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    Pearls of Awareness

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    Postby Spicelon » 20 May 2008 23:42

    Omphalos wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:I think FH may have intened something for the pearls in the latter books.

    He obviously didn't include it in the outline for "Dune 7".


    $10 says that perverson has Leto leaving Sabiha a "pearl necklace of awareness" when they get to the CoD interquel.


    ...aaaaaand...there it is. It was only a matter of time. Was anybody else waiting to see who flynched first? ;)
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 21 May 2008 00:11

    Yup, knew it was coming eventually.
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    Postby HoosierDaddy » 21 May 2008 01:20

    The deeper meanings of FH's works are no secret.

    I spent many an hour reading and discussing the finer points of the original series. The golden path, the "4 deaths", the pearls of awareness, the "missionaria project", the "ghola project", and so on. The old DOD site was a haven for learning and imagining what FH was really thinking in the original series.

    Freak was there. He remembers the rich discussion, the theories, the wonder that FH created in the Duniverse.

    What will forever piss me off, is that neither Brian Herbert nor Kevin Anderson cared enough to spend the time to understand where the old man was really going in Dune 7.

    Call it lazy, arrogant, stupid, whatever. The mockery that P&B made of Dune is unforgivable to me.

    Byron, when you next see Brian, ask him this. Is it really worth it?

    And Byron, ask yourself the same question before you issue another "internet abuse" complaint against a FH fan. Paying the bills and sending your kids to college from the HLP profits is great, just make sure to teach your kids about FH's "noble purpose" concept. In this case, not by example obviously.

    :oops:
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    Postby orald » 21 May 2008 05:33

    HoosierDaddy wrote:Is it really worth it?

    *Looks up from counting the greenary*

    Hmm?
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby Serkanner » 21 May 2008 06:44

    HoosierDaddy wrote:The deeper meanings of FH's works are no secret.

    I spent many an hour reading and discussing the finer points of the original series. The golden path, the "4 deaths", the pearls of awareness, the "missionaria project", the "ghola project", and so on. The old DOD site was a haven for learning and imagining what FH was really thinking in the original series.

    Freak was there. He remembers the rich discussion, the theories, the wonder that FH created in the Duniverse.

    What will forever piss me off, is that neither Brian Herbert nor Kevin Anderson cared enough to spend the time to understand where the old man was really going in Dune 7.

    Call it lazy, arrogant, stupid, whatever. The mockery that P&B made of Dune is unforgivable to me.

    Byron, when you next see Brian, ask him this. Is it really worth it?

    And Byron, ask yourself the same question before you issue another "internet abuse" complaint against a FH fan. Paying the bills and sending your kids to college from the HLP profits is great, just make sure to teach your kids about FH's "noble purpose" concept. In this case, not by example obviously.

    :oops:


    I quote this post just because I can not express myself better then expressed by hoosierdaddy.
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    Postby loremaster » 21 May 2008 11:04

    Again i gotta say, (and i know im always complaining about something or another).........But i dont like how perfectly good threads degenerate into Prequel bashing.

    I know, i hate what they've done too. But what really pisses ME off is when good threads are derailed by pointless remarks about prequels.

    We cant change what they've done, but what we do seem to do is descend into whinging about them instead of productive dune discussion.

    With that in mind.....





    Remember that towards the end of CH:D Sheanna contemplates taking the wormskin, becoming Goddess Empress Sheanna. The missionaria had already paved the way for her.

    I actually still consider it a viable plotline for D7 (Which, AFAI am concerned, hasnt been written yet). I think Odrade was worried about sheanna and the sisterhoods plan for her because of this very reason, and thats why she planned to leave the sisterhood to murbella.

    But then what was Sheanna's plan? Tamalane approved.

    But no, i dont hold that the "pearls" held humanity in a prescient trap. The power of prescience since the scattering was limited to hunting individuals (eg duncan) and navigating. It was a more subconscious awarenes post-tyrant, i think.

