Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Oct 2013 12:55

The Baron had no intention of a prolonged conflict with the Atreides. His (Piter's) strategy was one overwhelming, decisive attack. That's why he needed the Sardaukar, who's transport he also paid for.

I don't think a prolonged war of attrition would have been less expensive.
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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 08 Oct 2013 23:41

Serkanner wrote:
Frybread wrote:What's interesting is I never got the impression that Feyd was anything special. Sure he was a good hand-to-hand combatant, but he never seemed all that intelligent or special, like Paul. I would think the potential parent of a super-being would have possessed a genius-level intellect to go along with the physical gifts.


He survived his uncle ... you need to be rather special to accomplish that, don't you think?


Besides being the prettiest nephew in House Harkonnen, Feyd does have ruthless ambition and intelligence. The Baron would hate to waste a nephew prettier than the Rabaan, but Feyd has more brains than Rabaan, so Feyd has all the qualities the Baron needs as a true successor. He may not be as smart as Paul, but he has inherited a bit of the Baron's intelligence, so he has his uses.

Freakzilla wrote:I don't think the Baron was wasteful. He kept Piter around even though he distrusted and disliked him because he was still useful. He employed Thufir Hawat when Piter died suddenly! I don't think paying for troop transport is a good example, it was military genius. The Atreides NEVER would have expected that magnitude of attack BECAUSE the price would be prohibitive.


We don't know how much money the Baron spent on keeping Piter alive. He died numerous times before the Baron got a much better bargain by abducting my beloved Thufa. You know how expensive those Gholas can be, especially when you got to go through the trouble of getting Piter remember that his name is Piter every time he's resurrected.

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:Really? I get the impression that the Baron's nervous fidgeting is meant to mark him as "not human" in the BG sense: he doesn't have his own body under control.


His nervous fidgeting could be more the result of having clogged arteries and extreme fatty liver from being so massively overweight at his age.
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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby Apjak » 09 Oct 2013 07:58

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote: He died numerous times before the Baron got a much better bargain by abducting my beloved Thufa. You know how expensive those Gholas can be, especially when you got to go through the trouble of getting Piter remember that his name is Piter every time he's resurrected.


Is this canon? I know that the Baron has gone through a number of Twisted Mentats, but I don't recall restored memories before Duncan-Hayt.
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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Oct 2013 09:02

It's not from FH's books.
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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby Cpt. Aramsham » 09 Oct 2013 09:56

In fact, there's a deleted scene from the book where Piter talks about his mother.

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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 09 Oct 2013 10:10

Freakzilla wrote:It's not from FH's books.


Then I must be tried for heresy immediately. Freak, take the Water-of-Life soaked chrysknife to my veins!
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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Oct 2013 12:46

Don't worry about it, it's easy to understand how one can be corrupted by the putrid filth from the hacks.
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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby Naïve mind » 09 Oct 2013 16:11

Freakzilla wrote:The Baron had no intention of a prolonged conflict with the Atreides. His (Piter's) strategy was one overwhelming, decisive attack. That's why he needed the Sardaukar, who's transport he also paid for.


And whose effectiveness still completely depended on the cooperation of Doctor Yueh. Why not ask him to simply administer poison to the Duke and his family?

I think the book answers this; The Baron ruled his subjects by fear; he wanted to rule the Landsraad in the same way. His victory over the Atreides had to be a brutal show of force. And more importantly, he wanted to gloat over the Duke, in person.

The Baron is a very interesting character--second only to Paul in complexity, and much less accessible--but Frank Herbert did not write him as a paragon of human discipline and rationality.

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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby lotek » 12 Oct 2013 17:54

I reckon poison, as discreet as it might sound, would have been within the scope of kanly, and a lot more "regulated", and would have pointed too many fingers towards whoever benefited.
The attack set on Arrakis, as brutal as it was, was still kind of "out of sight" since official information could not aknowledge it without proof. A proof no one was going to produce (and I remember something about hostages from each House or family of importance on Arrakis being secured by the Baron and/or the Emperor, but I also remember the Duke saying something about hostages too, so on that I'm not entirely sure).

