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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Oct 2010 09:29

    Leto's metamorphasis and subsequent rule prevented human extinction. That makes him a savior if you believe his prescience and take his word for that.

    The Golden Path was not to prevent any specific event but to prevent a person such as himself from doing what he did ever again and once set in motion didn't require any help. He would not have died otherwise.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby redbugpest » 14 Oct 2010 09:42

    Freakzilla wrote: The Golden Path was not to prevent any specific event but to prevent a person such as himself from doing what he did ever again and once set in motion didn't require any help. He would not have died otherwise.


    That begs the question of why he did not seek out and destroy anyone who shared the Atreides bloodline, since the genetic makeup for the Kwisatz Haderach remained with them, and was a continuing concern for the Bene Gesserit?
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Oct 2010 10:23

    redbugpest wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote: The Golden Path was not to prevent any specific event but to prevent a person such as himself from doing what he did ever again and once set in motion didn't require any help. He would not have died otherwise.


    That begs the question of why he did not seek out and destroy anyone who shared the Atreides bloodline, since the genetic makeup for the Kwisatz Haderach remained with them, and was a continuing concern for the Bene Gesserit?


    To the contrary, he proliferated the Atreides bloodline. It is my own personal theory that the latent KH gene is what provides invisibility from prescience. This also had the added effect of bringing OM to a near consious instinct level.

    Even if there was a basis for the BG fears, another KH would still only be a local threat after The Scattering.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby redbugpest » 14 Oct 2010 10:39

    Freakzilla wrote:
    redbugpest wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote: The Golden Path was not to prevent any specific event but to prevent a person such as himself from doing what he did ever again and once set in motion didn't require any help. He would not have died otherwise.


    That begs the question of why he did not seek out and destroy anyone who shared the Atreides bloodline, since the genetic makeup for the Kwisatz Haderach remained with them, and was a continuing concern for the Bene Gesserit?


    To the contrary, he proliferated the Atreides bloodline. It is my own personal theory that the latent KH gene is what provides invisibility from prescience. This also had the added effect of bringing OM to a near consious instinct level.

    Even if there was a basis for the BG fears, another KH would still only be a local threat after The Scattering.


    Well, I have to admit that I like your theory on proliferating the bloodline as a method of limiting the usefulness of prescience. Was there any particular references that drew you towards that conclusion?
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Oct 2010 10:52

    redbugpest wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    redbugpest wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote: The Golden Path was not to prevent any specific event but to prevent a person such as himself from doing what he did ever again and once set in motion didn't require any help. He would not have died otherwise.


    That begs the question of why he did not seek out and destroy anyone who shared the Atreides bloodline, since the genetic makeup for the Kwisatz Haderach remained with them, and was a continuing concern for the Bene Gesserit?


    To the contrary, he proliferated the Atreides bloodline. It is my own personal theory that the latent KH gene is what provides invisibility from prescience. This also had the added effect of bringing OM to a near consious instinct level.

    Even if there was a basis for the BG fears, another KH would still only be a local threat after The Scattering.


    Well, I have to admit that I like your theory on proliferating the bloodline as a method of limiting the usefulness of prescience. Was there any particular references that drew you towards that conclusion?


    Siona is Atreides.

    Prescients are invisible to other prescients.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby redbugpest » 14 Oct 2010 11:00

    Ok, but why would Idaho be invisible to prescience and prophets? It cannot be that he is a ghola, because then all of the face dancers and masters would be invisible as well.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Oct 2010 11:54

    redbugpest wrote:Ok, but why would Idaho be invisible to prescience and prophets? It cannot be that he is a ghola, because then all of the face dancers and masters would be invisible as well.


    He was kept in the no-ship on Chapterhouse to hide him from prescients. Allthough he had the Siona gene genetically introduced by the BT, the BG still had their doubts. His original cells did not have the Siona Gene.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby lotek » 14 Oct 2010 12:11

    Freak mentionned this was not a certainty but since the BG don't like to take chances if possible they wouldn't let him off the no ship(even though Chapterhouse was surrounded by a moat of no ships)
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby Tycho » 14 Oct 2010 12:17

    I'm not sure about this invisible to prescience business. I suspect it might be more along the lines that some people are capable of the truly unexpected (eg. Siona, an independent rebel, assassinating the God Emperor). Everyone is invisible to prescience... it can't be that prescients can virtually zoom about the universe and monitor individual people. Rather, most people do the predictable thing, according to their socio-economic status, therefore the oracle is able to see predictable futures.

