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    Postby loremaster » 22 May 2008 07:04

    Chig - Why do you say it has succeeded? What evidence do you have for this? As far as im concerned, the golden path cannot "Succeed", it can just postpone failure.

    Without getting into infinity again. There can be no point where leto can draw a line and say "If i reach this point, humanity is saved" - The golden path is not about that.

    Again, the word "Path" implies an ending and is possibly somewhat misleading. There is no "utopian" state at which you can draw a line and say "humanity is saved". At any one point you can only draw a line and say "Well we arent dead YET".

    You say it yourself, how you pick on Freak every time he says "the scattering made humanity infinite". If humanity isnt INFINITE, it is possible at some time in the distant future, to be sufficiently finite again that it can be englobed/destroyed/whatever.

    AND, considering the prevalence of worship out in at least PARTS of the scattering (remember the HM worship DUR, a name for the GE). Its highly likely the already almost mythical sheanna could be ressurected, uniting the church of the divided got (ESPECIALLY if she took the skin), much of the old empire (esp. considering the "NEW" BG might be looked upon as at least part HM. The BG were gambling with their reputations by absorbing the HM). Also much of the scattering, who would be drawn back into that "messiah" mystique Leto tried to remove.

    In short, sheanna and the worms were a REAL threat to the golden path. Humanity cant draw a line and say "we're saved forever". And an old empire, church of the Divided god, Bene Gesserit Loyalties and lord-knows-how-much of the scattering which could easily be united into an empire much like pauls, only bigger. What a disaster that would be for the golden path. It would take out a fair whack of humanity. Including the BG (whom i think Leto intended as "Guardians" of the golden path, awakening them to this role with tricks like writing on walls, talking to chenoeh etc).
    It would reaffirm the messiah mystique in survivors.

    If sheanna wanted, she could be a real problem to the golden path.
    The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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    Postby orald » 22 May 2008 07:39

    But humanity is "infinite", and scattered byond an oracle(even a Normacle :lol: ) can see, thanks to the Siona gene.

    The old empire is a dust mote, it's not humanity and it means nothing whatsoever in the GP anymore.

    You could possiblly make a huge empire again from the scattering as well, but the scattering isn't a bubble like the old empire was, it's scattered(hence the name) and no one knows or can find all the groups, which meanwhile produce even more scatterings of their own.
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby loremaster » 22 May 2008 07:52

    Orald: Maybe this is down to interpretation etc again then but i disagree most strongly, what evidence do you have that humanity is "infinite"? also:

    The old empire DOES matter, thats why the HM came back to steal choice bits of it (BG spice mastery etc).
    It contains the only worms, the only sources of spice (worm and tleilaxu).

    Unless you are willing to say that the golden path is now completely beyond the tyrants influences (Taraza, Odrade, Duncan and Sheanna arent) then it is ALSO the place from which all Leto's influence on the GP must come (whether its by writing on walls, or whatever).

    Humanity is NOT infinite, can never BE infinite. It may be very large, and very tricky to find. But NOT infinite. It is unlikely all the elements of the scattering could bring about their own destruction (or natural disasters engulf them etc) BUT you have to concede it is possible. If they all began to feel the tug of the old empire (like the HM did), then it will eventually collapse in on itself again. IMO, that was the whole point to Leto manipulating the BG (merging them with a larger unit to give then numbers, maturing them to care, a la odrade and teg etc). The BG are custodians of the golden path, and Leto wouldnt set up custodians if the golden path wasnt going to require the occasional push, or redirection to keep going.
    The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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    Postby orald » 22 May 2008 09:24

    The HM cme back as fugitives, not of their own choice.
    They came back because compared to even their part of the scattering the old imperium is small and weak.
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby loremaster » 22 May 2008 10:07

    It IS small and weak.... but also contains some of the most symbolic and powerful things in the universe....... the bene gesserit, the sandworms and the spice, for three.

    They could have fled in many directions, but chose to come back to the old empire because they thought what was there might help them fight back.

    You havent addressed any of my points.
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    Postby Tleilax Master B » 22 May 2008 11:11

    loremaster wrote:It IS small and weak.... but also contains some of the most symbolic and powerful things in the universe....... the bene gesserit, the sandworms and the spice, for three.

    They could have fled in many directions, but chose to come back to the old empire because they thought what was there might help them fight back.

