the event itself, he wouldn't have seen Hwi there either.


    I agree he would not have seen his own death, and tacitly Hwi's. But the topic of this thread is "Did Leto PLAN his own death." Your post suggested he did. I disagree.

    As I said he would have to die near water or the GP fails. Therefore he would have had to "plan" to die near water - the Idaho river being the only source on-route. Leto would not have endangered Hwi if he was expecting violence near the river.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 23 Mar 2013 22:14

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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Madness » 01 Apr 2013 21:11

    I've happened across this place because of discussion at Westeros and I can't really help but dive in. It's so nice to find a contemporary community of the Orthodoxy.

    *cough* explicative brian *cough*

    Freakzilla wrote: I believe that Leto did not See his death, but he did know who the players would be. He obviously set up the peregrination so that they would all meet up while he was crossing the bridge.


    +1 - I'd go so far as to suggest that, before the Scattering, Leto's been trying to fulfill the circumstances of his demise by these parties (Duncan, rebels, no-gene variant) for a few millenia.

    Deskepticon wrote:"Planned" his death implies he had a conscious desire to fall from the bridge. Like Pauls visions of death I dont think Leto knew exactly what was going to happen on the peregrination. He only peeked ahead to the future to insure the GP endured. If he had died away from water the GP would falter. He likely saw this and had he not changed the wedding destination I venture Siona would have killed him away from water. He acted only on his desire to save humanity.

    Technically though. . . Leto has always planned to die. Ever since the end of CoD - but you were referring to a specific plan.


    If the ambiguity is too much, I'll dig up my copies, but I'm almost positive the exactitude of Leto's choice to one day die in the throes of transfiguration is discussed when he confronts the Preacher/Paul in COD.

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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 02 Apr 2013 05:11

    Ghanima tells Farad'n about Leto's plan at the end of CoD.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby magdalen » 06 Jun 2013 10:16

    he planned some of it, but he couldn't "see" Hwi Noree or Siona in his prescient vision. he could set up the circumstances, but had no way of knowing for sure anything about the actions or outcomes of those two.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 06 Jun 2013 15:19

    He could see Hwi, just not her birth since it occured inside a no-field.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Nameless Swordsman » 07 Jun 2013 11:26

    Interesting. :think:
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 07 Jun 2013 13:37

    I thought giving Nayla the lasgun and ordering her to obey Siona made it pretty obvious.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Nameless Swordsman » 18 Jun 2013 19:15

    Freakzilla wrote:I thought giving Nayla the lasgun and ordering her to obey Siona made it pretty obvious.


    It's been ten years since I read CoD; I've been very busy since then with work and studies, so there are some things I had forgotten. :P

    Regardless, I love Leto II so I just really enjoy to see people discuss him. :D
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