    There might be parts of the books I've forgotten that contradict that though.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Oct 2010 12:17

    A mystery wraped inside an enigma, smothered in secret sauce.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Oct 2010 12:19

    Tycho wrote:I'm not sure about this invisible to prescience business. I suspect it might be more along the lines that some people are capable of the truly unexpected (eg. Siona, an independent rebel, assassinating the God Emperor). Everyone is invisible to prescience... it can't be that prescients can virtually zoom about the universe and monitor individual people. Rather, most people do the predictable thing, according to their socio-economic status, therefore the oracle is able to see predictable futures.

    There might be parts of the books I've forgotten that contradict that though.


    The BT/HM used Guild Navigators to search for Duncan in the Gamu wilderness.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby Tycho » 14 Oct 2010 13:18

    Hmm, mightn't that just be because they new what relatively small (empty) area he was located in and could pick up disturbances to the natural habitat (which is all Guild Navigators really do when they fold space - just look at the state of the environment and make predictions - or in this case see where someone has disturbed the natural inevitability). Clutching at straws I suppose. It's just if a KH can really just zoom in on anyone and watch/forsee their actions, that seems a bit TOO powerful and also causes many logical problems - like even if they can't see Siona-gened people, they can see their cohorts etc.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Oct 2010 13:22

    Tycho wrote:Hmm, mightn't that just be because they new what relatively small (empty) area he was located in and could pick up disturbances to the natural habitat (which is all Guild Navigators really do when they fold space - just look at the state of the environment and make predictions - or in this case see where someone has disturbed the natural inevitability). Clutching at straws I suppose. It's just if a KH can really just zoom in on anyone and watch/forsee their actions, that seems a bit TOO powerful and also causes many logical problems - like even if they can't see Siona-gened people, they can see their cohorts etc.


    Which is why it would be smart to hang out with other people who have the Siona Gene... like on Chapterhouse Planet. :wink:

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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby SandChigger » 14 Oct 2010 14:35

    redbugpest wrote:Ok, but why would Idaho be invisible to prescience and prophets? It cannot be that he is a ghola, because then all of the face dancers and masters would be invisible as well.

    Wow... what a striking display of colossal ignorance about the books. :think:

    Tycho wrote:I'm not sure about this invisible to prescience business. I suspect it might be more along the lines that some people are capable of the truly unexpected (eg. Siona, an independent rebel, assassinating the God Emperor).

    Got any support for that? The Siona Gene as bequeathing capriciousness?

    Everyone is invisible to prescience... it can't be that prescients can virtually zoom about the universe and monitor individual people. Rather, most people do the predictable thing, according to their socio-economic status, therefore the oracle is able to see predictable futures.

    There might be parts of the books I've forgotten that contradict that though.

    Everyone is invisible to prescience? Forget contradicting the books, show me something supporting it.

    Tycho wrote:Hmm, mightn't that just be because they new what relatively small (empty) area he was located in and could pick up disturbances to the natural habitat (which is all Guild Navigators really do when they fold space - just look at the state of the environment and make predictions - or in this case see where someone has disturbed the natural inevitability).

    As I've pointed out to Freak before, reducing prescience to Mentat-level projections from current conditions (even with the encyclopedic knowledge of past human actions & reactions available to the KH via OM) really doesn't work as an explanation of the things Duniverse prescients are capable of, Paul's actions immediately after his blinding being a perfect example. (And Guild Navigators don't fold space, Holtzman engines do. ;) But the same objection holds: how can a Navigator preparing to travel from Caladan to Arrakis "just look at the state of the environment" around the destination from over 300 lightyears away? Even if a Navigator could have perfect knowledge of every natural object orbiting through the Canopus system, how can he predict when and where other Guildships will be appearing there? Ultra-exact Guild timetables? Pshaw! :) )

    It's just if a KH can really just zoom in on anyone and watch/forsee their actions, that seems a bit TOO powerful and also causes many logical problems - like even if they can't see Siona-gened people, they can see their cohorts etc.

