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    Pearls of Awareness

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 19 May 2008 23:03

    Does anyone have thoughts as to what (if anything) Leto intended the "pearls of awareness" in the sandworms to accomplish, and whether this was to be a part of the Golden Path or merely a by-product? Did he plan for some one like Sheana to show influence over the worms? If so to what purpose? I was left with the impression that something very big had been left unsaid by FH, and that Leto's imprisoned consciousness was going to play a part in the conflict with the Enemy of Many Faces.
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    Postby Omphalos » 19 May 2008 23:14

    There was a bit of his personality and intelligence in each worm, which was a changed form of Shai-Hulud, so that when Sheanna came along in the next book, there would be something in the worm that would interact with her and be susceptible to control.
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 19 May 2008 23:18

    Omphalos wrote:There was a bit of his personality and intelligence in each worm, which was a changed form of Shai-Hulud, so that when Sheanna came along in the next book, there would be something in the worm that would interact with her and be susceptible to control.


    Oh, I didn't miss any of that. What was the point of it is what I wonder, and did it have anything to do with his plans to finish the series.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby HoosierDaddy » 19 May 2008 23:29

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:Does anyone have thoughts as to what (if anything) Leto intended the "pearls of awareness" in the sandworms to accomplish, and whether this was to be a part of the Golden Path or merely a by-product? Did he plan for some one like Sheana to show influence over the worms? If so to what purpose? I was left with the impression that something very big had been left unsaid by FH, and that Leto's imprisoned consciousness was going to play a part in the conflict with the Enemy of Many Faces.


    Yes, yes, and yes IMO.

    This gets into the Leto II's "4 death's" from GEOD. Essential discussion related to the golden path, and what FH might have really planned after ChD.

    And why OH's despise what P&B have done to the Duniverse.


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    Postby SandChigger » 20 May 2008 04:36

    Hmmm.

    Can we really be sure that the "pearls" were something Leto intended, not simply a natural result of his hybridization with the worm that he saw a way to make use of? I tend toward the latter view. (Mainly because I can't see a way for him to have effected it.)

    That the worms would become more cunning (and dangerous to spice hunters) is something he predicted, but can you really say that the worms had part of his personality? "Awareness" certainly doesn't mean there's any "conscious thought" involved, right? At best Leto was lost in an endless dream....
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    Postby orald » 20 May 2008 05:44

    I also believe the "pearls" were an unavoidable result from his symbiosys, whether he liked it or not(well, he sure found a use for it).
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    Postby Omphalos » 20 May 2008 10:57

    SandChigger wrote:Hmmm.

    Can we really be sure that the "pearls" were something Leto intended, not simply a natural result of his hybridization with the worm that he saw a way to make use of? I tend toward the latter view. (Mainly because I can't see a way for him to have effected it.)


    I have wondered that myself, but even if it was an unavoidable consequence of synthesis, I think its most likely that Leto foresaw it and worked it into his plan.
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 20 May 2008 11:28

    I'm with Omph on this, I agree that there was nothing he could have done about it, having to control over it, but he was a resourceful fellow. Might he not have anticipated in somone like Sheana coming along and come up with a plan of some sort? I don't know what, but it felt to me like FH had something left to say on the matter.
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    Postby Mandy » 20 May 2008 12:08

    Didn't Sheana have the Siona gene?

    I also think the pearls of awareness were a byproduct that Leto had no control over, but that they were also part of the GP. I like to think the awareness made it possible for the BG to begin the spice cycle on other planets.
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    Postby SandChigger » 20 May 2008 12:08

    The "'trouts wit da poils" (and/or the spice they would later produce) were essential in some way for the proper establishment of the Golden Path, otherwise Leto's death away from water would not have endangered it after a certain point in his preparations.

    The BG believed that the "Dreamin' Demon" held them to his vision, thus the destruction of Rakis, etc etc. After the Scattering was underway, though, I don't really see the relevance for all of humanity. (Especially since Leto says he didn't peek, meaning he hadn't micromanaged to the end of time.)

    He may have anticipated someone like Sheeana, but he definitely did not see her.

    Pesky Siona Gene and all. ;)


    Edit: Slippery little thang, arncha? I should have previewed before posting. :)
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    Postby Tyrant » 20 May 2008 12:55

    SandChigger wrote:The BG believed that the "Dreamin' Demon" held them to his vision, thus the destruction of Rakis, etc etc. After the Scattering was underway, though, I don't really see the relevance for all of humanity. (Especially since Leto says he didn't peek, meaning he hadn't micromanaged to the end of time.)


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    Postby Mandy » 20 May 2008 13:27

    Like a snake :P
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    Postby Spice Grandson » 20 May 2008 15:49

    Leto II seemed to always allude to the fact that he never "looked" into the future to try and change it, only to see if his Golden Path continued. Which causes a bit of consternation for me. What, exactly, could he have known of the future if he simply 'peek-a-booed' to see if the Path continued? His "pearls" were in the worms, but could he have specifically known what that would mean to the descendants of Siona, especially since they're invisible to prescients? Or does it really matter?

