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    Postby loremaster » 23 May 2008 05:44

    leto247 wrote:
    loremaster wrote:I personally do not think the golden path is safe until humanity (probably guided by the BG) is matured to the point where it can recognise such destructive behaviour as hero-worship for itself.

    Ergo, i do not think humanity is safe yet.



    Remember that Humanity that fled to the Scattering is not the same as it was in the days of Paul, or even as we know it today.
    Part of Leto II's stated goal was to "teach humanity a lesson that they will remember in their bones". So I think that they can recognise that self-destructive pattern.


    So you are saying that the golden path is now "finished" because people have been matured to that point?

    I dont disagree with that sentiment. I just mean that you cant say "we're mature enough now, the golden path doesnt matter" without then realising that if we become more immature, or revert, then that danger reappears.

    So, I agree with you, but i do think it is not a "we hit X maturity by target Y, so we're safe". I think its a "We need to be X mature by Y, and if we ever fall below X again, we might end up destroying ourselves, so we better not".
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    Postby leto247 » 23 May 2008 06:26

    loremaster wrote:I think you're contradicting yourself there chig.

    You say once it is achieved (once what is achieved, exactly?) then it ceases to matter...... but then you say yourself that it only exists as long as people exist....

    So of course it can still be threatened if it became possible to threaten all people in all places. (or, kill off half the universe in one go, then the other half later).

    By your own statement, anything which threatens people... CAN threaten the golden path. Therefore you contradict yourself, because it has been achieved... and yet still matters. Or are you trying to imply that the golden path is in a state of continual "achievement" so long as there are people? (which would support my theory that it CAN, at some point in the distant future, fail).


    As I understand it, all the Dune Chronicles is the process of humanity self-regulation. By the time of Paul, humanity had become so stagnated that it required a lot of gene mixing to avoid extinction which ended in the Jihad (we are talking about in-Duniverse logic here).
    However it was not enough as Leto II foresaw that humanity would end if it remained confined within the known universe, that this lack of exploration and growth would cause the eventual destruction of humanity.
    I have always supposed that under Leto´s regimen people not only were rarely allowed to travel offplanet but also they were told: "no, you can´t go to that wooooooonderful universe out there, yes, yes, is wooooooonderful but you must stay at home were you are safe becouse in that woooooooonderful universe out there you wont be safe" , only a little more subtly, you know, "plans within plans" and all that stuff :D .
    It´s like that Simpsons´s episode where Chief Wiggum tells Ralph "What is your fascination with my forbidden closet of mysteries?", that during 3500 years sure will increase your desire for exploring.

    Now, let´s suppose that it were indeed possible to threaten all humanity post-Golden Path, may it be by "the Net" (kids, the net is just for porn :) ) or may it be any other thing. I think that humanity would self-regulate again but this time it won´t be by a charismatic leader (i think Leto ended that) this will be in the hands of formidable people. I think Dune 7 would had been like that, Heretics and Chapterhouse alredy insinuated that becouse there were no real protagonist, no real hero but an ensemble cast .
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    Postby leto247 » 23 May 2008 06:46

    loremaster wrote:
    leto247 wrote:
    loremaster wrote:I personally do not think the golden path is safe until humanity (probably guided by the BG) is matured to the point where it can recognise such destructive behaviour as hero-worship for itself.

    Ergo, i do not think humanity is safe yet.



    Remember that Humanity that fled to the Scattering is not the same as it was in the days of Paul, or even as we know it today.
    Part of Leto II's stated goal was to "teach humanity a lesson that they will remember in their bones". So I think that they can recognise that self-destructive pattern.


    So you are saying that the golden path is now "finished" because people have been matured to that point?

    I dont disagree with that sentiment. I just mean that you cant say "we're mature enough now, the golden path doesnt matter" without then realising that if we become more immature, or revert, then that danger reappears.

    So, I agree with you, but i do think it is not a "we hit X maturity by target Y, so we're safe". I think its a "We need to be X mature by Y, and if we ever fall below X again, we might end up destroying ourselves, so we better not".