    You havent addressed any of my points.

    There are Bene Gesseritt, and presumably worms, and potentially spice in the Scattering--that's no longer limited to the Old Empire at that point.

    The HM are running from an enemy, but doing so in a slash and burn fashion. They cut a swath through the systems they come to, always on the move and always conquering. I don't think its too incorrect to call them "fugitives."

    Obviously nothing can be truly "infinite", but megatrillions is a hell of a lot by my calculations.

    The Golden Path. Infinite? What of the lost megatrillions gone into the
    Scattering? What threat was posed by those Lost Ones returning now?
    ~HoD

    Waff continued to stare at her in simulated puzzlement. Her words did not smack of revelation. Still, the things implied! He said: "Your words leave me floundering."
    "Humankind has become infinite," she said. "That is the true gift of the Scattering."
    Waff fought to conceal the turmoil these words created. "Infinite universes, infinite time -- anything may happen," he said.
    ~HoD

    So let's settle on "a whole fucking lot" shall we? :D
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    Postby loremaster » 22 May 2008 11:41

    I'm 100% with you on the idea that the scattering is "a whole fucking lot".

    And i do agree that failure of the golden path at any one point in time ( say, between 4.30 and 6.30 on saturday night) is incredibly small. However when dealing with this "infinity" you have to bear in mind that we're talking about an "infinite" length of time also.

    (admittedly we probably arent, the universe will almost certainly end someday - BUT time is as vast, vaster in my opinion, than the scattering).

    My point is, humanity is NOT safe from all threats no matter what forever and ever. (or is that what you think? If yes, i`d like to know your reasons why).

    The old empire, and links to it from the scattering (Still worshipping DUR etc) are all ties which could limit humanities growth, and need constant vigilance less the golden path fail.


    a)Do you think the golden path means humanity is no longer at threat from anything, even in an infinite space of time, forever, until the end of the universe?

    b)Fugitives tho the HM may be, they still felt the pull of the "Old Empire". Whether or not the HM chose this way or not does NOT invalidate my argument that humanity is STILL tied to certain aspects of the old empire. Worship of Leto for one. The temptation of spice (potentially, such as the HM) for another. Also, i`m fairly sure there were not spice and worms out in the scattering. Its certainly never mentioned there was. And its highly unlikely since BG in extremis and FS formed the HM. Using a spice subsitute. To me its likely the extremis was "running out of spice" due to lack of it in the scattering. Also - why was it so significant that they sent out sandtrout and worms when the BG were scattered in CH:D if it was already out there?

    c) Sheanna had powerful links to many communities in the scattering, ESPECIALLY if she had taken the sandtrout skin. The religious fervour which spread out from her could cripple humanity. Maybe not exterminate it all in one go. BUT make it highly likely that the dwindled numbers would be eliminated sooner or later.


    Apart from the spice in the scattering, i dont disagree with anything you're saying. I just thing you're failing to understand the golden path was a road, not a destination. It's like phaedrus said on the infinity thread - You cant walk to infinity by starting at one, no matter how hard you try. So eventually a faster runner could catch you up.

    Eventually a faster predator (religious fanatics, plague, new addictive drugs, Teg being able to see the no-ships etc) COULD catch up to the edges of the scattering and cripple it.
    The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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    Postby orald » 22 May 2008 11:41

    Tleilax Master B wrote:So let's settle on "a whole fucking lot" shall we? :D

    That'd be my answer as well. And screw semantics and mathematics and their view of infinity.

    loremaster wrote:You havent addressed any of my points.

    Well, I'm a bit lazy lately, but the above is one.

    The old empire is a nice weak territory to conquer, and they do have a "soft spot" for their original "homeland", as I recall it being said, if somewhat differently, probably in Ch:D.

    I do believe the GP is byond the tyrant's/oracle tinkering.
    Who can find them all? Not prescients, that's for sure.
    Even the ones who discovered a way to see no-ships(a mentat[?] conclusion in Ch:D), like Teg, can't see people.
    There's just no way of finding them all, and they just keep expanding, might be even to parellel(sp?) universes.

    The only influence God Leto's "pearls" might have had was really just about in the old empire, and even that was severely weakened when all the worms but one died, as was Taraza's plan all along.
    By the time they grow back in numbers and might be able to influence the old empire humanity would be far ahead.
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby loremaster » 22 May 2008 11:51

    Hah, simultaneous post :).


