The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

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The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby jardindegivre » 29 Oct 2020 00:57

Warning: This might appears obvious to most of this forum's readers, but it just took me thirty years to realize it!

Perhaps I have been rendered dumb by the bad storytelling of Hollywood and a lot of pop literature, but it took me a quick reading of Dr. Yueh (Original Dune Content, not the Expanded s..t) on the Dune wiki to realize, yet again, how Frank Herbert is a master of subtle characterization. Of course, during most of my life, and my three readings of the cycle I just thought Piter had simply used Wanna to mess with his mind. But no!! This is much too easy! What a fool have I been!

A recurring theme in the Dune cycle is the layer upon layer of thought processes and meanings which bring about important actions. And Suk conditioning certainly prevented such obvious blackmailing techniques in its curriculum. So Piter had to delve deeper in Yueh's psyche. Wanna had to be used to built, within Yueh's mind, a necessity to murder someone. And it had to be the Baron. Probably everyone here had realize it, but I find this plot point particularly twisted and interesting. Once Yueh was convinced that he had to kill the Baron somehow, the door was open in his mind to allow others to die, namely the Duke. In order to do that, a third layer of meaning had to be encrypted in his mind : the whole scheme of the Emperor. Piter had to convince Yueh that the Duke was about to die anyway, as to alleviate the guilt or whatever emotions which the Suk conditioning would bring about toward the thought of inflicting death.

Yueh tells the Duke : "I wish to kill a man. Yes, I actually wish it. I will stop at nothing to do it." He then reveals that this man is the Baron, and quickly add that "You were dead anyway, my poor Duke..." After that, he specifies that the Baron somehow let him hope Wanna is still alive. "When I see him, I'll know," he says. This indicate that Piter probably hid from the Baron the way he broke the conditioning - anyway, the Baron was just interested in result. He is intelligent, but he does not wish to interfere with the people he uses as tool, as we see his "phantom" mentally use poor Alia in CHILDREN.

This kind of layered psychology plays a relatively small role in the first Dune novel, but will become the focus of both HERETICS and CHAPTERHOUSE, as it is shown to be usual business for the Bene Gesserit.

This is a report of my recent illumination concerning Dr. Yueh and his role in the first novel.

'Til next time!

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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby georgiedenbro » 29 Oct 2020 09:56

Excellent report!

I always took it for granted that Yueh hated the Baron, and also had his mind broken about Wanna. Your suggestion that the issue about Wanna was secondary and that the hatred for the Baron was primary is interesting. At first glance I had thought that the hatred for the Baron originated from the fact that he was holding and torturing Wanna. At second glance I'm not so sure that's wrong, but what I think your idea adds for me is that perhaps Piter was on the one hand advising the Baron to capture and torture Wanna, while on the other hand "defecting" to Yueh, telling him that this madman the Baron had to die, after all look what he's doing to your poor Wanna. No doubt this message would be accompanied by detailed vids showing her torture. So it does seem likely that the wheels within wheels here is as follows:

Piter wants to control the Barony, though Feyd, whom he has been grooming to be his puppet. Meanwhile, Piter gives the Baron something he never thought he'd get: a chance to kill Leto for sure. To do this he has to evacuate Dune temporarily, but then come back to wipe out the Atreides. Meanwhile Yueh would kill the Baron, elevating Feyd, and thus giving Piter full control. So Piter will have engineered the mechanism of the overthrown of the Atreides, even though I still think it was fundamentally a BG plot. I doubt the BG would have cared who was controlling Feyd at that point, although I suppose they'd have assumed they could control him themselves if they chose to do so.

Also don't forget that Wanna was a BG, who I assume had a stronger than normal bond to Yueh. I've speculated before that maybe the reason Yueh's Imperial conditioning could be broken was because a BG imprinting is even stronger. Assuming he was a sort of slave to Wanna (which the BG themselves would use at a time of their choosing), it would make sense that in distress he would stop at nothing to save her and kill the one responsible for taking her. In fact now that I think about it, maybe the BG had her in place and themselves suggested to Piter that she could be a lever with which to break Yueh's Imperial conditioning.
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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby jardindegivre » 29 Oct 2020 17:42

Oh! That's grand!!!

Of course the BG would use Wanna in their own little scheme, which would include Piter and the Emperor's own plans. Dear georgiedenbro, you have just given some new secondary plot points to notice and study during my next reading of the novel!! Your analysis brings a new understanding of the reason why the BG wishes to punish Jessica and let the duke die.

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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby Ziggy » 30 Oct 2020 10:45

Some interesting points but I can't see how it was fundamentally a BG plot to destroy the Atreides. The BG had much time (ninety generations) invested in the end product of both bloodlines. Why risk the breeding program now, especially given how close they were? In fact, Mohiam says:

"And his desires don't figure in this. An Atreides daughter could've been wed to a Harkonnen heir and sealed the breach. You've hopelessly complicated Matters. We may lose both bloodlines now."

Far from accelerating the vendetta, it would appear their long term goal was to end it and establish control over Feyd and Jessica's daughters' child, their Kwizatz Haderach. Of course Jessica disobeyed and we know the result!

I also think that it was principally the Emperor's scheme to destroy House Atreides and subsequently enlisted the Harkonnens for the dirty deed. At which point the Baron / Piter would have drafted their nefarious plot.