    Right, KHs being "TOO powerful" was one of the reasons Leto wanted to protect humanity from any future ones. And where are these logical problems? Leto saw Siona's footprints in the sand beside him in the future even if he couldn't see her herself. When he peeked into the far future to see if the Golden Path endured, he wouldn't have been able to see individual people after the Siona Gene became widespread. But he could see evidence of human activity and deduce their existence.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby SandRider » 14 Oct 2010 16:41

    I suspect it might be more along the lines that some people are capable of the truly unexpected (eg. Siona, an independent rebel, assassinating the God Emperor).



    Leto, by proxy and motivations she herself did not understand, trained Siona for her ultimate role;
    she in no way was "independent" ... she moved along the path Leto laid out for her ... she believed
    she had free-will, and Leto gave her several options ... had she moved away from his plan to use
    her as the agent of his "return to the sand", he would have selected another who would have been
    exactly the same to him
    ; Siona was a valuable, but ultimately replaceable, piece in Leto's game ....

    had Leto determined she would be better suited (to the Golden Path) serving as a Loyal FishSpeaker,
    or given to the Bene Gesserit, or held back for the breeding program, he would have done this; it was
    the combination of her development and this particular Duncan Idaho that caused him to go forward
    with the final phase of his plan ...

    (this is Frank's commentary on the Presbyterian God of Predestination and the Doctrine of Free Will ...
    God's Will is Predetermined, yet human beings (as opposed to The Angels) have free-will; this indivual
    free-will cannot alter the path of God's Will, however ... a human being is given a narrow range of options;
    they may choose to serve God's Will or oppose it, but neither choice can change the ultimate outcome ...
    this then is where the Doctrine of Personal Salvation enters the argument ...)
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby D Pope » 14 Oct 2010 16:55

    :text-goodpost:
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby SandRider » 14 Oct 2010 17:18

    I'm not so sure .... it was kinda spontaneous ...one of those ideas I've have in my head years now,
    and never tried to articulate ... I'll wait for Freak's opinion as to the Dune-canon aspect of it,
    and Chigger's as to the asshat-philosophy angle ....



    sounds good, tho, huh?
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Oct 2010 17:35

    redbugpest wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote: The Golden Path was not to prevent any specific event but to prevent a person such as himself from doing what he did ever again and once set in motion didn't require any help. He would not have died otherwise.


    That begs the question of why he did not seek out and destroy anyone who shared the Atreides bloodline, since the genetic makeup for the Kwisatz Haderach remained with them, and was a continuing concern for the Bene Gesserit?


    A KH would have little or no power in a universe where almost everyone had the Siona gene. This is part of how the GP works.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Oct 2010 17:50

    SandRider wrote: ... I'll wait for Freak's opinion as to the Dune-canon aspect of it...


    I agree with you about Siona.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby D Pope » 14 Oct 2010 18:02

    :twocents-02cents:

    I've never liked the idea that Leto used her as his agent for returning to the sand, like he chose her for the job.
    I do like that explanation of free will.
    If these are Franks words, who can object?
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby SandRider » 14 Oct 2010 18:08

    what I'm saying is that she had limited free-will ... Leto gave her enough choice for her own life ...
    if she'd've gone a different route, that would have served his purpose as well; he could well afford to
    wait a few more generations for another (possibly better) candidate, and again, I think the key to the
    timing is not actually Siona, but the Duncan ...and the combination of the two ...

    of course, in fictional terms, of course Siona and the Duncan acted the way they did, or else
    Frank wouldn't have told us this part of the story ... like the other three thousand odd years
    he skips over to get us to the important part ... how many times then did Leto think he might
    be close to the end ? (and shut up, Keith, I don't want to hear your opinion...)
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Oct 2010 18:17

    SandRider wrote:what I'm saying is that she had limited free-will ... Leto gave her enough choice for her own life ...
    if she'd've gone a different route, that would have served his purpose as well; he could well afford to
    wait a few more generations for another (possibly better) candidate, and again, I think the key to the
    timing is not actually Siona, but the Duncan ...and the combination of the two ...