    Someone has postulated before that the pearls were a complete lie. I think it depends on whether you think the pearls were conscious, or (as i think leto says at one point) just a set of instincts within each worm.
    The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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    Postby Omphalos » 21 May 2008 11:13

    I dont think that the pearls were conscious, because the worms after GEoD really were not changed too much. It was just kind of like an animal instinct in them that was different. When some stimulus (dance, maybe others too?) was encountered, they stopped instead of continuing to eat.

    I think it was all part of the attempt to break the spice monopoly that Leto thought was strangling the empire. I keep going back to this, I know, but what other purpose could there be in controlling worms? Except in certain contexts, they are not very effective weapons, and they'd make shitty pets. The worms were an agricultural/manufactory for spice. That is really it, aside from some religious uses. No, the worms had to be controlled so that they could be more easily brought off planet, so that they could spread and make spice on many other planets. That would make space travel, especially deep-space travel much cheaper and therefore more viable, and would directly serve the purpose of hte Golden Path by continuing to spread humanity to more and more places.
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    Postby HoosierDaddy » 21 May 2008 11:35

    loremaster wrote:Again i gotta say, (and i know im always complaining about something or another).........But i dont like how perfectly good threads degenerate into Prequel bashing.

    I know, i hate what they've done too. But what really pisses ME off is when good threads are derailed by pointless remarks about prequels.

    We cant change what they've done, but what we do seem to do is descend into whinging about them instead of productive dune discussion.

    With that in mind.....



    I agree with all of this. The urge to keep bashing and pointing fingers at the HLP is not easy to control, and I, for one, need to let it go. Not to say I won't fall off the wagon again...

    :oops:
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    Postby Tyrant » 21 May 2008 11:40

    loremaster wrote:Again i gotta say, (and i know im always complaining about something or another).........But i dont like how perfectly good threads degenerate into Prequel bashing.

    I know, i hate what they've done too. But what really pisses ME off is when good threads are derailed by pointless remarks about prequels.

    We cant change what they've done, but what we do seem to do is descend into whinging about them instead of productive dune discussion.


    Boo this man!!! :mad:

    enough can never be said about what they've done .... anyone who's read sandworms knows that ...the prequals are one thing.. but to take a dump on the original 6 like hunters and sandworms does..is inexcusable ..... and their is never enough bashing...ever
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    Postby HoosierDaddy » 21 May 2008 12:02

    Omphalos wrote:I think it was all part of the attempt to break the spice monopoly that Leto thought was strangling the empire. I keep going back to this, I know, but what other purpose could there be in controlling worms? Except in certain contexts, they are not very effective weapons, and they'd make shitty pets. The worms were an agricultural/manufactory for spice. That is really it, aside from some religious uses. No, the worms had to be controlled so that they could be more easily brought off planet, so that they could spread and make spice on many other planets. That would make space travel, especially deep-space travel much cheaper and therefore more viable, and would directly serve the purpose of hte Golden Path by continuing to spread humanity to more and more places.


    Imagine a stadium city like Onn, on the planet Sheeana and Duncan settle at. Picture Sheeana (and maybe Duncan), with a sandworm at her side.

    "The divided god is not God!". The crowd roars.

    So much for Leto's old religion, and Guldur, Dur, etc. Add in a little religious jihad in the scattering, and this might be the Missionaria project's goal.

    :smoke:
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    Postby Omphalos » 21 May 2008 13:11

    HoosierDaddy wrote:
    Omphalos wrote:I think it was all part of the attempt to break the spice monopoly that Leto thought was strangling the empire. I keep going back to this, I know, but what other purpose could there be in controlling worms? Except in certain contexts, they are not very effective weapons, and they'd make shitty pets. The worms were an agricultural/manufactory for spice. That is really it, aside from some religious uses. No, the worms had to be controlled so that they could be more easily brought off planet, so that they could spread and make spice on many other planets. That would make space travel, especially deep-space travel much cheaper and therefore more viable, and would directly serve the purpose of hte Golden Path by continuing to spread humanity to more and more places.


    Imagine a stadium city like Onn, on the planet Sheeana and Duncan settle at. Picture Sheeana (and maybe Duncan), with a sandworm at her side.

    "The divided god is not God!". The crowd roars.

    So much for Leto's old religion, and Guldur, Dur, etc. Add in a little religious jihad in the scattering, and this might be the Missionaria project's goal.