    And i agree with you :D . But at the end I think that Leto only did what needed to be done at a precise time. That doesn´t mean that The Golden Path is incompatible with further developments that will need to be done depending of what humanity may find out there. It´s a classic example of Bertrand Russell´s Theory of types: that you are inside the Golden Path doesn´t mean that you can´t be also in the Emerald Path or the Diamond Path or whatever necessary. In fact, the problems that humanity will have to face in the Scattering will be so varied that it can happen that "sector 0000001" of the Scattering is in the Golden Path/ Emerald Path group while humanity in "sector 9837645" is in the Golden Path/ Diamond Path/ Kill´em all group.
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    Postby Freakzilla » 23 May 2008 12:24

    In an old voice, Leto said: "There's no single set of limits for all men.
    Universal prescience is an empty myth. Only the most powerful local currents of
    Time may be foretold. But in an infinite universe, local can be so gigantic that
    your mind shrinks from it."
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 23 May 2008 13:07

    Man... why does this keep going? No force could possible challenge the entire scattered humanity. No way no how. They could theoretically go extict some day, every world independantly, but nothing could precipitate it. It would have to be a trillion x a trillion independant extinctions.
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    Postby orald » 23 May 2008 13:50

    Well, AToE, that's the whole point of them brandishing this "infinite universe, infinite possibilies" as a reason why they could die.

    Raise a hand anyone who thinks it's any bloody likely that this can happen before the whole goddamned universe implodes or whatever it's supposed to do in the end. :roll:
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 23 May 2008 14:21

    orald wrote:Well, AToE, that's the whole point of them brandishing this "infinite universe, infinite possibilies" as a reason why they could die.

    Raise a hand anyone who thinks it's any bloody likely that this can happen before the whole goddamned universe implodes or whatever it's supposed to do in the end. :roll:


    Are you argueing with me or agreeing with me?
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    Postby SandChigger » 23 May 2008 14:44

    Heat Death or Big Crunch, take your pick, eventually all humans die and the Path ends.

    Yawn? :roll:
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    Postby orald » 23 May 2008 14:57

    Agreeing, AToE. SC just summerized my post.
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby Raveem » 13 Oct 2008 12:40

    I'm not certain Sheeana could become (another) God Empress, and am inclined to discount that possible path entirely.

    The worm transformation was only one aspect of Leto's rule: it gave him long life and (some limited) physical superhumanity, which is useless in the face of concerted force. What actually cemented Leto's rule over humanity was the hydraulic despotism: no spice, no worms to produce spice, complete (unto destruction) control of existing spice and Leto's own safety necessary for any future (infinite [Hah!]) production of spice via worms. His vast gifts in breeding, intelligence, ancestral (not Other) memory and prescience allowed him to use his million days usefully too (Golden Path).

    This simply cannot happen with Sheeana. The Scattering and the eventual knowledge (Scytale) of spice production means humanity cannot be bottled up with the same threat again: the Scattering doesn't care about spice and the Old Empire knows it can be synthesised. Where does this leave a human who can survive that first difficult moment of described by Leto necessary for symbiosis? As a symbiote that no one gives a damn about. Try to act like an empress and a few disgruntled groups will simply band together and kill you: you have no weapon to threaten them with.

    I'm not even going to try to broach the Pearls topic in the same breath!

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    Postby Freakzilla » 13 Oct 2008 16:19

    A child of Teg and Sheeana might be able to control the worms (metamorphasis) and see no-people/no-ships.

    If they could control the metamorphasis they could stay humanoid (maybe even reverse it), gain the strenth, possibly prescience and near invulnerability. Here would be a good reason for Tleilaxu Master to engineer a sandtrout that wouldn't dart off towards water.