    Freak would have you believe the Siona Gene is nullifiable. I dont think Teg did it. BUT in an "infinite" (your word) scattering is it possible that someone will seek a way through the siona gene?

    Sure as eggs is eggs, its already happened.

    Not Teg.

    Marty and Daniel.
    Whatever they are they could see Duncan, Teg, the bene gesserit and everyone else on that no-ship.

    And, i suspect, every other no ship in the universe too.

    You cant claim to have an "infinite" scattering and then in the same breath claim that there are certain "absolutes" like the inviolability of the siona gene.

    The "NET" was a vital plotline of D7. Whatever it was, it tied marty and daniel (SFDs) to all people, regardless of space (and maybe time, who knows?).

    Ironically, the only one to see the net and escape was the one WITHOUT a siona gene.

    So much for prescience protection.
    The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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    Postby orald » 22 May 2008 11:58

    We'd go in circles if we theorize what the Net is. We just don't know for sure.

    And I'll agree to everything you say for now, can't really bother to keep argueing, my mind does seem to wander away from Dune talk of late... I blame ASoIaF and D2. :cry:

    Speaking of which, I registered over at Westros.org(still awaiting admin validation)...guess my display name(maybe Mandy could). :P
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

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    Postby Mandy » 22 May 2008 12:09

    IMO, the only "pull" the old empire had was that it was familiar territory, as opposed to the unknown. The HM were running from an enemy, they knew they'd need basic necessities to survive. They could have run into unknown territory (and maybe some of them did), where maybe they could find food, and fuel, or they could turn towards the old empire where they knew they'd find those things. Plus they believed that taking those things through force would be easy for them.. which it was.

    I don't think Sheeana was as big a threat to the GP as you believe she would have been, loremaster. The people scattered far and wide, news of her taking the sandtrout skin would take thousands of years to spread to all of humanity. By then people would have other religious beliefs.. plus I don't think it was even possible for news to spread to all of humanity anymore. There would be "a whole fucking lot" of people out there unaware of anything happening in the old empire.
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    Postby Tleilax Master B » 22 May 2008 12:23

    I'm 100% with you on the idea that the scattering is "a whole fucking lot".

    And i do agree that failure of the golden path at any one point in time ( say, between 4.30 and 6.30 on saturday night) is incredibly small. However when dealing with this "infinity" you have to bear in mind that we're talking about an "infinite" length of time also.

    (admittedly we probably arent, the universe will almost certainly end someday - BUT time is as vast, vaster in my opinion, than the scattering).

    My point is, humanity is NOT safe from all threats no matter what forever and ever. (or is that what you think? If yes, i`d like to know your reasons why).

    The old empire, and links to it from the scattering (Still worshipping DUR etc) are all ties which could limit humanities growth, and need constant vigilance less the golden path fail.



    a)Do you think the golden path means humanity is no longer at threat from anything, even in an infinite space of time, forever, until the end of the universe?

    I think it means that no one threat can destroy all of humanity. That’s the whole point of the Golden Path. Spread humans in such enormous numbers, so far spread out that nothing can kill them all. You couldn't possibly find them all, and in the meantime they are still breeding and their numbers growing....


    b)Fugitives tho the HM may be, they still felt the pull of the "Old Empire". Whether or not the HM chose this way or not does NOT invalidate my argument that humanity is STILL tied to certain aspects of the old empire. Worship of Leto for one. The temptation of spice (potentially, such as the HM) for another. Also, i`m fairly sure there were not spice and worms out in the scattering. Its certainly never mentioned there was. And its highly unlikely since BG in extremis and FS formed the HM. Using a spice subsitute. To me its likely the extremis was "running out of spice" due to lack of it in the scattering. Also - why was it so significant that they sent out sandtrout and worms when the BG were scattered in CH:D if it was already out there?

    First of all, the BG sent out their own Scattering, that’s what I was referring too. Not the original “Scattering”. Secondly, the sisters took sandtrout with them. They were going to seed other worlds. Why do you think they all failed? Just because it wasn’t mentioned, doesn’t mean it failed. We never got to see the result of it. Either way, I frankly think its irrelevant to the topic at hand—can the golden path be threatened.

    c) Sheanna had powerful links to many communities in the scattering, ESPECIALLY if she had taken the sandtrout skin. The religious fervour which spread out from her could cripple humanity. Maybe not exterminate it all in one go. BUT make it highly likely that the dwindled numbers would be eliminated sooner or later.

