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    "I will die four deaths....."

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    "I will die four deaths....."

    Postby Tleilax Master B » 22 May 2008 13:14

    "You know how you will die?"
    "Not how. I know only the Golden Path in which it will occur."
    "Lord, I do not. . ."
    "It is difficult to understand, I know. I will die four deaths the death of the
    flesh, the death of the soul, the death of the myth and the death of reason. And
    all of these deaths contain the seed of resurrection."
    "You will return from..."
    "The seeds will return."
    ~GEoD

    I've always been fascinated by what Frank meant for each of these (well, one of them is fairly obvious). Unfortunately, some of our opinions are probably tainted by the steaming heaps of crap they call "sequels", but I can't help but wonder if more would have been revealed about this in a Frank Herbert Dune 7.

    So, any thoughts on what he meant by each of these?
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    Re: "I will die four deaths....."

    Postby Tleilax Master B » 22 May 2008 13:25

    bryanvdk wrote:
    Tleilax Master B wrote: And
    all of these deaths contain the seed of resurrection."
    "You will return from..."
    "The seeds will return."
    ~GEoD


    So, any thoughts on what he meant by each of these?

    i think it's important to note that Leto makes it known that he himself will not return, but rather the "seeds" with a possible connection to the pearls of awareness....

    i.e. no ghola leto/baby/worm combos


    Oh no, of course. The seeds obviously mean the sandtrout with the pearls in the one case, but "all" of these deaths contain the seed of resurrection, so who knows what he meant by that?
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    Re: "I will die four deaths....."

    Postby Omphalos » 22 May 2008 13:29

    Tleilax Master B wrote:"You know how you will die?"
    "Not how. I know only the Golden Path in which it will occur."
    "Lord, I do not. . ."
    "It is difficult to understand, I know. I will die four deaths the death of the
    flesh, the death of the soul, the death of the myth and the death of reason. And
    all of these deaths contain the seed of resurrection."
    "You will return from..."
    "The seeds will return."
    ~GEoD

    I've always been fascinated by what Frank meant for each of these (well, one of them is fairly obvious). Unfortunately, some of our opinions are probably tainted by the steaming heaps of crap they call "sequels", but I can't help but wonder if more would have been revealed about this in a Frank Herbert Dune 7.

    So, any thoughts on what he meant by each of these?


    Personally, I wonder about the order Leto spoke them, and/or what the meaning of "the death of reason" means. I kind of get the first three though. Not sure Im right, of course, but here is what I think:

    The death of flesh: Obvious. Leto will die.

    The death of the soul: That thing that makes him Leto will die, though a "pearl of awarness" will remain. His body and his Leto-ness are gone, but something remains.

    The death of the Myth: I suppose this means that over time that memory of Leto's myth will fade in the mind of humans. Doesnt seem that happened much, though.

    The death of reason: For my money, this one should have gone before the death of the myth. I have no idea, but if I take a wild guess, it could mean that the death of real knowledge about Leto will die, as opposed to the myths that successive generations tell about him. If this is what it means, then it does go before the death of the myth because this will be lost within one generation (whereas the death of the myth will take many generations), when those who knew Leto died.

    But he also says that all of these deaths, including the death of reason, include the "seeds of resurrection." This implies that something will come from Leto that germinates into something Leto-like in the future, but it also suggests that Leto himself will come back. IOW, Its a metaphor for re-birth and growth, but its a mixed metaphor. The word "resurrection" implies that Leto himself will come back from the dead and rise again (resurrection) but the use of the "seed" metaphor implies reincarnation, which is when a soul gets a new body. That is why I find it confusing.

    There is also the possiblilty that Herbert intended a mixed metaphor. Consider this: The worms that came after Leto died all contained a "pearl of (his) awareness" in them. This could be the part of him that is resurrected time and again, because if you buy what I stated above, it is an actual part of him coming back again and again (its a product of Leto, even if it does not bear his consciousness). But that pearl is encapsulated in a worm, which is a differnt host each time for that pearl, so on another level (but in the same context) that worm is a reincarnation of Leto, as it holds a bit of him in it.

    I dont know. This is a bit more touchey-feeley than I like to get with Dune. Although I am also starting to realize that application of scientific principles to Dune just does not work at all. Consider the mathematic application of the word "infinite." We cant even agree on that.
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    Postby HoosierDaddy » 22 May 2008 13:46

    This is an old mystery that pops up on every FH site.

