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    Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 19 Jun 2013 07:07

    I try to read the series once a year.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Nameless Swordsman » 19 Jun 2013 15:00

    I really wish I had more time to read..
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Robspierre » 19 Jun 2013 15:41

    Nameless Swordsman wrote:I really wish I had more time to read..




    Get the audio versions....

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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Nameless Swordsman » 19 Jun 2013 17:21

    Robspierre wrote:
    Nameless Swordsman wrote:I really wish I had more time to read..




    Get the audio versions....

    Rob


    Good idea! Thanks! :D
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Sardaukar Capt » 22 Aug 2013 13:56

    My 2 cents:

    I just finished GEoD last night. Probably my 5th or 6th read of it over the years. I think Hwi knew Leto II's end was near just as Leto II did. They both sensed it even if Leto didn't outright view the details. You can see how they allude to it through all their discussions particularly at the end about how Hwi finally made it bearable for him to keep following the path. Her existence was to make his bearable. And you can see she chose to stay with him and give her love to him for that reason. To give him the strength when we can clearly see Leto II wavering during some points in the book because while he may not have looked for the exact moment, he sensed it was near with all the players in place. Siona, the key to his Golden Path finally achieved and her sensitization of the GP along with her new knowledge of the danger water posed to him, his bonding of Nayla to Siona and the new Duncan arriving. I think he knew everything was coming to the final confluence until it all burst out into the Golden Path.

    I believe in a sense he did plan his own death by putting so many things in place and so many wheels in motion. That much is pretty evident when Moneo sends Duncan, Siona, & Nayla off to Tuono to be away from the wedding and once Leto learns of this he switches the wedding to Tuono. He knows the players are in place even if he doesn't know the how and when. And I think there is some fatalistic significance also in the same moment he tells Moneo that Hwi will wear Chani's water rings instead of Ghanima's since his mother died giving birth to him and his sister.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby SadisticCynic » 23 Aug 2013 09:33

    Sardaukar Capt wrote:And I think there is some fatalistic significance also in the same moment he tells Moneo that Hwi will wear Chani's water rings instead of Ghanima's since his mother died giving birth to him and his sister.


    Oh! I like that! :)
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby pdderek » 31 Oct 2013 14:53

    Leto planned his own death ONLY in the sense that he created a plan that would eventually end in his demise because of the peoples he created. His plan was to be "surprised" and he was.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby zzzz » 04 Nov 2014 17:33

    I think Leto II planned his death, because he needed to die in the water for the GP to succeed.

    Also, he most probably knew that Hwi is going to die (read the quote below). She probably needed to be sacrificed because Duncan would choose her over Siona or maybe he would have had problems with attaining fish speakers on his side because he had a "wife"...

    *********"Ahhh, yes." She pirouetted for him then, displaying her new gown. "Do you like it? Your Fish Speakers gave it to me. They decorated it themselves."

    "My love," he said, a warning note in his voice, "decoration! That is how you prepare the sacrifice."

    She came up to the edge of the cart and leaned on it just below his face, a mock solemn expression on her lips. "Will they sacrifice me, then?"

    "Some of them would like to."

    "But you will not permit it."

    "Our fates are joined," he said.*************++
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Sleels » 23 Nov 2014 01:42

    Currently on one of my re-reads through Heretics and just found this that supports Leto planning his death.

    "Abrupt revelation locked Odrade's mind. She understood the warning. The Tyrant had died at a place of his own choosing. Many deaths had left their imprint on that place but his was the greatest. The Tyrant chose his peregrination route with purpose. Sheeana had not told her worm to go there. It moved that way of its own volition. The magnet of the Tyrant's endless dream drew it back to the place where the dream began."
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 30 Nov 2014 19:42

    I wouldn't say he planned it but he certainly put all the pieces in the right place at the right time.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Smiley » 18 Dec 2014 16:14

    Just a thought: in GEoD Leto speaks of a part of himself that just reacts. Moneo called it the Worm. Perhaps the decision to go to Tuono was made from his subconcious?

    I have the feeling that Hwi Noree could have corrupted him. Not a corruption of power, but of love. He may have come to a point where he had to decide between her and doing something that needed to be done. Deep down he knew that and did not want to face that possibility.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby georgiedenbro » 18 Dec 2014 17:57

    Smiley wrote:Just a thought: in GEoD Leto speaks of a part of himself that just reacts. Moneo called it the Worm. Perhaps the decision to go to Tuono was made from his subconcious?

