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    Aru And Aryeh

    Postby loremaster » 18 May 2008 04:29

    Children of Dune, Leto returns to denounce Alia and announced "Behold Me Family, I am Aru, Lion of Atreides" Holds Ghanima up and shouts "This Aryeh, they Atreides Lioness".

    These are the only times i have seen these names used, And i have no idea of their origins.

    Ar- can be a prefix meaning "first" i believe, in certain languages. But i have no idea which. I think it also can mean "Out of" or "Away from" - eg ARrhythmia in the heart.

    I just wondered if anyone had thought more about these words.

    On that vein, anyone know the origins of the Words Secher and Nbiw. I had thought they might have arabic origins in line with the fremen, but it doesnt appear so.
    The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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    Postby orald » 18 May 2008 04:38

    I believe Secher and Nbiw are mutations of "zecher" and "nevio"(ne-vi-o), "rememberence(or memory) (of the) prophet" in Hebrew. I assume it refers to Paul being the prophet, their father and that they remember him etc.
    Don't recall the exact translation for it in the Hebrew edition, but the pronounciation would seem fitting.

    Isn't "Ar" something to do with royalty? Nobel or something? Aryan?
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

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    Postby SandChigger » 18 May 2008 05:26

    Um...well...I think they're actually Egyptian...which is of course another Semitic language related to both Hebrew and Arabic.

    According to a dictionary txt file I found online (and downloaded), secher means "plan, policy, situation". It doesn't contain nbiw per se, but it does include neboe "gold".

    I've always assumed the ancient language Leto and Ghanima used was some form of Ancient Egyptian.

    On the page for the constellation Leo, Wikipedia has "The Persians called it Ser or Shir; the Turks, Artan; the Syrians, Aryo; the Jewish, Arye; the Indians, "Sher"; and the Babylonians, Aru — all meaning a lion."

    This page http://www.specialtyinterests.net/im/he ... xicon.html also gives Hebrew aru "lion".

    (I wonder if the "Babylonian" e.g. isn't actually Aramaic...hmmm.)
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    Postby orald » 18 May 2008 06:30

    SandChigger wrote:Um...well...I think they're actually Egyptian...which is of course another Semitic language related to both Hebrew and Arabic.

    According to a dictionary txt file I found online (and downloaded), secher means "plan, policy, situation". It doesn't contain nbiw per se, but it does include neboe "gold".

    I've always assumed the ancient language Leto and Ghanima used was some form of Ancient Egyptian.

    Yea, you're right, they were supposedly speaking ancient Egyptian between them. So it means "golden plan", i.e the golden path?

    Funny though how it sounds so close to a bastardization(?) of Hebrew words(not in itself so surprising, as they are both somewhat related of course), but of totally different meanings.

    SC wrote:On the page for the constellation Leo, Wikipedia has "The Persians called it Ser or Shir; the Turks, Artan; the Syrians, Aryo; the Jewish, Arye; the Indians, "Sher"; and the Babylonians, Aru — all meaning a lion."

    Yea, Arye is "lion"(of course we have several other synonyms for it, depending on the animal's age it seems, like Lavi or Kfir(the later denoting a young male I think).
    Interestingly, while Arye denotes the general "lion", a lioness is Levi-a, after Lavi, unlike English. But then again, I seem to remember Lavi being used more in the bible than Arye, isn't that right?

    SC wrote:This page http://www.specialtyinterests.net/im/he ... xicon.html also gives Hebrew aru "lion".

    I looked there, it shows אריה and says Aru, WTF? There's not even a reason to mispronounce it with "u", unless they're so blind as to mistake י for ו, after clearly writing the former(and in print, this isn't some wobblly hand writing to be confused). It's only Arye.
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    Postby SandChigger » 18 May 2008 09:14

    I'd have to dig out the lexicon with frequency lists to see which lion word is used more. ;)

    That site I linked to is a bit odd; it was like they're using image files for the Hebrew words? I didn't wait for it to load completely, just searched for "aru" and moved on, so I didn't notice the weird spelling.

    I seem to remember suggesting somewhere that we use Secher Nbiw instead of "Golden Path" when discussing it because the symbolism of the English makes it too easy for people to think it might be possible to "wander off" it. Like in the sequels.

    (Of course, the Revealed Word now is that invalidating Leto II and his sacrifice and efforts was just another example of Frank "killing his darlings". A brilliant new interpretation. Kevin must be very proud of himself. :roll: )
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    Postby loremaster » 18 May 2008 12:25

    Heh, fascinating stuff.

    I did assume, i have to admit, that Secher Nbiw was just a quid-pro-quo translation from one language or another.

    I'd simply LOVE oralds interpretation to be true tho. Sadly, i dont think thats what he had in mind.

    So Aru is just a wording of Lion? Seems a bit cliche to me. What would be the significance of a lion? besides being a powerful creature in its own right. I'd have thought maybe a Hawk would have been more fitting.

    And i`ve said all along, the golden path should be the golden cone. It spread out through the universe from that narrowing of time (Leto's rule) to become so vast that no-one could hope to spread the net wide enough to converge it again.