    There are countless civilizations, of millions/billions/trillions of humans that the “cult of sheeana” would never even come into contact with or have any indication existed. Galaxies and galaxies away with no idea what might be taking place elsewhere in this or another universe. Once again, that’s the point of the GP—to spread humanity out so far and in such numbers they can never be threatened as a species again. So my answer would be “no” a cult of sheeana in the scattering would not even be close to a threat to humanity.


    Apart from spice in the scattering, i dont disagree with anything you're saying. I just thing you're failing to understand the golden path was a road, not a destination. It's like phaedrus said on the infinity thread - You cant walk to infinity by starting at one, no matter how hard you try. So eventually a faster runner could catch you up.

    I corrected myself above; I meant the BG scattering. The Golden Path was “the survival of humanity. Nothing more, nothing less” as Leto II himself said. I don’t see it as a “road” or a “destination”, it was a plan that Leto II saw to insure someone like him could never affect the futures of all humanity ever again. And he used his powerful prescience to look into the future and make sure it worked. It did.

    As far as your comments above about the Siona Gene. Yes, Teg can see it. And Marty and Daniel can see it—which is not surprising because they aren’t using prescience. YOU could see someone with the Siona gene in person, or on a video camera, etc., so I kind of don’t get your point. But, as Freak has pointed out, the main purpose of the Siona Gene was for the Scattering. Once the Famine times and the Scattering were complete, the Siona gene is much less important IMHO. No-ships also serve this purpose. But they aren’t really as important now that megatrillions are scattered through multiple galaxies (and perhaps universes).

    Lastly, I think the whole reason the HM went into the Empire was to try to figure out the secrets of the BG, especially the ability to control internal chemistry, which would allow them to fight off biological warfare. They did this the only way their culture knows how--barge in and try to force it out of everyone.
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    Postby Dune Nerd » 22 May 2008 12:31

    I agree with Master B, the GP was not to insure that no threats would ever come upon humanity, rather that said threat would no longer destroy all of humanity. It seems that this is the meaning of infinite that it is untouchable, from calculus a function will approach infinity but never actually reach it. Based on that approach you can estimate what the effects of the function are at 'a whole fucking lot.' The effect here being that humanity would not perish from any threat because it is entirely too large.
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 May 2008 12:32

    There is definitly no realistic way that someone or something could derail the GP. Just because humanity isn't technically infinite, and could theoretically all die unrelated deaths at some point, doesn't mean that anyone could bring that about. For every single human being in the universe to go extinct from unrelated causes would take long enough that no one gives a shit. Much more likly that humanity as we know it would phase out eventually, but I beleive LetoII said something about "widening the definition of what is human".
    Unless someone for a destroy the universe button, I think the GP is safe.
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    Postby orald » 22 May 2008 16:34

    loremaster wrote:Eventually a faster predator (religious fanatics, plague, new addictive drugs, Teg being able to see the no-ships etc) COULD catch up to the edges of the scattering and cripple it.

    ...Or half-assed robots? :roll: I always knew you were a preek at heart. :x

    God Leto's golden Path didn't fail, infidel! :evil:

    TMB wrote:Lastly, I think the whole reason the HM went into the Empire was to try to figure out the secrets of the BG, especially the ability to control internal chemistry, which would allow them to fight off biological warfare. They did this the only way their culture knows how--barge in and try to force it out of everyone.

    How did I forget this? :oops:

    The HM only really wanted one thing from the BG, like TMB said.

    AToE wrote:Unless someone for a destroy the universe button, I think the GP is safe.

    Just wait till Leto, The 2nd, God Emperor, of Like, Dune comes out.
    After that star destroying ship he made up for SW, you know KJA's gotta top it. :roll:
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    Postby SandChigger » 22 May 2008 19:45

    GEoD II: Return of the Pearls!

    Pearls of Dune: Leto's Familiar Jewels!