    If they can see no-people too they might be a threat to the GP, that is only if it had stalled once outside of Leto's Vision.
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    Postby Rakis » 13 Oct 2008 22:07

    I still think FH was going for an Idaho/Sheeana hybrid, something about Idaho's gene found in the Scattering, maybe a part of the Ones with Many Faces...the child would be able to use the Net...hmmmm...
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    Postby Laphtiya » 14 Oct 2008 10:37

    Or It could be a cycle. Everyone knows about the God Emperor and they might see Sheanna as his return to save them from the Honored Matres. The people would rise up and fight them thinking there God has returned. Yes he was a Tyrant but considering rule under the Honored Matre it could be better :) Also Dune is no more, The Axlotol tanks are no more, spice will run out eventually.

    The Golden path could simply be a cycle. Leto II prolonged the human race for over 3000 years, it could simply be a cycle. It is now Sheanna's turn to prolong the human race for another 3000 years. The pearl of awareness could be like shared memory. As a Bene gesserit she could access these memories, see what Leto had in mind and follow it through as the new Goddess Emperess .(when you say that out loud thats why Leto was the one who became the Emperor. From my understanding it is all about change, the Imperium had become stagnant and old. Humans were not changing/developing and when something becomes stagnant it dies. Leto changed all that and perhaps he forsaw that the Honored Matres/Bene Gesserit would do the same thing in the long run.
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 14 Oct 2008 11:43

    The GP is the opposite of a cycle. It's getting out of a cycle. Once out of the cycle and spread out, I doubt there would or could be any renewing of the path.
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    Postby Laphtiya » 14 Oct 2008 13:29

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:The GP is the opposite of a cycle. It's getting out of a cycle. Once out of the cycle and spread out, I doubt there would or could be any renewing of the path.


    Sorry lol, when I said cycle I ment in the process of its continuation. One path could come to and end and then some one else continues it down their own path bringing new change and experiances to the human race. However for this to happen some one needs to make the sacrifice that Leto made to continue the human race down their golden path. Not that the GP is a cycle itself because that goes against the whole purpose of the GP to get away from stagnation. Perhaps it is what Leto intended, that some one will always come along to continue his Golden Path so it never ends.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby Tycho » 05 Oct 2010 17:48

    Leto II ensured through his political reign and continued influence for 1500 years after death (through the pearls) that nothing could ever again threaten all of humanity, including a second God-Emperor or an evil kwasitz-haderach.

    He gave humanity the means and urge to explore and resettle, and then the time to scatter far and wide, along with protective measures like no-ships and no-people and spice availability. The Golden Path was his vision and by implication his stewardship for the human race. When his stewardship finally ended no subsequent Golden Path was possible or necessary.

    I think it's a philosophical question left open to debate whether his stewardship was designed to merely prevent extinction or achieve that and a good deal more (eg. general improvement of human behaviour). From some points of view, irrational behaviour will always lead towards death and extinction in the long term, so in order for the race to survive indefinitely protection wasnt enough, correction of attitudes/philosophies/behaviours would also be required.

    I think of the Golden Path sort of like the question of will the universe implode in the Big Crunch or will it expand infinitely. Will humanity implode or will it pass the critical threshold.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 05 Oct 2010 20:03

    A lot of what FH wrote about in Dune actually warns against attempts to normalize human behavior - this leads to stagnation which FH believe was in the long term more dangerous than chaos. I (personally) do not think that the Golden Path would have included any real attempts to permanently "mellow" people because of this, FH was pretty hell bent on getting across that he thought our erratic and dangerous nature is in fact a good thing, it's only when we strive for peace and the status quo that we get into real danger.

    I would agree that our behaviour will probably get us killed on one (this?) planet, but when scattered over nearly endless worlds it's unlikely to happen so systematically that every single group of people wipe themselves out.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby Tycho » 05 Oct 2010 21:26

    It wouldn't necessarily be about making everyone mellow out though. I think most of the social ills in the Duniverse are pinned not on peace, but on the institutions and systems that enforce/ensure dormancy for the special interests of a few. There's lots of attacks on burgeoning bureaucracies and class division and centralized governments and 'the nanny state,' as well as universal human weaknesses like seeking religions/prophets rather than facing up to bare reality. When Leto first has a prescient vision he sees not only images of the physical world, but he sees the abstract 'structures' behind institutions and power-bases and other social patterns. His aim could be to make humanity wise to 'society's invisible parts' (CoD p285) and thus give more freedom to individuals to achieve all they can. Certainly a lot of the Atriedes maxims etc. are very individualistic, like Muad Dib's observation that the difference between depriving a man of an hour of his life (through government) and depriving him of his life completely is only a matter of degree, or the preacher's letter to CHOAM saying a society is only as good as its individuals (not its organization etc.).