    My take is:

    Death of the flesh- The fall off the bridge, ending his "mortal" life
    Death of the soul- The pearls of awareness in sandworms.
    Death of the myth- His religion and godhead.
    Death of reason- His "noble purpose", his reason for why he did what he did.

    Seeds of resurrection could be:

    1. Creating a ghola Leto. But "it" would not have any special oracular abilities, since the Siona gene put his (and Paul's) style of prescience out of business.
    2. Somebody taking the sandtrout skin.
    3. Rekindling his old religion.
    4. Creating a new golden path, if a big enough threat to humanity were to arise (as in Marty and Daniel as super face dancers, controlling the scattering).
    5. The pearls of awareness arise again after the sandworms populate new worlds.

    Or something totally different...

    :smoke:
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 May 2008 13:54

    This maybe belongs in the pearls thread, but if Sheeana had taken the sandtrout skin... each sandtrout had to contain the same pearls of awareness (or at least the seeds of) that the worms do, or the chain would be broken with each generation. If there was ever going to be a 'resurrection' beyond the ssandworms, this is how I would imagine it would happen.

    I also have no Idea what the death of reason is, or why it's last on the list.
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    Postby HoosierDaddy » 22 May 2008 14:03

    Concerning the death of reason, both Leto and Paul were concerned that they would be called shaitan after they died. Leto took great pains to hide his journals so they would be found much later after he died.

    Leto's "death of reason" probably happened a few centuries after his mortal death, when he started to be called a tyrant (and shaitan).

    :crackpipie:
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    Re: "I will die four deaths....."

    Postby Spice Grandson » 22 May 2008 16:30

    Tleilax Master B wrote:"You know how you will die?"
    "Not how. I know only the Golden Path in which it will occur."
    "Lord, I do not. . ."
    "It is difficult to understand, I know. I will die four deaths the death of the
    flesh, the death of the soul, the death of the myth and the death of reason. And
    all of these deaths contain the seed of resurrection."
    "You will return from..."
    "The seeds will return."
    ~GEoD

    I've always been fascinated by what Frank meant for each of these (well, one of them is fairly obvious). Unfortunately, some of our opinions are probably tainted by the steaming heaps of crap they call "sequels", but I can't help but wonder if more would have been revealed about this in a Frank Herbert Dune 7.

    So, any thoughts on what he meant by each of these?


    The death of the flesh is pretty obvious: His original self dies when he falls from the bridge.

    Death of the soul: I think Leto saw his consciousness as a type of soul, so when his consciousness ceased to exist and became only pearls of awareness in the new worms, his soul ceased to exist too.

    Death of the myth: All myths die out and Leto wasn't foolish enough to believe he was any different. His time would come and go, just like any other great figure in history. He would be cast aside in favor of something new (Uh-oh! I'm getting close to heretical here!)

    Death of reason: Meaning his reason for being would die out, too. I'm going to step on some OH toes here, but I think this means his Golden Path might die off, too -- after all, what was Leto's "reason" for living? Something to think about. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Frank loved to kill off his characters and their reasons for being (from The Old Duke, to Duke Leto, to Paul, to Leto II ...all of them suffered real deaths and deaths of reason).

    The deaths containing the seeds of resurrection: meaning he could come back as a ghola, or something along those lines, after these other deaths occurred.

    This is a bit touchy-feely for Frank, but I think he got that way a bit more toward the end of Chapterhouse. Odrade was becoming aware of the sisterhoods need to understand the strength they held via the love they felt for each other, even though they never state this to each other outright. Interesting passage, though.
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    Re: "I will die four deaths....."

    Postby orald » 22 May 2008 17:13

    Spice Grandson wrote:Death of reason: Meaning his reason for being would die out, too. I'm going to step on some OH toes here, but I think this means his Golden Path might die off, too -- after all, what was Leto's "reason" for living? Something to think about.

    I think you're close to something, but then you go the other way around.
    The GP just can't fail anymore.

    I think maybe "reason" was, like you said, his reason to stay around- i.e the GP.
    But once humanity became "infinite" it was completed, there was no more reason for him to be.