    :smoke:


    Im not quite sure what you are saying here. Is it that when the masses realize that Sheanna can control worms, they will conclude that the "deification" of worms was wrong? Im not sure that the Missionaria would want to give up such an obviously powerful religious icon like the worms, especially since they can be co-opted and used to consolidate power within the BG, even if they could co-opt Sheanna as a replacement. That is, after all, what the Missionaria was all about.
    Last edited by Omphalos on 21 May 2008 13:14, edited 1 time in total.
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    Postby Omphalos » 21 May 2008 13:13

    HoosierDaddy wrote:
    loremaster wrote:Again i gotta say, (and i know im always complaining about something or another).........But i dont like how perfectly good threads degenerate into Prequel bashing.

    I know, i hate what they've done too. But what really pisses ME off is when good threads are derailed by pointless remarks about prequels.

    We cant change what they've done, but what we do seem to do is descend into whinging about them instead of productive dune discussion.

    With that in mind.....



    I agree with all of this. The urge to keep bashing and pointing fingers at the HLP is not easy to control, and I, for one, need to let it go. Not to say I won't fall off the wagon again...

    :oops:


    Sorry all. When it comes to bashing those too assholes I post what I think of and dont think too much about it. That's just me.

    And BTW Hoosierdaddy, you will never be "on the wagon" until you get rid of those absolutely hilarious sigs. :wink:
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    Postby HoosierDaddy » 21 May 2008 13:35

    Omphalos wrote:Im not quite sure what you are saying here. Is it that when the masses realize that Sheanna can control worms, they will conclude that the "deification" of worms was wrong? Im not sure that the Missionaria would want to give up such an obviously powerful religious icon like the worms, especially since they can be co-opted and used to consolidate power within the BG, even if they could co-opt Sheanna as a replacement. That is, after all, what the Missionaria was all about.


    I think the sandworm would be the religious icon for Sheeana. Similar to what Leto did with Paul's water, and akin to the Christian bible containing the old testament.
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    Postby orald » 21 May 2008 15:55

    Omph is correct. The plan was to use Sheeana's control to say something more like "she controls the devided god, she's the prophet, listen to her donate to the BG war-fund today!".

    There's absolutely no reason at all to collapse the old divided god religion as that would make the worms practically useless.

    "Gee weez, she can control sandworms, who'd have thunk, eh? Let's go see the bearded lady and flea circus next!"
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby Omphalos » 21 May 2008 16:15

    Oh, I see what HoosierDaddy was saying. Yes, he agrees with us. I just neglected to put that in my earlier answer too, because I was talking about use in the continued scattering, nad forgot for a moment about religoius uses.
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    Postby orald » 21 May 2008 16:19

    Omphalos wrote:Oh, I see what HoosierDaddy was saying. Yes, he agrees with us.

    But:
    HD wrote:"The divided god is not God!". The crowd roars.

    You sure this goes together with what we said? :?
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

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    Postby Omphalos » 21 May 2008 16:52

    orald wrote:
    Omphalos wrote:Oh, I see what HoosierDaddy was saying. Yes, he agrees with us.

    But:
    HD wrote:"The divided god is not God!". The crowd roars.

    You sure this goes together with what we said? :?


    That's where I got hung up too. orald. but I think he is using it as a negative example. An example of something that would happen if the worms only had economic significance, which is what I mistakenly suggested in the post he was responding to. He was telling me that I missed something big.
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    Postby HoosierDaddy » 21 May 2008 18:55

    I think I agree with you guys concerning not using the phrase "the divided god is not god". That would play into the Atriedes manifesto's purpose, but not in developing a new religion based on the old.

    Certainly control of the sandworms would be central to the new religion, but my mind is now drawing a blank on where Sheeana would go from there to create "believers". Would people follow her just because the sandworms do tricks for her? Besides taking the sandtrout skin, what other amazing things could she do to prove her godhead?
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    Postby Freakzilla » 21 May 2008 20:05

    HoosierDaddy wrote:I think I agree with you guys concerning not using the phrase "the divided god is not god". That would play into the Atriedes manifesto's purpose, but not in developing a new religion based on the old.