Also, the Baron wanted Arrakis back for sure, but it was his to start with and the Emperor's giving it to the Atreides was just part of the plan. His true goal was to crush the Duke and destroy the Atreides, because he hated him and it also removed a potential heir to Shaddam's throne, since the Baron's secret goal was to have Feyd become Emperor.

Twisted old bastard, Hawat must have had a field day on Giedi Prime playing one against the other.
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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby Naïve mind » 13 Oct 2013 07:05

lotek wrote:Also, the Baron wanted Arrakis back for sure, but it was his to start with and the Emperor's giving it to the Atreides was just part of the plan. His true goal was to crush the Duke and destroy the Atreides, because he hated him and it also removed a potential heir to Shaddam's throne, since the Baron's secret goal was to have Feyd become Emperor.


Yes, but note how the plan works out marvelously well for the Emperor in the short term. Both the Harkonnens and the Atreides are a nuisance. The Harkonnens have wealth, the Atreides have status. So he lets one spend most of their wealth humiliating the other. And all it costs him are a couple of legions of Sardaukar.

It doesn't make sense for the Baron to cripple himself, and leave himself at the mercy of the emperor (the Fenrings politely hint that the Sardaukar could pay him a visit next) solely for the long shot of getting ungrateful little Feyd on the imperial throne.

But, since I'm multiplying hypotheses anyway:

  • Maybe Piter deVries was co-opted by the Empire. He's certainly devious enough to deceive Baron Harkonnen, and I don't FH ever showed us his thoughts.
  • Maybe the large assault was a way to get imperial approval. The Baron makes himself look like an oaf to the imperial court, willing to bankrupt himself for petty revenge. The Emperor grabs the chance to let one problem take care of the other, and gives his assent and his Sardaukar. The Baron counts on his secret spice hoards to keep him in fighting shape, but Hawat's strike force takes out most of them. Which leads to plan B, milking Arrakis for all it's worth, and setting up Feyd as a benevolent ruler.

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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby lotek » 13 Oct 2013 10:30

Plans within plans indeed.

Everyone is using everyone to meet their own personal goals, some of which seem to be concurrent at times.

The Baron's plan to seize the imperial mantle for the Harkonnen is his ultimate secret, only him and Piter know that his revenge on the Atreides is how he conceals it from Shaddam (until he tells Feyd, against Piter's advice).

Shaddam of course would see this as an opportunity to get rid of the Duke and indebt the Harkonnen, but as you said, he had no idea of how much wealth the Baron had ripped from Arrakis.

I'll find the right quotes when I have more time, but I believe it does make sense for the Baron to cripple himself, it's a gamble, an all-in move for a bigger prize.

I don't think Piter was more than a tool of the Baron, he was way too much a slave of his vices for that.
(Hawat, on the other hand, being the perfect Mentat, was able to outwit the Baron for a while)

I'll have to double check on the Baron's finances too, I seem to remember Hawat did hit him hard, but maybe not hard enough, not sure about that though.

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Last edited by lotek on 14 Oct 2013 06:47, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby inhuien » 14 Oct 2013 04:44

lotek wrote:I'll have to double check on the Baron's finances too, I seem to remember Hawat did hit him hard, but maybe not hard enough, not sure about that though.
I'm not following this teckyboy, must by time for a re-read. :) :) :)
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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby Serkanner » 14 Oct 2013 06:00

inhuien wrote:
lotek wrote:I'll have to double check on the Baron's finances too, I seem to remember Hawat did hit him hard, but maybe not hard enough, not sure about that though.
I'm not following this teckyboy, must by time for a re-read. :) :) :)


The Areides executed a raid on Giede Prime around the time of the move to Arrakis.
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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby lotek » 14 Oct 2013 06:52

It's always time for a reread though :)
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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby Freakzilla » 14 Oct 2013 08:24

Insufferable, the Baron thought. Now, the Emperor will know how I slipped
up. He'll recognize it as a sign of weakness.
And it was agonizing to realize that the Emperor and his Sardaukar were
alike in their disdain for weakness. The Baron chewed at his lower lip,
consoling himself that the Emperor, at least, had not learned of the Atreides
raid on Giedi Prime, the destruction of the Harkonnen spice stores there.
Damn that slippery Duke!