    It also had to be timed with the INM and no-tech.

    of course, in fictional terms, of course Siona and the Duncan acted the way they did, or else
    Frank wouldn't have told us this part of the story ... like the other three thousand odd years
    he skips over to get us to the important part ... how many times then did Leto think he might
    be close to the end ? (and shut up, Keith, I don't want to hear your opinion...)


    In CoD he predicted he would rule 4,000 years, I think Siona may have actually been early.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby Tycho » 14 Oct 2010 20:30

    I laid out my interpretation of the nature of prescience (and no-genes etc) in the 'Prescience' thread in General Dune Discussion, but I'll mention it again here.

    Paul or Leto II says at some point that 'universal prescience is a myth - there are no single set of limits for all men, only the most powerful currents of local time can be foretold' (or something like that). I take this to mean individuals can always act out of sync with a prophecy, but when MANY people take inter-related decisions (like the BG planning an assassination of Leto II or something like that), the oracle can sense this 'current' and predict where its going.

    Prescience is NOT just mentat projection with integrated OM wisdom behind it - the book specifically states oracles have minds capable of operating in a 'higher dimension.' This higher dimension IMO consists of the force of change in the universe. In other words, whenever somebody makes a decision, the oracle can sense it as a vibration/signal/whatever through the higher dimension. But individual decisions are lost in the noise... only strongly correlated patterns in the decision making of many can be sensed. This is the 'magic,' and then the mentat/OM part comes in to predict the future judging by these correlated signals.

    The Guild navigators can sense some sort of basic non-human causation along a linear path in space-time, allowing them to plot fold-space trips with exact destinations. If they know where to look they can search for clues as to the whereabouts of individuals, but they can't make predictions about human acts and they can't monitor / eavesdrop. Paul could 'see' without his eyes because he could sense all the causation in his immediate local space-time, but he surely couldn't just see anyone anywhere doing anything anytime. On a large scale he could only detect the 'currents of time,' the patterns of history created by social groups (which is the main point of the novels, as evidenced by most of the philosophical epitaphs, the choices of setting and the plots etc).

    If KHs could 'see' the universe including the future like some sort of ultimate spy camera, it wouldn't be 'TOO' powerful in the Golden Path sense, it would be 'TOO' powerful in the storytelling logic sense. For the KH to be able to see everywhere and monitor individual decisions makes them totally undefeatable. It's like Superman - a hilariously over powered superhero. It makes all the struggles of the books pointless. They may have crystal clear 'visions' of future scenes sometimes but that's just their mind interpreting something subconsciously and presenting it like a dream, NOT a literal vision of (future) reality. The BG quote at the end of Heretics indicates that oracles don't need to fully comprehend, consciously, how their sixth sense works, they just take it as is it comes.

    Miles Teg is the first descendant of Siona that we get introduced to, and his character is noted 'for doing the unexpected' (as a military commander, but it has broader significance). It's this independent THINKING (and decision making) that makes people 'invisible' to prescients, or rather makes oracular visions of the future unreliable because one of these sufficiently independent agents could willfully contradict. It's not a magic gene that has a Holtzman humbucker built into it or something... which would be just as lame as Superman powers.

    The Presbyterian predestination hoopla is just a logical fallout of believing in a 'omniscient' being. God has to KNOW everything, so therefore you can never SURPRISE him, but you DO have free will, just that God always KNOWS what you will decide. I don't think it's worth thinking about. Throughout the Dune novels the patterns of history, driven by the motivations and methods of regimes and cartels and guilds and religions and schools and classes and armies, are the central theme. And prescience and the Siona-gene integrates with that IMO (or it ought to anyway. i mean if it's just a magic gene what's the point. Leto II may as well have invented a low-cost 'long range universal prescience jamming device' and it would serve the story just as well as a magic gene). People always have free will they just don't realize the nature of all the forces affecting their lives, therefore their independence wanes
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby SandChigger » 14 Oct 2010 21:39

    Tycho wrote:Paul or Leto II says at some point that 'universal prescience is a myth - there are no single set of limits for all men, only the most powerful currents of local time can be foretold' (or something like that).