    Certainly control of the sandworms would be central to the new religion, but my mind is now drawing a blank on where Sheeana would go from there to create "believers". Would people follow her just because the sandworms do tricks for her? Besides taking the sandtrout skin, what other amazing things could she do to prove her godhead?


    She already had billions praying to her, thinking she and all the worms were dead. Just showing up with a worm at her side would be enough.
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    Postby orald » 21 May 2008 20:10

    I think they will follow her even just for the tricks she makes the worms perform.

    But due to circumstances, Sheeana's been turned into a saint/martyr.

    1. She was known in Arrakis(and byond) for helping the poor, saving them from the evil proud priests etc.
    2. She controlled the worms.
    3. She supposdly died with all the worms by the HM.
    4. The HM got a bit of a bad reputation after reaving and slaughtering throughout the old empire.
    5. The BG, being hunted and all, were seen as the "good guys"(gals?) and people were missing them, thinking of the "good ol' times" when there were BG around.

    Now, if she comes back from the "dead", controlling worms and is a BG, I do believe she could get alot of support from the simple folk, to say the least.

    All these points are discussed within Ch:D BTW, including #5.
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

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    Postby HoosierDaddy » 21 May 2008 22:48

    orald wrote:I think they will follow her even just for the tricks she makes the worms perform.

    But due to circumstances, Sheeana's been turned into a saint/martyr.

    1. She was known in Arrakis(and byond) for helping the poor, saving them from the evil proud priests etc.
    2. She controlled the worms.
    3. She supposdly died with all the worms by the HM.
    4. The HM got a bit of a bad reputation after reaving and slaughtering throughout the old empire.
    5. The BG, being hunted and all, were seen as the "good guys"(gals?) and people were missing them, thinking of the "good ol' times" when there were BG around.

    Now, if she comes back from the "dead", controlling worms and is a BG, I do believe she could get alot of support from the simple folk, to say the least.

    All these points are discussed within Ch:D BTW, including #5.


    Nicely done.

    I may have underestimated your FH prowess, grasshopper.

    :P
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    Postby loremaster » 22 May 2008 02:54

    Baraka Bryan wrote:
    [a term that P&B use so incessantly to try and make it seem like it was their creation {damnit did it again (but it's just so easy!)}]


    Nice triple brackets there :) .

    Do any of you think sheanna would attempt to take the skin? I know she imagines it.

    I know tam approved of the escape. but Sheanna KNEW what she was doing when she escaped a)With a sandworm and b) with duncan and teg.

    Then again she did offer duncan the chance to leave (but, i feel, only knowing he wouldnt).

    Maybe Tam didnt like the direction the Honoured Gesserit were going to take either?

    But then i know that once merging them was complete (merging wasnt going to be easy), we'd be left with "reverend mothers with superior reflexes".

    Just WHAT did sheanna intend? was she going to obstruct the golden path (or attempt to?). Did she not learn the tyrants lesson? Or, would she follow Taraza's beliefs and try to demystify the tyrant? (thats what the BG had been trying to do for 3000 years, remember).


    I think the pearls, that said, were probably a means, not an end. The pearls were to give worms that transplant-friendly adaptive awareness. The point to the pearls, IMO was to make worms adaptable. To be aware of Siaynoq. (That "rhythm of life" we should all "get in tune" to.... which reminds me.... Duncan remembers Siaynoq right?)
    The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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    Postby SandChigger » 22 May 2008 03:18

    Um...how could she obstruct the Golden Path? :?
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    Postby orald » 22 May 2008 06:32

    I don't think she'd have taken on the skin. Doesn't she contemplate on it and decideds not to?

    HoosierDaddy wrote:I may have underestimated your FH prowess, grasshopper.

    Where's that quote from? I mean the grasshopper bit, I think WC3 has it for the orcish blademaster's comments too. :?

    And if I'm already asking some off topic stuff, what does FWIW stand for?
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

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    Postby Dune Nerd » 22 May 2008 06:47

    orald wrote:
    And if I'm already asking some off topic stuff, what does FWIW stand for?


    For what it's worth.
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