    I have the feeling that Hwi Noree could have corrupted him. Not a corruption of power, but of love. He may have come to a point where he had to decide between her and doing something that needed to be done. Deep down he knew that and did not want to face that possibility.


    Maybe you're right, since this is exactly what happened to Paul.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Smiley » 18 Dec 2014 18:48

    True, but Paul made that choice consciously. In fact, he seems to have seen a future with him being trapped somehow and Chani not giving birth was stalling it or keeping her alive, anyway. All we know for sure on Leto is that he was all happy Moneo actually made an independant decision and then decided to be wed in Tuono, with no direct explanation for the choice given.


    On the first read, could not believe Leto was so stupid. I was thinking he wanted to keep Hwi around for a while. When I finished the book I saw the purpose in the decision, but I question where the decision came from. Just not sure I can come around to "he planned to die that day" line of thinking, but I can see that it was a needed choice to fufill the Golden Path, or he just reacted.

    And come to think of it, could the oracle be seperate from the person? Like a guiding force of somekind pulling the prescient along once they have made a choice? Or do they have a choice?
    (I am thinking along the lines of the Giver and Taker bit not anything from the prequels, just in case that is not clear)
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 19 Dec 2014 08:02

    Another thing to consider is that he had to die near water, so...

    Although, I always thought the Duniverse would be better off without the spice and I'm not sure how it was essential to the GP.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby georgiedenbro » 19 Dec 2014 11:12

    Freakzilla wrote:Another thing to consider is that he had to die near water, so...

    Although, I always thought the Duniverse would be better off without the spice and I'm not sure how it was essential to the GP.


    Honestly I think this is the part where the philosophical underpinning of spice and its literal effects in the story start to uncouple in the last few books. It's necessary for humanity insofar as spice is a metaphor for the changes in life and the possibility of new experiences and choices. Spice is a stand-in for the products of sexual reproduction, where the 'excretions' (which I believe are sexual excretions) of a worm (i.e. a penis) are mixed with water (i.e. a uteran substitute), fertilized by little sandtrout, and which then 'explodes out' to leave the spice on the surface (i.e. a birth). So by virtue of spice representing the reproductive cycle, which is the physical underpinning of life as change, spice is therefore essential for man's well-being. Literally, as a drug that does certain things to people it is not quite as essential, especially not after the INM's are developed. There is still the geriatric effect, which I think would be enough to make it the #1 commodity in the universe (I'm sure that effect is why nobles wanted it, and not because they wanted to be Navigators as a hobby); but in theory they still could live without the geriatric effect.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Smiley » 19 Dec 2014 15:14

    It's all about penis....

    two possibilities that I can see, story wise.

    One is that restarting spice cycle was needed to end the famine times. Give people time to get more INMs built and such. Also could have made the Fish speakers go nuts unless they were convinced God wasn't dead, or spice hoard fights would endanger things.

    Option two is that the BG were partially right and Leto did have an oracle hold on the universe and he needed to maintain that for a while. Or the worms needed as a reminder of the lesson for a while.

    He also made natural spice harder to get with clever worms. Maybe he was trying to encourage innovation?
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby D Pope » 19 Dec 2014 15:32

    Therein squats the toad.
    I didn't think Ix had perfected non-guild space travel yet. Without spice,
    I doubt there would've been a transition from famine to scattering.


    edit
    (Looks like you posted it before I could.)
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Smiley » 19 Dec 2014 17:46

    Well, great minds and all that, hopefully.
    Do we know the length of time between the famine times and the scattering?

    And no offense intended to georgie, I just think there is an in story explanation here with a little bit of speculation. And yes I do have a somewhat puerile mind.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Dec 2014 16:43

    georgiedenbro wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Another thing to consider is that he had to die near water, so...

    Although, I always thought the Duniverse would be better off without the spice and I'm not sure how it was essential to the GP.