    Dune Wormcast: Like Pearls Before Sligs

    Hmmm. Not quite there yet, but I'll keep trying! ;)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby orald » 22 May 2008 20:07

    Golden Pail of Dung? :P
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby Omphalos » 22 May 2008 20:35

    The Golden Annoyance.
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    Postby Tleilax Master B » 22 May 2008 21:39

    orald wrote: How did I forget this? :oops:


    My professional opinion? Your aversion to drugs and booze has clouded your memory with an evil disease known as "sobriety" :D
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    Postby loremaster » 23 May 2008 03:11

    Hmm,

    I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Although I do appreciate what you're saying (Humanity is MASSIVE), you've both just said "no ONE threat (my emphasis) could destroy humanity" - I'm not talking about one threat.

    I'm talking about many, in series, which might limit human growth.

    Massive humanity divided by massive time (for disasters to happen) is 1. A finite number which can have an end.

    I agree the ultimate aim of the golden path was humanity's survival. But what im saying is... what evidence do you have to think it is safe yet? Big numbers dont mean anything. There's no point scattering people who are still immature enough to get themselves killed.

    I personally do not think the golden path is safe until humanity (probably guided by the BG) is matured to the point where it can recognise such destructive behaviour as hero-worship for itself.

    Ergo, i do not think humanity is safe yet.
    The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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    Postby loremaster » 23 May 2008 03:18

    [quote="Tleilax Master B"][quote]

    As far as your comments above about the Siona Gene. Yes, Teg can see it. And Marty and Daniel can see it—which is not surprising because they aren’t using prescience. YOU could see someone with the Siona gene in person, or on a video camera, etc., so I kind of don’t get your point. But, as Freak has pointed out, the main purpose of the Siona Gene was for the Scattering. Once the Famine times and the Scattering were complete, the Siona gene is much less important IMHO. No-ships also serve this purpose. But they aren’t really as important now that megatrillions are scattered through multiple galaxies (and perhaps universes).

    [quote]

    My point was that the siona gene guaranteed nothing. It (like most things along the golden path) allowed temporary breathing space. It's ability to hide people was only for a short time.
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    Postby SandChigger » 23 May 2008 05:04

    Forget about the Golden Path. When it was achieved, it ceased to matter. It's "aim" or "purpose" wasn't human survival. It was human survival.

    If there are people alive somewhere in the universe, the Golden Path endures. And as long as there are people, they have the potential of evolving into something new and better.

    That was the point, no? Giving the species the chance to expand and develop more freely and hopefully mature. But just as everyone cannot be saved from every possible disaster or bad thing that may happen (no one is ever truly "safe"), there are no guarantees.

    But it's starting to seem really silly to keep objectifying the Path and waffling on about it "being in danger" and what all. Gah. :roll:
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    Postby loremaster » 23 May 2008 05:36

    I think you're contradicting yourself there chig.

    You say once it is achieved (once what is achieved, exactly?) then it ceases to matter...... but then you say yourself that it only exists as long as people exist....

    So of course it can still be threatened if it became possible to threaten all people in all places. (or, kill off half the universe in one go, then the other half later).

    By your own statement, anything which threatens people... CAN threaten the golden path. Therefore you contradict yourself, because it has been achieved... and yet still matters. Or are you trying to imply that the golden path is in a state of continual "achievement" so long as there are people? (which would support my theory that it CAN, at some point in the distant future, fail).
    The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
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    Postby leto247 » 23 May 2008 05:36

    loremaster wrote:I personally do not think the golden path is safe until humanity (probably guided by the BG) is matured to the point where it can recognise such destructive behaviour as hero-worship for itself.

    Ergo, i do not think humanity is safe yet.



    Remember that Humanity that fled to the Scattering is not the same as it was in the days of Paul, or even as we know it today.
    Part of Leto II's stated goal was to "teach humanity a lesson that they will remember in their bones". So I think that they can recognise that self-destructive pattern.
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    Postby loremaster » 23 May 2008 05:39

    People keep saying "the golden path WAS/IS human survival"... Human survival with what conditions?

    At a certain date? to reach a certain number by a certain date?

    You cant simply state "it was humanities survival, and therefore it worked because we are all still alive" without accepting then that either:

    a)the golden path had a "deadline" and supports the idea of avoiding a specific threat. The golden path would become "survival in the face of...." ie, if we survive this, we survive everything, or:

    b)the golden path CAN at some point in the future fail if all people are extinguished.


    Which is it?
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