    This might also mean the death of all but one of the sandworms, which the BG suspected of guiding and locking the old empire in his vision.
    Once there was no real reason for them to stay(early on in the famine times they were needed for their spice, until the BT came along with artificial one and Ix with nav' machines), their death came, the death of Leto's reason to stick around.
    Last edited by orald on 22 May 2008 17:15, edited 1 time in total.
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

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    Re: "I will die four deaths....."

    Postby orald » 22 May 2008 17:16

    bryanvdk wrote:i totally just said that :P

    Arrgh, blast ye! :x
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby Omphalos » 22 May 2008 17:17

    Im sure that if FH had meant "purpose" when he wrote the word "reason," he would have thought better of it and switched to "purpose."
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    Postby Mandy » 22 May 2008 18:45

    No way do I think the "seeds of resurrection" refer to Leto coming back as a ghola. IMO, the seeds were all the sandtrout that came from him when he fell off the bridge. I think the resurrection was when Sheeana called the worms.
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    Postby Omphalos » 22 May 2008 18:47

    Mandy wrote:No way do I think the "seeds of resurrection" refer to Leto coming back as a ghola.


    Yes. I meant to vehemently argue this in my last post too, but I forgot.
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    Postby Mandy » 22 May 2008 18:57

    Leto didn't do much as a ghola in the sequels anyway did he? Not much point in that kind of resurrection.
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    Postby HoosierDaddy » 22 May 2008 18:59

    Omphalos wrote:
    Mandy wrote:No way do I think the "seeds of resurrection" refer to Leto coming back as a ghola.


    Yes. I meant to vehemently argue this in my last post too, but I forgot.


    A ghola Leto would be worthless in any FH Dune 7/8 scheme of things.
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    Postby Omphalos » 22 May 2008 19:05

    Mandy wrote:Leto didn't do much as a ghola in the sequels anyway did he? Not much point in that kind of resurrection.


    IIRC, it was reported that he did some incomprehensible shape shifting, then later looked whistfully at the sunset. After that, nothing of consequence at all.
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    Postby SandChigger » 22 May 2008 19:32

    Just wanted to chime in here: if FH meant reason=purpose/explanation/cause/justification there, he fooked up the English. Sorry, but I can't see the reading some of you want (and need).

    I also don't see "seeds" meaning gholas.

    Again, what good are gholas of millennia-outdated models, even of God Emperors? Is the universe some fuzzy-wuzzy "fair" place where people who have lost or sacrificed everything get a second chance? Juvenile CRAP. :roll:
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    Postby HoosierDaddy » 22 May 2008 19:58

    Even super face dancers had little use for gholas. Something about them being a dime a dozen...

    :FH small:
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    Postby SandChigger » 22 May 2008 20:07

    With economies of scale I bet they were much cheaper than that on the "Ithaca" (snicker). :wink:
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    Postby orald » 22 May 2008 20:20

    SandChigger wrote:With economies of scale I bet they were much cheaper than that on the "Ithaca" (snicker). :wink:

    I can hear the gholas argueing how they had to work 25 hours a day and pay for it, and then their father would kill them when they got home.

    In the snow. Both ways. :lol:
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    Re: "I will die four deaths....."

    Postby SimonH » 22 May 2008 20:25

    Spice Grandson wrote:
    Tleilax Master B wrote:"You know how you will die?"
    "Not how. I know only the Golden Path in which it will occur."
    "Lord, I do not. . ."
    "It is difficult to understand, I know. I will die four deaths the death of the
    flesh, the death of the soul, the death of the myth and the death of reason. And
    all of these deaths contain the seed of resurrection."
    "You will return from..."
    "The seeds will return."
    ~GEoD

    I've always been fascinated by what Frank meant for each of these (well, one of them is fairly obvious). Unfortunately, some of our opinions are probably tainted by the steaming heaps of crap they call "sequels", but I can't help but wonder if more would have been revealed about this in a Frank Herbert Dune 7.

    So, any thoughts on what he meant by each of these?


    The death of the flesh is pretty obvious: His original self dies when he falls from the bridge.

    Death of the soul: I think Leto saw his consciousness as a type of soul, so when his consciousness ceased to exist and became only pearls of awareness in the new worms, his soul ceased to exist too.

    Death of the myth: All myths die out and Leto wasn't foolish enough to believe he was any different. His time would come and go, just like any other great figure in history. He would be cast aside in favor of something new (Uh-oh! I'm getting close to heretical here!)

