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    Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 02 Feb 2015 06:45

    I'd guess that altering it's addictive properties might take away its benefits.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby georgiedenbro » 02 Feb 2015 15:08

    If BG develop a physical addiction to spice, all altering spice's molecular structure would do is deprive them of the drug their body needs without dealing with the addiction. I guess we should assume the spice forms a bond with the body's basic workings in more than a cursory way such as what nicotine does. Nicotine is irrelevant for the body's function but happens to create an addiction; if spice works its way into your system and becomes essential for the body's actual function then I guess the addiction wouldn't be something you could kick.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby JasonJD48 » 05 Feb 2015 16:21

    Back on the topic of Leto planning his death. I think it's obvious he did.

    He says he's 'pregnant with his empire and will die giving birth to it', he talks about him personally restarting the spice cycle with his death. He puts Duncan, Siona and Nayla exactly where they need to be, intent on destroying him, with gun in hand. He couldn't have orchestrated it any clearer except by literally saying "fuck this, I'm out" and throwing himself in the water.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby D Pope » 05 Feb 2015 17:23

    georgiedenbro wrote:If BG develop a physical addiction to spice, all altering spice's molecular structure would do is deprive them of the drug their body needs without dealing with the addiction. I guess we should assume the spice forms a bond with the body's basic workings in more than a cursory way such as what nicotine does. Nicotine is irrelevant for the body's function but happens to create an addiction; if spice works its way into your system and becomes essential for the body's actual function then I guess the addiction wouldn't be something you could kick.

    Ok, I know nothing about how addiction works. That said, if you've the ability to manipulate
    a single molecule, why couldn't you 'zoom out' and deal with cells? I can't imagine a scenario
    where that kind of ability could be trumped by any chemical addiction.

    Nueroreceptor craving? Switch it off.
    Induced chemical imbalance? Recalibrate.

    I didn't mean to imply that they could merely manipulate the spice, I wondered if they could
    manufacture their own by assembling it one atom at a time if necessary.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby D Pope » 05 Feb 2015 17:28

    JasonJD48 wrote:Back on the topic of Leto planning his death. I think it's obvious he did.

    He says he's 'pregnant with his empire and will die giving birth to it', he talks about him personally restarting the spice cycle with his death. He puts Duncan, Siona and Nayla exactly where they need to be, intent on destroying him, with gun in hand. He couldn't have orchestrated it any clearer except by literally saying "fuck this, I'm out" and throwing himself in the water.

    The Nayla argument pushes me off the fence though I wouldn't say he planned it as much
    as encouraged the possibility. I can't see him cutting out when he's just gotten the surprise
    of his life in Hwi.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby JasonJD48 » 05 Feb 2015 17:32

    D Pope wrote:
    JasonJD48 wrote:Back on the topic of Leto planning his death. I think it's obvious he did.

    He says he's 'pregnant with his empire and will die giving birth to it', he talks about him personally restarting the spice cycle with his death. He puts Duncan, Siona and Nayla exactly where they need to be, intent on destroying him, with gun in hand. He couldn't have orchestrated it any clearer except by literally saying "fuck this, I'm out" and throwing himself in the water.

    The Nayla argument pushes me off the fence though I wouldn't say he planned it as much
    as encouraged the possibility. I can't see him cutting out when he's just gotten the surprise
    of his life in Hwi.


    On the contrary, I think Hwi was exactly why he had to do it then. She was too much a threat to the Golden Path, she was raising too much emotion in him.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby georgiedenbro » 05 Feb 2015 18:03

    JasonJD48 wrote:
    D Pope wrote:
    JasonJD48 wrote:Back on the topic of Leto planning his death. I think it's obvious he did.

    He says he's 'pregnant with his empire and will die giving birth to it', he talks about him personally restarting the spice cycle with his death. He puts Duncan, Siona and Nayla exactly where they need to be, intent on destroying him, with gun in hand. He couldn't have orchestrated it any clearer except by literally saying "fuck this, I'm out" and throwing himself in the water.