    I guess my point is did Leto II see someone the likes of Sheeana who would someday be able to manipulate the worms, as it were? Or was this inconsequential?
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 20 May 2008 16:01

    Spice Grandson wrote:Leto II seemed to always allude to the fact that he never "looked" into the future to try and change it, only to see if his Golden Path continued. Which causes a bit of consternation for me. What, exactly, could he have known of the future if he simply 'peek-a-booed' to see if the Path continued? His "pearls" were in the worms, but could he have specifically known what that would mean to the descendants of Siona, especially since they're invisible to prescients? Or does it really matter?

    I guess my point is did Leto II see someone the likes of Sheeana who would someday be able to manipulate the worms, as it were? Or was this inconsequential?


    From an analytical stand point it does apear to be inconsequential. I certainly don't think that it was vital to the Golden Path. However - it seems out of charactor for FH to include something so drastic simply to amuse the reader. He was never a supplier of geek porn. I'm one of the least knowledgable people in this forum and am just curious as to whether anyone here with a bit more Dunexperience also felt that the new sandworms might prove important in some way to the survival of the old empire.
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    Postby Mandy » 20 May 2008 18:36

    I think they proved important to the survival of humankind.. not necessarily the empire. Getting the worms off Arrakis and having the spice cycle begin on multiple worlds would keep another monopoly from forming.

    I think Leto"s pearls of awareness played a part in deciding when the time was right.. so they came to Sheeana.
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 20 May 2008 18:41

    I thought of that, but worms were taken off-world in CoD, and the attempts to duplicate Dune would have succeed if they had been put into a water bearing area instead of a desert one. So, while Sheeana's ability to herd them onto the no-ship helped out, it could have been done without her. Maybe not quickly enough in thhat particular instance though.
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    Postby Mandy » 20 May 2008 18:49

    Exactly.. it was like the worms knew they had to come, or be wiped out completely.
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    Postby SandChigger » 20 May 2008 21:08

    Spice Grandson wrote:Leto II seemed to always allude to the fact that he never "looked" into the future to try and change it, only to see if his Golden Path continued.

    Sorry, but that's a bit imprecise, isn't it? What he said most clearly was that he only peeked (had a "few glimpses") beyond a certain period to see if the Path endured. That period being the four millennia up until the discovery of Dar-es-Balat.

    Again, he didn't want to micromanage, so what does it matter what he knew of the future? All that mattered was that the human race survived...and he just had to detect evidence of continuing activity by people he couldn't see to know it did.

    Again, the continued existence of the worms or the spice was essential in some way for the establishment of the Golden Path or its initial stages thereafter. I don't see how they are relevant to the whole once it was underway, however. Especially if one of Leto's goals was to wean the race off the spice.

    And certainly they are irrelevant and of little consequence in the story as presented in the sequels. :roll:
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    Postby HoosierDaddy » 20 May 2008 21:42

    From GEOD (Leto and Hwi)

    "Think on the price I pay," he said. "Every descendant part of me will carry some of my awareness locked away within it, lost and helpless."
    She put both hands over her mouth and stared at him. "This is the horror which my father could not face and which he tried to prevent: the infinite division and subdivision of a blind identity."

    She lowered her hands and whispered: "You will be conscious?"

    "In a way . . . but mute. A little pearl of my awareness will go with every sandworm and every sandtrout-knowing yet unable to move a single cell, aware in an endless dream."

    She shuddered.

    Leto watched her try to understand such an existence. Could she imagine the final clamor when the subdivided bits of his identity grappled for a fading control of the Ixian machine which recorded his journals? Could she sense the wrenching silence which would follow that awful fragmentation?

    "Lord, they would use this knowledge against you were I to reveal it."
    "Will you tell?"

    "Of course not!" She shook her head slowly from side to side. Why had he accepted this terrible transformation? Was there no escape?
    Presently, she said: "The machine which writes your thoughts, could it not be attuned to. . ."
    "To a million of me? To a billion? To more? My dear Hwi, none of those knowing pearls will be truly me."


    A later discussion in GEOD...

    "You know how you will die?" "Not how. I know only the Golden Path in which it will occur."

    "Lord, I do not. . ."

    "It is difficult to understand, I know. I will die four deaths. The death of the flesh, the death of the soul, the death of the myth and the death of reason. And all of these deaths contain the seed of resurrection."

    "You will return from..."

    "The seeds will return."

    "When you are gone, what will happen to your religion?"

    "All religions are a single communion. The spectrum remains unbroken within the Golden Path. It is only that humans see first one part and then another. Delusions can be called accidents of the senses."

    "People will still worship you," she said.

    "Yes."

    "But when forever ends, there will be anger," she said. "There will be denial. Some will say you were just an ordinary tyrant."

    "Delusion," he agreed.
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    Postby HoosierDaddy » 20 May 2008 21:47

    From HOD, when Odrade discovers the spice cache at Seitch Tabor

    Again, she sent the light beam along the mounded melange. Her attention was drawn to the strip of wall above the spice. More words! Still in Chakobsa, written with a cutter in a fine flowing script, there was another message:

    "A REVEREND MOTHER WILL READ MY WORDS!"