    Honestly I think this is the part where the philosophical underpinning of spice and its literal effects in the story start to uncouple in the last few books. It's necessary for humanity insofar as spice is a metaphor for the changes in life and the possibility of new experiences and choices. Spice is a stand-in for the products of sexual reproduction, where the 'excretions' (which I believe are sexual excretions) of a worm (i.e. a penis) are mixed with water (i.e. a uteran substitute), fertilized by little sandtrout, and which then 'explodes out' to leave the spice on the surface (i.e. a birth). So by virtue of spice representing the reproductive cycle, which is the physical underpinning of life as change, spice is therefore essential for man's well-being. Literally, as a drug that does certain things to people it is not quite as essential, especially not after the INM's are developed. There is still the geriatric effect, which I think would be enough to make it the #1 commodity in the universe (I'm sure that effect is why nobles wanted it, and not because they wanted to be Navigators as a hobby); but in theory they still could live without the geriatric effect.


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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby georgiedenbro » 21 Dec 2014 00:50

    Freakzilla wrote:Damn you, George. I can't read that much into it.


    I think that's part of the greatness of Frank's writing and storytelling. He put several layers of meaning into everything, and you can take or leave any of them and the story still stands and is awesome. So we can take spice cycle as a metaphor for the reproductive cycle; ok big deal, but you don't need to know that and yet the imagery sort of still leaves a seed in your imagination and the story speaks for itself. That he wove that metaphor into the story doesn't even need to be recognized consciously for it to have its effect, but I happen to enjoy analysis and so it pleases me to find these things and to feel reverence for the author.

    But in the case of spice, I think you're right that the literal reasons for it being needed after GEoD begin to feel a little flimsy, which is why I offered the metaphoric explanation this time. Frank may have had both in his mind and maybe felt that abandoning it would make the books not feel like Dune any more. Maybe in book 7 he was going to leave it behind once and for all; who knows.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Dec 2014 10:03

    georgiedenbro wrote:But in the case of spice, I think you're right that the literal reasons for it being needed after GEoD begin to feel a little flimsy, which is why I offered the metaphoric explanation this time. Frank may have had both in his mind and maybe felt that abandoning it would make the books not feel like Dune any more. Maybe in book 7 he was going to leave it behind once and for all; who knows.


    I think that would have been hard to do with the BG seeding countless worlds with sandtrout. Maybe in the future it would be so common that it wouldn't be a source of power?
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby georgiedenbro » 22 Dec 2014 12:10

    Freakzilla wrote:
    georgiedenbro wrote:But in the case of spice, I think you're right that the literal reasons for it being needed after GEoD begin to feel a little flimsy, which is why I offered the metaphoric explanation this time. Frank may have had both in his mind and maybe felt that abandoning it would make the books not feel like Dune any more. Maybe in book 7 he was going to leave it behind once and for all; who knows.


    I think that would have been hard to do with the BG seeding countless worlds with sandtrout. Maybe in the future it would be so common that it wouldn't be a source of power?


    Maybe so. Or maybe there would be a discovery of a new powerful drug. Or maybe the BT biotech could be expanded on, where any woman could be outfitted to have her womb produce spice for her on demand. Endless possibilities...
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Frybread » 29 Jan 2015 14:22

    I also think the Duniverse would be better off without the spice. While it does have a host of positive health effects, it is highly addictive. We can read how painful it is for the Bene Gesserit to wake up in the morning after a full 8-10 hours of not having taken the spice. I think it could eventually be replaced by technology (cybernetic and/or gene therapy) without the addiction.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 30 Jan 2015 07:36

    Or the T-probe agony ala Miles Teg to awaken Other Memory. But then they could only Share in extreme circumstances.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby D Pope » 30 Jan 2015 14:03

    georgiedenbro wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    georgiedenbro wrote:But in the case of spice, I think you're right that the literal reasons for it being needed after GEoD begin to feel a little flimsy, which is why I offered the metaphoric explanation this time. Frank may have had both in his mind and maybe felt that abandoning it would make the books not feel like Dune any more. Maybe in book 7 he was going to leave it behind once and for all; who knows.


    I think that would have been hard to do with the BG seeding countless worlds with sandtrout. Maybe in the future it would be so common that it wouldn't be a source of power?


    Maybe so. Or maybe there would be a discovery of a new powerful drug. Or maybe the BT biotech could be expanded on, where any woman could be outfitted to have her womb produce spice for her on demand. Endless possibilities...

    In Dune, when Jessica transformed the water of life, her consciousness was
    reduced to mote-dom and she was able to manipulate a single molecule that
    catalyzed a change in the whole. How could someone with such ability ever
    become addicted to anything -or- ever need a substance that they couldn't
    simply produce? However rare and exotic the Spice may be, it's still made
    from elements that shouldn't be that hard to find.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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