    The Nayla argument pushes me off the fence though I wouldn't say he planned it as much
    as encouraged the possibility. I can't see him cutting out when he's just gotten the surprise
    of his life in Hwi.


    On the contrary, I think Hwi was exactly why he had to do it then. She was too much a threat to the Golden Path, she was raising too much emotion in him.


    Yup. They had effectively 'bested' him with Hwi, as planned, but they were too late. They would likely have won if the Golden Path hadn't already been secured in every way but his death. In a sense it really came down to the wire in the end, even though the plan was thousands of years in the making. I think that fact wasn't entirely clear to me on my last reading, and I'll keep it in mind when I read it again soon.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby JasonJD48 » 05 Feb 2015 18:12

    georgiedenbro wrote:
    JasonJD48 wrote:
    D Pope wrote:
    JasonJD48 wrote:Back on the topic of Leto planning his death. I think it's obvious he did.

    He says he's 'pregnant with his empire and will die giving birth to it', he talks about him personally restarting the spice cycle with his death. He puts Duncan, Siona and Nayla exactly where they need to be, intent on destroying him, with gun in hand. He couldn't have orchestrated it any clearer except by literally saying "fuck this, I'm out" and throwing himself in the water.

    The Nayla argument pushes me off the fence though I wouldn't say he planned it as much
    as encouraged the possibility. I can't see him cutting out when he's just gotten the surprise
    of his life in Hwi.


    On the contrary, I think Hwi was exactly why he had to do it then. She was too much a threat to the Golden Path, she was raising too much emotion in him.


    Yup. They had effectively 'bested' him with Hwi, as planned, but they were too late. They would likely have won if the Golden Path hadn't already been secured in every way but his death. In a sense it really came down to the wire in the end, even though the plan was thousands of years in the making. I think that fact wasn't entirely clear to me on my last reading, and I'll keep it in mind when I read it again soon.


    Indeed, I think either way he didn't have long to live, though if Hwi hadn't come about, he'd have probably spent a few more years ensuring some details.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 29 Jul 2015 15:02

    I definitely do not think Leto II planned his own death, and definitely did not foresee it.

    I do think he was at a point where he could now die and the Golden Path would continue since he had achieved Siona. I do not count any comments he made about his impending death to necessarily mean it was coming soon, because what is time to Leto? If this Duncan failed, the next one or the next one or the next one would succeed. To kill Leto might have been one of the Duncan's primary purposes. He knew he must die on the sand, and that was the only qualifier to ensure the Golden Path. I believe if he KNEW of this assassination, he would have stopped it, which may be one of the reasons he refused to know. If at any time his death threatened the Golden Path he WOULD have known and prevented it, such as the attempt by the previous Duncan.
    (edit don't have my book, but something to the tune of:
    In front of truthsayers: Duncan says"why do you need me?" Leto replies "because you obey."
    We know Duncan doesn't always obey Leto.
    Somewhere else Leto talks about how what he has created is in direct violation to Duncan's sense of morality.
    So what is it Duncan obeys?)
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Spice Must Flow » 29 Jul 2015 15:10

    JasonJD48 wrote:
    D Pope wrote:
    JasonJD48 wrote:Back on the topic of Leto planning his death. I think it's obvious he did.

    He says he's 'pregnant with his empire and will die giving birth to it', he talks about him personally restarting the spice cycle with his death. He puts Duncan, Siona and Nayla exactly where they need to be, intent on destroying him, with gun in hand. He couldn't have orchestrated it any clearer except by literally saying "fuck this, I'm out" and throwing himself in the water.

    The Nayla argument pushes me off the fence though I wouldn't say he planned it as much
    as encouraged the possibility. I can't see him cutting out when he's just gotten the surprise
    of his life in Hwi.


    On the contrary, I think Hwi was exactly why he had to do it then. She was too much a threat to the Golden Path, she was raising too much emotion in him.

