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    Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

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    Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby Captain_Cackwurst » 14 May 2015 15:43

    I've been wondering about Leto's motivation to walk the golden path for quite a while, and it appears that i cannot catch the reasoning behind his doing. So, what do you think? Why does Leto care so much for the survival of humankind?

    Not to sound misanthropic, but it seems to me that the survival of a species is merely self purposal, which is why non of its members would ever have a rational interest in sacrificing itself solely for this. I get it when people sacrifice themselves for loved ones, but why care for whether people that don't even exist yet will ever exist or not?



    oh, and btw: hi all :greetings-waveyellow:
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 May 2015 16:19

    Maybe the extinction was just so horrible he didn't want anyone to go through that?
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby georgiedenbro » 14 May 2015 16:40

    Captain_Cackwurst wrote:I've been wondering about Leto's motivation to walk the golden path for quite a while, and it appears that i cannot catch the reasoning behind his doing. So, what do you think? Why does Leto care so much for the survival of humankind?


    Hi!

    I think it's best to always remember that becoming a Reverend Mother (even a male one) will tend to put a person in line with BG thinking. Something about one's genetic heritage along with not being a stand-alone person but rather a part of a whole that exists over time makes asking why preserve the rest of humanity like asking your arm why it works to preserve the rest of the body. But only a RM would see this connection as self-evident and essential to her essence.

    Another thing to consider besides general genetic lineage and being attuned to it is the Atreides noble breeding. Although Leto and Ghani were true Fremen they were still also Atreides. They may have been capable of more than Paul in terms of methods but I doubt they could help having noble desires any more than Paul could.
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby Freakzilla » 15 May 2015 05:39

    I can't really comprehend the question. I know I want the human race to survive and can't imagine not caring. My question would be if I would have the guts to make the choice Leto did or be more like Paul, continually hoping I could find a way out later down the line.
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 09 Jun 2015 01:34

    I think it makes a big difference that Leto can see the alternative to the Golden Path. It's not a theoretical intangible thing. He knows what it will be like.

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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby Captain_Cackwurst » 09 Jun 2015 15:29

    Freakzilla wrote:I know I want the human race to survive and can't imagine not caring.


    That's not a very specific reason. I would get it if Leto would have to, like, move a finger to save humanity or so, but considering how far he went for it, i think there needs to be more than a 'feeling' that he wanted humanity to survive.



    Hunchback Jack wrote:I think it makes a big difference that Leto can see the alternative to the Golden Path. It's not a theoretical intangible thing. He knows what it will be like.


    Good point. And this reminds me of something else: Many of the foreseeing people (forgot the correct term) draw a picture of future and past merging together, most of the time to show how shitty foreseeing actually is. But what if, say, one of us had the chance to change the past and prevent the shoa, or whatever catastrophy, by sacrificing himself, the way Leto changes the future by sacrificing himself. This, at least to me, makes it much more imagineable for a human being with decent social abilities to sacrifice himself. And not to forget that, as you said, he will not watch the horrific events of history the way we do, through museums and TV-documentaries, but look at them as (even more than) a direct bystander.

    What i am just wondering here is whether Leto sees future the way we look at the past (you know, like this random duck you saw five years ago and now surely can describe in perfect detail), or whether he can have / has a detailed picture of everything that will/may happen in his mind. Doesn't he choose to not see everything that happens in future? How can he see the horror of human extinction then?
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby Captain_Cackwurst » 09 Jun 2015 15:54

    georgiedenbro wrote:I think it's best to always remember that becoming a Reverend Mother (even a male one) will tend to put a person in line with BG thinking. Something about one's genetic heritage along with not being a stand-alone person but rather a part of a whole that exists over time makes asking why preserve the rest of humanity like asking your arm why it works to preserve the rest of the body. But only a RM would see this connection as self-evident and essential to her essence.


    Nice analogy there. Anyways, the human arm can be described as a collective of cells (and other stuff) that work together for a certain goal, for a certain reason. The reason for each cell to integrate in this collective is, simplified, mechanics. It has no choice, and is therefore not comparable with humans in a collective of humans. Paul had a choice, so why shouldn't Leto have one too? (oh wait, Paul didn't have memories, right? ok i take that back)

    On the other hand, i think it was pretty much stated by Leto himself in CoH that he was a collective himself, not just a human (unlike RM, didn't they actually have the upper hand over their memories and therefore are to be considered individuals?). But the question remains: Why would a collective of humans sacrifice its own humanity in order to save the human race? Why would a collective of humans even care for being human or not?

    AAAAH, im so confused :crying-green: :confusion-questionmarks:



    georgiedenbro wrote:Another thing to consider besides general genetic lineage and being attuned to it is the Atreides noble breeding. Although Leto and Ghani were true Fremen they were still also Atreides. They may have been capable of more than Paul in terms of methods but I doubt they could help having noble desires any more than Paul could.