    Thanks Guys. Language is not my forte :(
    The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 18 May 2008 13:59

    And i`ve said all along, the golden path should be the golden cone. It spread out through the universe from that narrowing of time (Leto's rule) to become so vast that no-one could hope to spread the net wide enough to converge it again.

    Never ever eat a golden snow cone.
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    Postby orald » 18 May 2008 14:23

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    And i`ve said all along, the golden path should be the golden cone. It spread out through the universe from that narrowing of time (Leto's rule) to become so vast that no-one could hope to spread the net wide enough to converge it again.

    Never ever eat a golden snow cone.

    Damn you, you stole my joke! Well, mine was less funny but would've been based on icecream cones too. :P

    loremaster wrote:So Aru is just a wording of Lion? Seems a bit cliche to me. What would be the significance of a lion? besides being a powerful creature in its own right. I'd have thought maybe a Hawk would have been more fitting.

    Well, a lion and lioness, kings of the animal world, symbol of kingship etc.
    Unless there's some secret ancient Egyptian significance that Harum shoved through Leto as his private little joke.
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby Purge » 23 Jul 2008 13:14

    loremaster wrote:Heh, fascinating stuff.

    I did assume, i have to admit, that Secher Nbiw was just a quid-pro-quo translation from one language or another.

    I'd simply LOVE oralds interpretation to be true tho. Sadly, i dont think thats what he had in mind.

    So Aru is just a wording of Lion? Seems a bit cliche to me. What would be the significance of a lion? besides being a powerful creature in its own right. I'd have thought maybe a Hawk would have been more fitting.

    And i`ve said all along, the golden path should be the golden cone. It spread out through the universe from that narrowing of time (Leto's rule) to become so vast that no-one could hope to spread the net wide enough to converge it again.

    Thanks Guys. Language is not my forte :(


    It is definitely not straight across transliteration from Hebrew or Aramaic, though it could be a transliteration of Arabic (which I am not as familiar with). What orald said was probably the closest you could out of those words get to something of meaning/relevence to Dune in Hebrew.

    As far as I know all the Hebrew words for a lion are masculine, so either ari or aryeh certainly would have been appropriate for Leto to use for himself (though not necessarily inappropriate to use for Ghanima). Aru isn't a Hebrew or Aramaic word for lion, so like someone else mentioned, perhaps Akkadian.

    As for secher nbiw, it wouldn't come close to meaning anything like golden path in Hebrew no matter what consonants you tried to reconstruct it with.
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    Postby orald » 23 Jul 2008 14:14

    Purge wrote:As far as I know all the Hebrew words for a lion are masculine, so either ari or aryeh certainly would have been appropriate for Leto to use for himself (though not necessarily inappropriate to use for Ghanima).

    No duh...cuz a lion is, um, male? :P There's a word for lioness of course- levi'ah(female form of lavi[and the first letter changes pronounciation cuz of rules about words that get extended etc...boring shit I'm sure Chig digs]).
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby Purge » 23 Jul 2008 14:48

    I meant the animal in general rather than for a particular gender, but you're right, I forgot about l'vi'ah.
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    Postby orald » 23 Jul 2008 14:58

    BTW, Purge, where's your knowledge of Hebrew from? You're not a native speaker, are you?
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby Purge » 23 Jul 2008 15:23

    No, not native. I'm an American Jew. I am hoping to make aliya eventually though and have a few native speakers. :D
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    Postby Freakzilla » 23 Jul 2008 15:29

    Uh oh, you have competition now orald. :P
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    Postby orald » 23 Jul 2008 15:55

    Purge wrote:No, not native. I'm an American Jew. I am hoping to make aliya eventually though and have a few native speakers. :D

    I'll do you a favor and spare you the trouble- don't. It sucks here. :(


    Oh, and how goes the World Domination plan on your side of the ocean? :twisted:
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby Purge » 23 Jul 2008 15:58

    I would rather be in a sucky Israel than a great anywhere else.

    Gotta love America. Bush and Condi are A-OK with terrorists so long as it is THEIR terrorists (NK, Saudis, PA/Abbas).
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    Postby Freakzilla » 23 Jul 2008 16:31

    Purge wrote:I would rather be in a sucky Israel than a great anywhere else.

    Gotta love America. Bush and Condi are A-OK with terrorists so long as it is THEIR terrorists (NK, Saudis, PA/Abbas).


    Just wait until their oil runs out...or we find our own. We need that oil to fight the "bad" terrorists. We can't fight them all at once!

    :wink:
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    Postby orald » 24 Jul 2008 05:02

    Freakzilla wrote:We need that oil to fight the "bad" terrorists. We can't fight them all at once!

    :wink:

    Now that's the spirit! :twisted:
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    Postby moreh_yeladim » 28 Oct 2008 15:34

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Purge wrote:I would rather be in a sucky Israel than a great anywhere else.

    Gotta love America. Bush and Condi are A-OK with terrorists so long as it is THEIR terrorists (NK, Saudis, PA/Abbas).


    Just wait until their oil runs out...or we find our own. We need that oil to fight the "bad" terrorists. We can't fight them all at once!

    :wink:

    I've always pictured Bush as sitting around the Oval Office repeating the words "the spice must flow".
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