    This I'll have to think about, but my truth sense tells me you're on to something. My bible is somewhere in a storage unit. Is there any text to support this?
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Captain_Cackwurst » 31 Jul 2015 10:17

    JasonJD48 wrote: She was too much a threat to the Golden Path, she was raising too much emotion in him.



    How was this a thread? Because he feared he could not work rationally enough anymore?

    Also, an off-topic question: What really was the Ixians plan for Hwi? Just to make him unstable due to emotion?
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 31 Jul 2015 12:56

    Captain_Cackwurst wrote:
    JasonJD48 wrote: She was too much a threat to the Golden Path, she was raising too much emotion in him.



    How was this a thread? Because he feared he could not work rationally enough anymore?

    Also, an off-topic question: What really was the Ixians plan for Hwi? Just to make him unstable due to emotion?


    Just to hurt and weaken him I suppose.

    As for the original topic, I recently reread GEoD and while Leto certainly didn't plan his own death, he did put all the pieces into place. Once Siona was tested and the INM and no-tech was scattered, the instant Moneo told him where Siona and Duncan were he immediately changed that to the place of his wedding. Nayla was given a lasgun (an honor) and had a standing order to obey Siona.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby inhuien » 01 Aug 2015 09:20

    I've always thought that she would have been killed or hurt in someway to distract and undermine Leto, make him vulnerable to attack.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 01 Aug 2015 11:54

    inhuien wrote:I've always thought that she would have been killed or hurt in someway to distract and undermine Leto, make him vulnerable to attack.


    Which it did.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby inhuien » 01 Aug 2015 12:54

    Freakzilla wrote:
    inhuien wrote:I've always thought that she would have been killed or hurt in someway to distract and undermine Leto, make him vulnerable to attack.


    Which it did.


    That explains it then.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby georgiedenbro » 25 Sep 2015 15:03

    Freakzilla wrote:As for the original topic, I recently reread GEoD and while Leto certainly didn't plan his own death, he did put all the pieces into place. Once Siona was tested and the INM and no-tech was scattered, the instant Moneo told him where Siona and Duncan were he immediately changed that to the place of his wedding. Nayla was given a lasgun (an honor) and had a standing order to obey Siona.


    I just finished another reading of it last night (I couldn't make myself finish the Reading Group entries, sorry...) and I agree with you. He never planned in advance of the contents of the book where he would die, and he even spoke at times about the future of his transformation and how he dreaded it. But once he tested Siona and knew she was what he was breeding for, and at the same time knew the INM was in development, he knew it was the right time. I believe it was during the scene where Malky was being killed that Leto imagined jumping off a ledge and dying, and he sees the Golden Path blink in and out of existence due to lack of water below. His very next act, more or less, is to change to wedding location to Tuono. I don't think he merely decided at this point that it would be a good time to die, but he even contemplated the exact nature and location of the death; falling down a precipice, over water, on the bridge to Tuono. He may not have know for sure they would really go through with it, but he at least set things up to give them every chance to do it then and there. If they failed to do so he'd have had to give them another chance at a time of his choosing that would keep the Golden Path open.

    As far as Hwi goes, I think her main function was to weaken Leto and make him vulnerable. What the Ixians didn't realize was that by weakening him they threatened the Golden Path, which would not be in their interest to do. But since they had no idea his purpose was a noble one they naturally thought that sabotaging his resolve could only help them. Leto solved this by both accepting her and also still pursuing the Golden Path. This necessitated her dying along with him, and because of this I would say that Leto accepting Hwi's love was the one selfish indulgence he allowed himself that was not strictly necessary. After 3,500 years I guess we could give him some leeway to be a little selfish, just a his father was for his own love.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 25 Sep 2015 23:09

    :clap:
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby PanCotzky » 15 Jan 2016 09:17

    Well... The fact that Leto knew that he will die was pretty obvious from the very beginning of the book. In his conversation with Maneo he said clearly that he will die and that the time for it has come. That it will happen soon. That was in the first half of the book. At the end of the book everything was hinting at the fact that he will die. And not just in the story. When he asked Hwi if she agrees to be with him 'til the very end and she agreed. That was a direct hint on the fact that he didn't only knew that he will die, but he also offered Hwi to die with him. And yes, that was totally planned because as you can remember he planned Duncan to mate with Siona. That was a part of the Golden Path. If Hwi survived Duncan wouldn't even think about mating with Siona. So, Hwi had to die.