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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby lotek » 14 Oct 2013 08:51

Thanks Freak.
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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby beigewyng » 15 May 2014 20:52

Feyd wasn't intended to be the KH although if he were not a Harkonnen who would have had nothing to do with Bene Gesserit teachings, he may have been able to become the one. I think that the Bene Gesserit overestimated how much Harkonnen blood they needed in their KH. But they were trying to preserve the traits of both bloodlines in the event that house Atreides was lost. They wanted their women to breed only daughters to the noble houses because they were trying to bring about the KH and a new world order in which he ruled the universe and the feudal system and emperor was destroyed. Because with no male heirs, the houses would collapse. That is why Lady Anirul had only daughters for the emperor and made him sterile so he couldn't have a son. But the Bene Gesserit recognizes the good traits in house Harkonnen and Atreides and wanted to preserve them. By the way, isn't it ironic that the Baron believed that one day a Harkonnen would be emperor, and then it turns out to be the son of his arch-nemesis? :lol:

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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby Serkanner » 16 May 2014 06:37

beigewyng wrote: By the way, isn't it ironic that the Baron believed that one day a Harkonnen would be emperor, and then it turns out to be the son of his arch-nemesis? :lol:


Paul was also (part) Harkonnen. The Baron therefore was right :wink:
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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby georgiedenbro » 24 Sep 2014 15:45

I don't think the BG would have missed the genetic possibility of Feyd being a KH. No one even bothered training him for that possibility, which seems to suggest there was none. That Jessica sired the KH a generation early seems to suggest that the X-factor needed in addition to the Baron's genes was the genes of Jessica and Leto. Paul was the KH, with no input from Abulurd's DNA at all, and so we can conclude that the Baron's DNA was the more important of the two between the brothers. Feyd, who was Abulurd's son, would have been lacking the necessary material from the Baron's genes, and obviously that of the Atreides. Feyd also had no noble blood in him, and in the Duniverse this means more than receiving education in good manners.

Consider also that the KH was to be the one who had access to both male and female OM. Might it be fair to look at Paul and Feyd's characters in light of this? Paul can easily be described as having a very definite feminine side to his personality and even body type, and this could have been necessary in order for him to be able to commune with his female ancestors. Recall that Paul described himself as being both the giver and the taker, which we assume was a property unique to him among humans. Feyd, by contrast, seems entirely to be a taker, in the book's parlance. I suspect that the KH had to be both a giver and a taker to be able to access both sides of OM after surviving the agony.

Feyd's sub-optimal mental characteristics can probably be ascribed to his education as both the Fenrings and Paul indicate. We can see he is a perfect physical specimen, but he is lacking noble blood and a feminine side. Notice how the Harkonnen stronghold is populated entirely by men and we never hear anything about the mothers, the wives, anything? Just slave girls. Feyd is brought up in a completely male-dominated environment. Contrast with Paul, who is brought up largely by men, but with a huge influence by Jessica. And as soon as Paul comes of age (more or less) all the male role models are stripped from his life and he's left with only a female mentor, his mother. The scenes on Arrakis before the fall of House Atreides seem largely to be occupied by Jessica, indicating to us, I think, that her role in Paul's life was larger than we might have expected from a boy brought up by a great Duke, swordmasters and a mentat. I think that even Paul didn't realize the extent to which Jessica and the Sisterhood were the major factors in him being who he was, and once he did realize it he resented it. But all the same it's what made him the KH.
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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby pcqypcqy » 13 Jun 2018 20:43

I agree that there's little evidence to suggest Feyd was a potential KH. I think the line where Paul's interior monologue states that he has seen himself dead in many visions (but never the killer) is well enough explained by the potential killer being Fenring. I agree this was a little suggestive that it could have meant Feyd, but there's no other evidence in this regard. Feyd was simply genetic material, and must have had other qualities the BG required.