    I don't know what other sietches you lurk in but in this one "Paul or Leto II" and "something like that" don't cut shit.

    In Children of Dune (Ch 39), FH wrote: In an old voice, Leto said: "There's no single set of limits for all men. Universal prescience is an empty myth. Only the most powerful local currents of Time may be foretold. But in an infinite universe, local can be so gigantic that your mind shrinks from it."

    Paul and Leto differed greatly in the strength of their prescience. Are you certain this means what you think it means?

    Prescience is NOT just mentat projection with integrated OM wisdom behind it - the book specifically states oracles have minds capable of operating in a 'higher dimension.' This higher dimension IMO consists of the force of change in the universe.

    IYO. A higher dimension consisting of the force of change. Goodness. I've just learned that I've been put in charge of asshat-philosophy but I'm beginning to fear I'm way out of my depth! Oh dear.

    The Guild navigators can sense some sort of basic non-human causation along a linear path in space-time, allowing them to plot fold-space trips with exact destinations. If they know where to look they can search for clues as to the whereabouts of individuals, but they can't make predictions about human acts and they can't monitor / eavesdrop.

    So Navigators can avoid the out-of-orbit space rock in the destination system (non-human causation) but what about the rapid courier ship folding in with urgent dispatches from Kaitain or Arrakis (other Navigators are human and prescient)?

    If KHs could 'see' the universe including the future like some sort of ultimate spy camera, it wouldn't be 'TOO' powerful in the Golden Path sense, it would be 'TOO' powerful in the storytelling logic sense. For the KH to be able to see everywhere and monitor individual decisions makes them totally undefeatable. It's like Superman - a hilariously over powered superhero. It makes all the struggles of the books pointless.

    Ah, gotcha. "Morprk Syndrome": traipsing willy-nilly across the great meta-divide. :roll:

    They may have crystal clear 'visions' of future scenes sometimes but that's just their mind interpreting something subconsciously and presenting it like a dream, NOT a literal vision of (future) reality.

    Really? Is this also IYO?

    It's not a magic gene that has a Holtzman humbucker built into it or something... which would be just as lame as Superman powers.

    LOL. Charming. Who suggested something that simplistic? Asshat.

    The Presbyterian predestination hoopla is just a logical fallout of believing in a 'omniscient' being. God has to KNOW everything, so therefore you can never SURPRISE him, but you DO have free will, just that God always KNOWS what you will decide. I don't think it's worth thinking about. Throughout the Dune novels the patterns of history, driven by the motivations and methods of regimes and cartels and guilds and religions and schools and classes and armies, are the central theme. And prescience and the Siona-gene integrates with that IMO (or it ought to anyway. i mean if it's just a magic gene what's the point. Leto II may as well have invented a low-cost 'long range universal prescience jamming device' and it would serve the story just as well as a magic gene). People always have free will they just don't realize the nature of all the forces affecting their lives, therefore their independence wanes

    Well, if YOU don't think it's worth thinking about, for Maker's sake let's waste no more time on it! I certainly won't. :)
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby SandChigger » 15 Oct 2010 04:10

    After Gurney threatens Jessica's life, believing her to have been the traitor, Paul decides to try to change the Water of Life...
    In Dune (Ch 44), FH wrote: The decision had come to Paul while he faced the tension of danger to his mother. No line of the future he had ever seen carried that moment, of peril from Gurney Halleck. The future—the gray-cloud-future—with its feeling that the entire universe rolled toward a boiling nexus hung around him like a phantom world.

    Paul's failure to see Halleck's unexpected act seems to conform to Tycho's view of prescience, but what are we to make of Paul's apparent belief here that he should have been able to foresee such a threat from an individual, as well as his belief that changing the WoL would augment his prescient visions (to the degree that such would be possible?), which had grown fewer in number and "dimmer" as his body acclimated to the high spice level of the Fremen environment?
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