    That was also the reason why he was mad about Duncan and Hwi. Not only because of jealousy but also because of the fact that now Hwi has to die.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Cordwainer Smith » 17 Aug 2016 14:30

    PanCotzky wrote:Well... The fact that Leto knew that he will die was pretty obvious from the very beginning of the book. In his conversation with Maneo he said clearly that he will die and that the time for it has come. That it will happen soon. That was in the first half of the book. At the end of the book everything was hinting at the fact that he will die. And not just in the story. When he asked Hwi if she agrees to be with him 'til the very end and she agreed. That was a direct hint on the fact that he didn't only knew that he will die, but he also offered Hwi to die with him. And yes, that was totally planned because as you can remember he planned Duncan to mate with Siona. That was a part of the Golden Path. If Hwi survived Duncan wouldn't even think about mating with Siona. So, Hwi had to die.

    That was also the reason why he was mad about Duncan and Hwi. Not only because of jealousy but also because of the fact that now Hwi has to die.


    totally agree with this. I'm in a re-reading and it's more and more obvious for me that that all the conversations between Leto and Hwi converge to the resignation that she, alive, is a threat for the GP. She willingly accept to die with him.

    I might add another element that struck me, that I haven't read in this thread before. When Leto tests Siona (chapter 44, one of my favorites), just after the moment he realize she has seen him vulnerable to water, he made this observation to himself:

    He saw the flame of rebellion return to her eyes. She did not have to feel
    guilty or dependent. She no longer could avoid belief in his Golden Path, but
    what difference did that make? His cruelties could not be forgiven! She could
    reject him, deny him a place in her family. He was not a human, not like her at
    all. And she possessed the secret of his undoing! Ring him with water, destroy
    his desert, immobilize him within a moat
    of agony! Did she think she hid her thoughts from him by turning away?
    And what can I do about it? he wondered. She must live now while I must
    demonstrate nonviolence.


    It's clear for me that at this moment he knows precisely when and whom will kill him.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby georgiedenbro » 17 Aug 2016 15:20

    Good posts. I think you guys got it.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 17 Aug 2016 16:56

    I still don't think he planned his own death. He certainly set the pieces in place to favor it. But he seemed to be under almost constant attack, especially from the Duncans. All had to do was not prevent it.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby georgiedenbro » 17 Aug 2016 21:42

    Freakzilla wrote:I still don't think he planned his own death. He certainly set the pieces in place to favor it. But he seemed to be under almost constant attack, especially from the Duncans. All had to do was not prevent it.


    I think of "planned" in this sense the same way he or Muad'dib "planned" out a future. It's not like they sit down and instruct everyone what to do; rather they just take whatever minimal steps are required to set the pieces in motion for that path to transpire. I do agree, though, that he probably didn't actually see his own death, but rather just used basic logic to know when it would happen due to pretty much inevitable circumstances leading up to it.
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    Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?

    Postby Freakzilla » 18 Aug 2016 08:56

    georgiedenbro wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:I still don't think he planned his own death. He certainly set the pieces in place to favor it. But he seemed to be under almost constant attack, especially from the Duncans. All had to do was not prevent it.


    I think of "planned" in this sense the same way he or Muad'dib "planned" out a future. It's not like they sit down and instruct everyone what to do; rather they just take whatever minimal steps are required to set the pieces in motion for that path to transpire. I do agree, though, that he probably didn't actually see his own death, but rather just used basic logic to know when it would happen due to pretty much inevitable circumstances leading up to it.


    Yes, especially when you consider that he had to die near water. Like when he considered throwing himself out of the Little Citadel tower and could sense the Golden Path winking in and out of existence just for thinking it, I'm sure that sense helped guide him to the right death.
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