    Something cold settled in Odrade's guts. She moved to her right with the light, plowing through an empire's ransom in melange. There was more to the message:

    "I BEQUEATH TO YOU MY FEAR AND LONELINESS. TO YOU I GIVE THE CERTAINTY THAT THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE BENE GESSERIT WILL MEET THE SAME FATE AS ALL OTHER BODIES AND ALL OTHER SOULS."

    Another paragraph of the message beckoned to the right of this one. She plowed through the cloying melange and stopped to read.

    "WHAT IS SURVIVAL IF YOU DO NOT SURVIVE WHOLE? ASK THE BENE TLEILAX THAT! WHAT IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE? MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!"

    There was more of it on the narrow end wall of the long chamber. Odrade stumbled through the melange and knelt to read:

    "WHY DID YOUR SISTERHOOD NOT BUILD THE GOLDEN PATH? YOU KNEW THE NECESSITY. YOUR FAILURE CONDEMNED ME, THE GOD EMPEROR, TO MILLENNIA OF PERSONAL DESPAIR."

    The words "God Emperor" were not in Chakobsa but in the language of the Islamiyat, where they conveyed an explicit second meaning to any speaker of that tongue: "Your God and Your Emperor because you made me so."

    Odrade smiled grimly. That would drive Waff into a religious frenzy! The higher he went, the easier to shatter his security. She did not doubt the accuracy of the Tyrant's accusation, nor the potential in
    his prediction that the Sisterhood could end. The sense of danger had led her to this place unerringly. Something more had been at work, too. The worms of Rakis still moved to the Tyrant's ancient beat. He might slumber in his endless dream but monstrous life, a pearl in each worm to remind it, carried on as the Tyrant had predicted.

    What was it he had told the Sisterhood in his own time? She recalled his words: "When I am gone, they must call me Shaitan, Emperor of Gehenna. The wheel must turn and turn along the Golden Path."


    Yes -- that was what Taraza had meant. "But don't you see? The common people of Rakis have been calling him Shaitan for more than a thousand years." So Taraza had known this thing. Without ever seeing these words, she had known. I see your design, Taraza. And now I know the burden of fear you have carried all these years. I can feel it every bit as deeply as you do.

    Odrade knew then that this warning sense would not leave until she ended, or the Sisterhood vanished from existence, or the peril was resolved. Odrade lifted her light, got to her feet and slogged through the melange to the wide steps out of this place. At the steps, she recoiled. More of the Tyrant's words had been cut into each riser. Trembling, she read them as they moved upward to the opening.

    "MY WORDS ARE YOUR PAST,
    "MY QUESTIONS ARE SIMPLE:
    "WITH WHOM DO YOU ALLY?
    "WITH THE SELF-IDOLATORS OF TLEILAX?
    "WITH MY FISH SPEAKER BUREAUCRACY?
    "WITH THE COSMOS-WANDERING GUILD?
    "WITH HARKONNEN BLOOD SACRIFICERS?
    "WITH A DOGMATIC SINK OF YOUR OWN CREATION?
    "HOW WILL YOU MEET YOUR END?
    "AS NO MORE THAN A SECRET SOCIETY?"

    Odrade climbed past the questions, reading them a second time as she went. Noble purpose? What a fragile thing that always was. And how easily distorted. But the power was there immersed in constant peril. It was all spelled out on the walls and stairs of that chamber. Taraza knew without having it explained. The Tyrant's meaning was clear:

    "Join me!"
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    Postby Freakzilla » 20 May 2008 21:51

    I think FH may have intened something for the pearls in the latter books.

    In HoD after Odrade meets Sheeana, she sends a message that the sandrider the Tyrant predicted has come.

    I've always considered this an inconsistancy by omission. It's not like FH to retcon something like that. I'd like to think that maybe he meant to mention the prophesy in GEoD and it got edited out or forgotten.


    However, he does mention that people are trying o communicate with the pearls in the Minority Report at the end of GEoD.
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    Postby Spicelon » 20 May 2008 22:10

    Hoosier Daddy's last post is without a doubt my favorite 2 pages in all the six books. God I love this shit!

    EDIT: Poo. God I love this poo. ;)
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    Postby HoosierDaddy » 20 May 2008 22:33

    Freakzilla wrote:However, he does mention that people are trying o communicate with the pearls in the Minority Report at the end of GEoD.


    And in HOD, how are they trying to communicate with the "pearls"?

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    Postby SandChigger » 20 May 2008 23:27

    Freakzilla wrote:I think FH may have intened something for the pearls in the latter books.

    He obviously didn't include it in the outline for "Dune 7".
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    Postby Omphalos » 20 May 2008 23:36

    SandChigger wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:I think FH may have intened something for the pearls in the latter books.

    He obviously didn't include it in the outline for "Dune 7".


    $10 says that perverson has Leto leaving Sabiha a "pearl necklace of awareness" when they get to the CoD interquel.
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