    Some things Leto II made inevitable, for instance limiting space travel to create overpopulated worlds followed by famine times, which would result in a diaspora when the opportunity to spread presented itself. But once a certain spread had been achieved, and equilibrium regained, wouldn't they stagnate once more? This is where some 'lessons' would be useful, to make humanity forever a moving target, a collection of pioneering and endeavoring explorers. But I agree with other posters that people don't just go 'remember what X taught us!' The lesson needs to be somehow made innate or intuitive or unignorable. I think the answer is that once the masses have reached a certain level of wisdom (eg. awareness of social patterns), the predators can no longer suppress them, because they can't turn their own ignorance against them. Without this suppression, things can continue in a generally more enlightened state. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me type thing.

    We don't know what really went down out in the Scattering except that at least one group, the HM, acted in a decidedly UNenlightened way. I figure this just shows that nothing's ever guaranteed totally, but also I actually believe the part about them being descended from Tlielaxu females/tanks and driven by a rage so intense it overrides any other historical context. But then again, I wouldn't be surprised if Leto II really wasn't expecting any sort of moral improvement at all, just an infinite expansion.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby Freakzilla » 08 Oct 2010 08:41

    :clap:
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Oct 2010 13:47

    Sorry I haven't added more to this and the other discussion yet, I hope to get to it eventually!

    I think you'll fit in very nicely around here.
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    Re:

    Postby reverendmotherQ. » 13 Oct 2010 18:45

    Laphtiya wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:The GP is the opposite of a cycle. It's getting out of a cycle. Once out of the cycle and spread out, I doubt there would or could be any renewing of the path.


    Sorry lol, when I said cycle I ment in the process of its continuation. One path could come to and end and then some one else continues it down their own path bringing new change and experiances to the human race. However for this to happen some one needs to make the sacrifice that Leto made to continue the human race down their golden path. Not that the GP is a cycle itself because that goes against the whole purpose of the GP to get away from stagnation. Perhaps it is what Leto intended, that some one will always come along to continue his Golden Path so it never ends.


    It's interesting, this becoming god idea to make that sacrifice. Can a god sacrifice anything? I suppose it was his humanity he gave up in order to whip humanity into shape for the scattering.

    Correct me if this is obviously senile.
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    Re: Re:

    Postby Freakzilla » 13 Oct 2010 18:57

    reverendmotherQ. wrote: I suppose it was his humanity he gave up in order to whip humanity into shape for the scattering.

    Correct me if this is obviously senile.


    Don't you have to be old to be senile?

    Regardless, you're right.
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    Re: Re:

    Postby reverendmotherQ. » 13 Oct 2010 19:08

    Freakzilla wrote:Don't you have to be old to be senile?

    Regardless, you're right.


    Not always. lol. Stress has probably prematurely started me on my psychological spiral.

    I thought Herbert's version of "sacrifice" was more interesting with Leto II than with the take most people would have gone with it. He isn't a Christ figure from how I viewed it. More of a Moses with a "staff" that didn't just part the sea but caused it to churn and lash out over the shore. His golden path isn't a plan for boring salvation but for "bringing" in the "new" back into life.
    That's just down right riveting.
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    Re: Re:

    Postby Laphtiya » 14 Oct 2010 05:56

    reverendmotherQ. wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Don't you have to be old to be senile?

    Regardless, you're right.


    Not always. lol. Stress has probably prematurely started me on my psychological spiral.