    Ye, i still don't like this part of Herbert. What does it matter if they are nobles? Thousands of years of incest won't make people anymore knightly than others. More like the other way 'round (*cough*aerys).
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby georgiedenbro » 09 Jun 2015 19:48

    Captain_Cackwurst wrote:What i am just wondering here is whether Leto sees future the way we look at the past (you know, like this random duck you saw five years ago and now surely can describe in perfect detail), or whether he can have / has a detailed picture of everything that will/may happen in his mind. Doesn't he choose to not see everything that happens in future? How can he see the horror of human extinction then?


    In DM we learn that Paul can see the future paths down to the most miniscule detail, at least in events that would directly involve him. Leto had this same ability, only more powerful and with further range. He can choose to see whatever futures he wants, and in Leto's case we imagine he's seen all of them that matter. He already started with Paul's memories of the future and so had no choice about knowing those, but he did choose to see the most terrible futures on top of it that Paul didn't examine.

    Captain_Cackwurst wrote:
    georgiedenbro wrote:I think it's best to always remember that becoming a Reverend Mother (even a male one) will tend to put a person in line with BG thinking. Something about one's genetic heritage along with not being a stand-alone person but rather a part of a whole that exists over time makes asking why preserve the rest of humanity like asking your arm why it works to preserve the rest of the body. But only a RM would see this connection as self-evident and essential to her essence.


    Nice analogy there. Anyways, the human arm can be described as a collective of cells (and other stuff) that work together for a certain goal, for a certain reason. The reason for each cell to integrate in this collective is, simplified, mechanics. It has no choice, and is therefore not comparable with humans in a collective of humans. Paul had a choice, so why shouldn't Leto have one too? (oh wait, Paul didn't have memories, right? ok i take that back)

    On the other hand, i think it was pretty much stated by Leto himself in CoH that he was a collective himself, not just a human (unlike RM, didn't they actually have the upper hand over their memories and therefore are to be considered individuals?). But the question remains: Why would a collective of humans sacrifice its own humanity in order to save the human race? Why would a collective of humans even care for being human or not?


    Paul had the full male and female genetic memories open to him, although Dune didn't make as big a deal of it as was later made in CoD about the twins. The Atreides all had a choice about what to care about, but as I mentioned above, FH's thesis is that once you know certain truths about humans and the past it will tend to align you towards a similar path the BG are on.

    The difference between Leto/Ghani/Alia and the BG (and Paul) is that the former are abomination - they were awakened to their genetic memories prior to having formed a personality of their own. They therefore never did so, and became composites of their ancestors. The BG merely dipped in their memories when they chose to do so, and they appeared to do so carefully. The abominations had all of their memories open at all times, it would appear.

    The thing about having the memories is that they are just like your own memories - they are effectively you. It's FH's way of saying that we do have parts of all the generations of humans that came before us in our DNA and cells. We don't merely remember them, in a strict sense we partly are them. To become fully awake to this like the BG do means ceasing to see oneself as just 'one person', detached from those that came before. The fiction that each of us stands alone in the present, neither part of the future nor the past, is one of the illusions that dissolves upon gaining the kind of higher awareness Paul and Leto did.


    Captain_Cackwurst wrote:
    georgiedenbro wrote:Another thing to consider besides general genetic lineage and being attuned to it is the Atreides noble breeding. Although Leto and Ghani were true Fremen they were still also Atreides. They may have been capable of more than Paul in terms of methods but I doubt they could help having noble desires any more than Paul could.



    Ye, i still don't like this part of Herbert. What does it matter if they are nobles? Thousands of years of incest won't make people anymore knightly than others. More like the other way 'round (*cough*aerys).


    Unlike how we think of it now, nobility in the sense it's meant in Dune doesn't just mean having a title, land, or power. It involves literal breeding that creates certain kinds of human stock that are specialized in certain ways. It's hard for us to zero in on exactly which parts of Paul and Leto were there from breeding, and which from education and environment, but either way when we say they're nobles it means something tangible. The differences in environment show when we compare Paul and Feyd, but both were of prime genetic stock. I'm not sure if I could make a case that the Atreides noble disposition was completely bred in, but once the Atreides began having the memories of their parents then it definitely was.
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby Redstar » 10 Jun 2015 02:01

    Maybe he felt that since he could ensure humanity's survival he had a certain responsibility to do so.
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby Freakzilla » 10 Jun 2015 06:21

    The answer to your question is yes, Leto saw all possible futures in Children of Dune after Gurney and Namri saturated him with spice essence. He then proceeded to eliminate all paths except the one which lead to humanities survival, the Golden Path.

    "I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
    know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
    thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
    "It's that or humans will be extinguished."
    Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
    acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
    the choices."

    ~Children of Dune

    This is explained in more detail in God Emperor of Dune:

    "What makes you do what you do?"
    The question was well framed. He said: "My need to save the people."
    "What people?"
    "My definition is much broader than that of anyone else even of the Bene
    Gesserit, who think they have defined what it is to be human. I refer to the
    eternal thread of all humankind by whatever definition."
    "You're trying to tell me. . ." Her mouth became too dry for speaking. She tried
    to accumulate saliva. He saw the movements within her face mask. Her question
    was obvious, though, and he did not wait.
    "Without me there would have been by now no people anywhere, none whatsoever.
    And the path to that extinction was more hideous than your wildest imaginings."
    "Your supposed prescience," she sneered.
    "The Golden Path still stands open," he said.