On the Baron's grand plan, I think an important part of it was ensaring / encriminating the emperor by getting him involved. I agree that it was a decisive move to attack in such strength, and use most of his funds to do it - an all in move someone described it as. This provides the opportunity later on (when the Baron talks to Fenring on Geidi Prime) for scenarios to develop where the emperor has to move against the Baron, and for the Baron to then win the support of the Landsraad against the emperor.

"The Emperor does wish to audit your books," the Count said.
"Any time."
"You . . . ah . . . have no objections?"
"None. My CHOAM Company directorship will bear the closest scrutiny." And he
thought: Let him bring a false accusation against me and have it exposed. I
shall stand there, Promethean, saying: "Behold me, I am wronged. " Then let him
bring any other accusation against me, even a true one. The Great Houses will
not believe a second attack from an accuser once proved wrong.
"No doubt your books will bear the closest scrutiny," the Count muttered.


"When I see such an order above the Imperial seal I'll obey it," the Baron
said. "But I'll not submit to your whim."
"You think it whim?"
"What else can it be? The Emperor has obligations to me, too, Fenring. I rid
him of the troublesome Duke."
"With the help of a few Sardaukar."
"Where else would the Emperor have found a House to provide the disguising
uniforms to hide his hand in this matter?"
"He has asked himself the same question, Baron, but with a slightly
different emphasis."
The Baron studied Fenring, noting the stiffness of jaw muscles, the careful
control. "Ah-h-h, now," the Baron said. "I hope the Emperor doesn't believe he
can move against me in total secrecy."
"He hopes it won't become necessary."
"The Emperor cannot believe I threaten him!" The Baron permitted anger and
grief to edge his voice, thinking: Let him wrong me in that! I could place
myself on the throne while still beating my breast over how I'd been wronged.
The Count's voice went dry and remote as he said: "The Emperor believes what
his senses tell him."
"Dare the Emperor charge me with treason before a full Landsraad Council?"
And the Baron held his breath with the hope of it.
"The Emperor need dare nothing."
The Baron whirled away in his suspensors to hide his expression. It could
happen in my lifetime! he thought. Emperor! Let him wrong me! Then--the bribes
and coercion, the rallying of the Great Houses: they'd flock to my banner like
peasants running for shelter. The thing they fear above all else is the
Emperor's Sardaukar loosed upon them one House at a time.
"It's the Emperor's sincere hope he'll never have to charge you with
treason," the Count said.
The Baron found it difficult to keep irony out of his voice and permit only
the expression of hurt, but he managed. "I've been a most loyal subject. These
words hurt me beyond my capacity to express."

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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby Freakzilla » 15 Jun 2018 19:50

pcqypcqy wrote:Feyd was simply genetic material
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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby Naib » 16 Jun 2018 11:50

Jessica was supposed to have a girl to marry a Harkonnen heir in order to set up some dominate genes. I don't recall Feyd ever being confirmed as that heir. Also, I don't call any reference to either Rabban or Feyd being part of the breeding program (although they could have been I guess).

At the time Lady Fenring seduced Feyd I think the BG were simply trying to save part of their program by reintroducing Harkonnen genes as Paul was supposed to die. They could never seduce the Baron at this point.

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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby distrans » 16 Jun 2018 22:48

doesn't feyd's absence in pauls visions indicate that he's prescient?

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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby Serkanner » 17 Jun 2018 02:56

distrans wrote:doesn't feyd's absence in pauls visions indicate that he's prescient?


Where does it say Feyd was absent from Paul's vision?
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Re: Feyd-Rautha a Potential KH?

Postby Freakzilla » 17 Jun 2018 10:07

There was a "nexus" around Paul's fight with Feyd, I believe he new it was going to happen but didn't know the outcome.
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