    Death of reason: Meaning his reason for being would die out, too. I'm going to step on some OH toes here, but I think this means his Golden Path might die off, too -- after all, what was Leto's "reason" for living? Something to think about. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Frank loved to kill off his characters and their reasons for being (from The Old Duke, to Duke Leto, to Paul, to Leto II ...all of them suffered real deaths and deaths of reason).

    The deaths containing the seeds of resurrection: meaning he could come back as a ghola, or something along those lines, after these other deaths occurred.

    This is a bit touchy-feely for Frank, but I think he got that way a bit more toward the end of Chapterhouse. Odrade was becoming aware of the sisterhoods need to understand the strength they held via the love they felt for each other, even though they never state this to each other outright. Interesting passage, though.


    I think there have been deaths of reason in the interpretation of the text in some cases ;)

    The word "reason" is used in the context of reasoning ability. Byron, in these cases Occum's razor would conflict with your arguments.

    And it says above that Leto thinks he will not return, only "the seeds will return"

    <subjective> I take the seeds of resurrection to be the clarity of the golden path being resurrected, not leto in person </subjective>
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    Postby Tleilax Master B » 22 May 2008 21:24

    SandChigger wrote:Just wanted to chime in here: if FH meant reason=purpose/explanation/cause/justification there, he fooked up the English. Sorry, but I can't see the reading some of you want (and need).

    I also don't see "seeds" meaning gholas.

    Again, what good are gholas of millennia-outdated models, even of God Emperors? Is the universe some fuzzy-wuzzy "fair" place where people who have lost or sacrificed everything get a second chance? Juvenile CRAP. :roll:


    Exactly. I agree with Chig. That's not what was meant by "reason."

    Believe it or not, even I don't like the idea of Leto returning as a ghola. For one freaking thing, there was a reason why Frank deliberately did not mention those cells being in the nullentropy tube. Because they weren't f-ing there. So there is absolutely no way Frank was brining back the Prophet. He had run his course in the story (a rather significant course!!).
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    Postby SandChigger » 22 May 2008 21:26

    Ah, voices of reason! :D
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby Omphalos » 22 May 2008 22:06

    SandChigger wrote:Ah, voices of reason! :D


    Well than what did it mean?
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    Postby SandChigger » 23 May 2008 01:25

    Omphalos wrote:Well than what did it mean?

    If that I knew, would I not poetic wax? ;)
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    Postby loremaster » 23 May 2008 03:11

    I'm gonna actually go stand next to byron for this one:

    I cannot see any reason to think humanity is super-safe-from-all-threats-forever.

    When a massive amount of humanity is divided by a massive amount of time, the result is 1. When measured against "infinite" time in the universe, nothing is secure forever. Not even the golden path.

    I know there is a tendancy on this forum to hold everything leto did as sacrosanct and infallible, But as i`ve said before i dont think the Golden Path can "succeed", it can just "not fail" indefinately. I also think the one of the key plots of the BG is their maturation through various processes into caretakers of the golden path. Why? because humanity needs constant vigilance.

    the golden path IS humanity's survival, but what evidence do you have it has already happened? I think part of the golden path includes maturing humanity (in particular the BG) so that they can guard the golden path themselves

    With that in mind, i`ve gone for a similar interpretation to Hoosier:

    Death of the flesh = plop.

    Death of the soul = the death of the last sandworm in humanities distant future (which hasnt happened yet).

    Death of the myth = the death of all that deification surrounding Leto. Death of the sandworms, death of his godhead (probably at the hands of the BG). The death of cults of Dur and Sheanna. Everything around him as the prophet by the tleilaxu. The point at which people realise he is only human.

    Death of reason = The death of the reason for his existence, when everything which he built is superceded. This occurs when humanity has matured to the point where it can manage the golden path itself.
    also:

    Why do you think it means reasoning ability? Surely his reasoning ability goes LONG before the soul, and the myth. Evidence:

    Sandworms cannot reason, they are instinctual.

    Infact, i might even argue that Leto loses his reasoning ability before he even dies, (he says himself it is a threat to the GP to marry Hwi, against all sense). He also gets angry and whips the tleilaxu envoy, saying "i am diminished". No, im afraid "reason" in this context means the reason for his existence. (You said yourself it you think it should come before myth, - so ask yourself, why did frank not write it thus?)
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