    I thought Herbert's version of "sacrifice" was more interesting with Leto II than with the take most people would have gone with it. He isn't a Christ figure from how I viewed it. More of a Moses with a "staff" that didn't just part the sea but caused it to churn and lash out over the shore. His golden path isn't a plan for boring salvation but for "bringing" in the "new" back into life.
    That's just down right riveting.


    I don't see him as a Christ figure either, he did sacrifice his humanity in order to wake up the humanity in everyone else. He basically knocked the ant hill down to it was rebuilt better and stronger and made it so it would always be changed and never stagnant. What I was meaning is perhaps Leto intended that someone would always be there to make sure his Golden Path would continue, he set himself up to begin the process but knew he would not live forever so he made it so his work would always go on and on. Leto never hinted that the GP was "salvation" he mearly said it was the continuation of humans forever, that he prevented their extermination and set it so that could never happen. I wouldn't even say he was a Moses figure leading his people to the promised land.
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    Re: Pearls of Awareness

    Postby redbugpest » 14 Oct 2010 08:56

    Tycho wrote:It wouldn't necessarily be about making everyone mellow out though. I think most of the social ills in the Duniverse are pinned not on peace, but on the institutions and systems that enforce/ensure dormancy for the special interests of a few. There's lots of attacks on burgeoning bureaucracies and class division and centralized governments and 'the nanny state,' as well as universal human weaknesses like seeking religions/prophets rather than facing up to bare reality. When Leto first has a prescient vision he sees not only images of the physical world, but he sees the abstract 'structures' behind institutions and power-bases and other social patterns. His aim could be to make humanity wise to 'society's invisible parts' (CoD p285) and thus give more freedom to individuals to achieve all they can. Certainly a lot of the Atriedes maxims etc. are very individualistic, like Muad Dib's observation that the difference between depriving a man of an hour of his life (through government) and depriving him of his life completely is only a matter of degree, or the preacher's letter to CHOAM saying a society is only as good as its individuals (not its organization etc.).

    Some things Leto II made inevitable, for instance limiting space travel to create overpopulated worlds followed by famine times, which would result in a diaspora when the opportunity to spread presented itself. But once a certain spread had been achieved, and equilibrium regained, wouldn't they stagnate once more? This is where some 'lessons' would be useful, to make humanity forever a moving target, a collection of pioneering and endeavoring explorers. But I agree with other posters that people don't just go 'remember what X taught us!' The lesson needs to be somehow made innate or intuitive or unignorable. I think the answer is that once the masses have reached a certain level of wisdom (eg. awareness of social patterns), the predators can no longer suppress them, because they can't turn their own ignorance against them. Without this suppression, things can continue in a generally more enlightened state. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me type thing.

    We don't know what really went down out in the Scattering except that at least one group, the HM, acted in a decidedly UNenlightened way. I figure this just shows that nothing's ever guaranteed totally, but also I actually believe the part about them being descended from Tlielaxu females/tanks and driven by a rage so intense it overrides any other historical context. But then again, I wouldn't be surprised if Leto II really wasn't expecting any sort of moral improvement at all, just an infinite expansion.


    I agree with the majority of what you say here, the last line in particular. It is right in line with Leto II's words in GEoD.

    And what is the Golden Path? you ask. It is the
    survival of humankind, nothing more nor less. We who have prescience, we who
    know the pitfalls in our human futures, this has always been our responsibility.
    Survival.


    I don't think that there is any real point, though, where wisdom alone is enough to override the predatory nature of some. That comes more form a strength of character and conviction rather than wisdom alone. The HM were not an exception to historical context - they were an example of the norm. Generally, people do not like chaos and change, but prefer order and predictability. Unfortunately, Order and Predictability are what lead to entropy. The golden path was a means of disrupting humanity to foster expansion and innovation. Expansion is not a guarantee of continued life, but it does increase the odds dramatically as it continues.

    I think that, even though Leto II mentions that the goal is survival, he could not be certain, since he did not use his prescience to look forward (the trap Paul fell into). This was part of the setup for what was to come after CHoD, IMHO. Nothing is certain.... :)
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