    ~God Emperor of Dune

    This is the event which Leto shows Siona durring her test:

    He saw the milky distances enter her eyes. Without asking permission, she tapped
    his front segment, demanding that he prepare the warm hammock of his flesh. He
    obeyed. She fitted herself to the gentle curve. By peering sharply downward, he
    could see her. Siona's eyes remained opened, but they no longer saw this place.
    She jerked abruptly and began to tremble like a small creature dying. He knew
    this experience, but could not change the smallest part of it. No ancestral
    presences would remain in her consciousness, but she would carry with her
    forever afterward the clear sights and sounds and smells. The seeking machines
    would be there, the smell of blood and entrails, the cowering humans in their
    burrows aware only that they could not escape . . . while all the time the
    mechanical movement approached, nearer and nearer and nearer ...louder...louder!
    Everywhere she searched, it would be the same. No escape anywhere.

    ~God Emperor of Dune
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby Naib » 10 Jun 2015 08:21

    I'll be reading GEoD next and it's been a couple of years since I last did, but that last passage seems to imply that without The Golden Path, humanity would have been driven to extinction by thinking machines. Does that mean Leto saw some part of society breaking the restrictions of the Butlerian Jihad to create thinking machines once more. Tleilax perhaps? Ix?
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby georgiedenbro » 10 Jun 2015 09:42

    Naib wrote:I'll be reading GEoD next and it's been a couple of years since I last did, but that last passage seems to imply that without The Golden Path, humanity would have been driven to extinction by thinking machines. Does that mean Leto saw some part of society breaking the restrictions of the Butlerian Jihad to create thinking machines once more. Tleilax perhaps? Ix?


    The specific threat he saw was apparently automated hunter-seekers. But more broadly he saw that humanity was too huddled together and could be targeted by other threats eventually, so they had to expand vastly.
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby Freakzilla » 10 Jun 2015 12:37

    "At one time, your masters on Ix..."
    "They are no longer my masters, Lord."
    "Forgive me. I will refer to them hereafter as the lxians."
    She nodded gravely, prompting: "At one time. . ."
    "The lxians contemplated making a weapon-a type of hunter-seeker, self-propelled
    death with a machine mind. It was to be designed as a self improving thing which
    would seek out life and reduce that life to its inorganic matter."

    ~GEoD
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby Naib » 10 Jun 2015 12:52

    Well that settles that.
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby Freakzilla » 10 Jun 2015 13:34

    Naib wrote:Well that settles that.


    Leto doesn't specifically state that this is the the threat which his metamorphosis prevented but it does seem to coincide with the vision Siona had durring her test.
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby georgiedenbro » 10 Jun 2015 13:53

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Naib wrote:Well that settles that.


    Leto doesn't specifically state that this is the the threat which his metamorphosis prevented but it does seem to coincide with the vision Siona had durring her test.


    Yeah, we've talked a bit before about whether Leto choosing that future created certain conditions that would not have existed without his influence. His oppression, for instance, may have created the Ixian threat in the first place; the larger prescient trap. But like Freak said, Leto saw some kind of imminent threat that we assume would have occurred had he not chosen the Golden Path.
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby Naib » 10 Jun 2015 15:02

    This seems to reinforce the adage from Dune - the first step in avoiding a trap is knowing of its existence.

    Leto saw the trap and The Golden Path is his way of avoiding it.
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby Freakzilla » 11 Jun 2015 06:21

    In my opinion, Leto's GP was just a bigger, better prescient trap. However, he managed it better and knew the way out beforehand:

    Paul confronted his son then, aiming the eyeless sockets at Leto. "Do you
    really know the universe you have created here?"
    Leto heard the particular emphasis. The vision which both of them knew had
    been set into terrible motion here had required an act of creation at a certain
    point in time. For that moment, the entire sentient universe shared a linear
    view of time which possessed characteristics of orderly progression. They
    entered this time as they might step onto a moving vehicle, and they could only
    leave it the same way.

    ~CoD
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby Captain_Cackwurst » 11 Jun 2015 13:44

    georgiedenbro wrote:FH's thesis is that once you know certain truths about humans and the past it will tend to align you towards a similar path the BG are on.




    Thanks for your explanations.


    One question remains: Why are the BG on their path? (i am assuming right now that there 'goal' is close to Leto's goal, conserving the sisterhood and humanity, and maybe advance them)
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby Freakzilla » 11 Jun 2015 13:55

    Captain_Cackwurst wrote:
    georgiedenbro wrote:FH's thesis is that once you know certain truths about humans and the past it will tend to align you towards a similar path the BG are on.




    Thanks for your explanations.


    One question remains: Why are the BG on their path? (i am assuming right now that there 'goal' is close to Leto's goal, conserving the sisterhood and humanity, and maybe advance them)


    The BG goal is the maturation of mankind, at least it's described that way in the later books.
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    Re: Why is the survival of humankind so important for Leto?

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 28 Jun 2015 16:52

    Why does Leto care so much for the survival of humankind?


    He loves us.
    I bring nothing to the table.
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