Something mentioned above though, that has never occurred to me in all my re-reading of Dune, was the suggestion that Yueh's condition was broken precisely because there may have been an usually strong bond (or even imprint) with Wanna. This does make sense because it was a plot line that I had always though slightly shaky. My reasoning being that the Suk School should have considered such an eventuality and taken account of this in the conditioning process. Perhaps they simply didn't factor BG bonding / imprinting, if they were even aware of it at all. With these books there is always new food for thought. Hmmm ... :wink:

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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby georgiedenbro » 02 Nov 2020 10:46

Ziggy wrote:Some interesting points but I can't see how it was fundamentally a BG plot to destroy the Atreides. The BG had much time (ninety generations) invested in the end product of both bloodlines. Why risk the breeding program now, especially given how close they were? In fact, Mohiam says:

"And his desires don't figure in this. An Atreides daughter could've been wed to a Harkonnen heir and sealed the breach. You've hopelessly complicated Matters. We may lose both bloodlines now."

Far from accelerating the vendetta, it would appear their long term goal was to end it and establish control over Feyd and Jessica's daughters' child, their Kwizatz Haderach.


That was then. Once Paul was born and Jessica went rogue, there seemed to be no pretensions any more of having any hope for him. He was clearly not on their team, but all the same they weren't about to let an almost-KH run around loose and mess up their bloodline. And it may have been to punish Jessica as well. The fact that Mohiam visits Caladan at all is apparently not for official reasons since her test is successful and yet the plot against the Atreides continued anyhow. It changed nothing, so I believe she went only out of her own personal curiosity.

I also think that it was principally the Emperor's scheme to destroy House Atreides and subsequently enlisted the Harkonnens for the dirty deed. At which point the Baron / Piter would have drafted their nefarious plot.


The Emperor is described as a guy who is weary of battle, has lost his edge, has allowed the Sardaukar to go soft, and is more interested in court intrigue than conquest. I very much doubt on a character level it would be logical for him to be plotting grand schemes that are incredibly risky. Why do anything risky, when your empery is secure, and the downside is your overthrow if the Landsraad finds out? And additionally, I do not believe even the Emperor would be able to pull off something like this if the BG weren't at minimum ok with it. If they really did want to preserve the Atreides family tree then they could have done all number of things to make Shaddam's plan fail, or to blackmail him outright which would have been easy enough to do.

As a piece of side evidence of the BG's subtle presence throughout this backstory, see Fenring and Margot when they go to Giedi Prime, officially there on behalf of the Emperor, but in reality they are there to scout Feyd's potential and to secure his genetic material. Probably also to secure his adherence to Margot if it came to that. This has BG written all over it, and had they wished to do something similar with Paul they no doubt could have (or rather they'd have thought they could have).
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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby jardindegivre » 03 Nov 2020 03:54

Strangely enough, Mohiam's visite to Caladan seems to have been done with the intent to kill the pseudo-KH, but the latter's success with the Box test seem to have secure, at least in Mohiam's view, his survival and potential genetic material. I believe this is why Mohiam allow Paul to be saved while the rest of his house is left to be destroyed according to the Baron and the Emperor's plans.

I remember the Emperor's leaning on letting Fenring do the dirty work, as he himself is weary of intrigue, but he seems to fear the Duke enough to allow the Harkonnen to do as they wish. As such, it is easy for the BG to do as they please since the Emperor wishes a quick and easy way to rid himself of Leto. What has brought up the Emperor's weariness is the fact that he is clearly the Guild's puppet and his power is absurdly limited. Paul's reign becomes indeed the first in 10 000 years to have real power over the other factions in galactic politics, which turns sour in the next book as he is unable to prevent the terrible jihad.

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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Nov 2020 09:32

According to Jessica's report on BG motives and purposes, they were in on it, just bungled it. I've always thought this was all about the BG wanting Paul dead. Mohiam was obviously not happy about Paul showing signs of being the KH. I think she went to Caladan to confirm that they were doing the right thing.
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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby georgiedenbro » 03 Nov 2020 11:03

jardindegivre wrote:I believe this is why Mohiam allow Paul to be saved while the rest of his house is left to be destroyed according to the Baron and the Emperor's plans.


The only problem with this idea is that based on what Mohiam does (or doesn't do), no steps are taken to actually save Paul. In fact the only 'help' any BG gives the Atreides at all is Margot's message in the garden, which IMO is actually destructive to their defensive efforts. More likely that message was intended to destabilize the Atreides, since the blame would most likely fall on Jessica. The one person in the book who is the lynchpin of the success of both sides is Yueh. He essentially engineers the downfall of the Atreides and the Harkonnens, while at the same time arranging to save Paul and Jessica. If not for him they would have died for sure (or worse). The BG did nothing about it, so I assume the result of Mohiam's test was ineffectual in changing their plans. It's for this reason that I tend to believe she went there of her own volition, just to know for herself; otherwise why send her if the result will be the same either way?
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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby Naib » 03 Nov 2020 11:59

I always thought Mohaim came at Jessica's request. She wanted to prove to the BG that Paul and by extension, Leto, were worth saving. Clearly Paul was or she wouldn't have instructed Jessica to teach Paul the Voice. Leto, on the other hand, had already been judged and was left to his own fate.

Allowing Paul to live at this point doesn't mean the BG expected him to live long. They probably wanted him to try becoming the KH to see how close they were coming. They probably expected Paul to die when he tasted the Water of Life.

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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby georgiedenbro » 03 Nov 2020 12:20

I am actually tempted to say that in his various reworkings of the text, an inconsistency may have crept in on the topic of the BG's intentions towards Paul. On the one hand we have them doing absolutely nothing to help him, and on the other hand Mohiam's line "for the father, nothing." The line suggests they will do something for Paul...except they don't. My best guess is the "for the father, nothing" line came from an earlier version and was left in despite other plotting changes; this is maybe similar to the Yueh/Paul scene where it's intimated that Spice was discovered super-recently (like a mere 100 years prior) even though all other traces of that backstory detail were scrubbed from the rest of the book.
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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby Serkanner » 04 Nov 2020 06:06

jardindegivre wrote:Strangely enough, Mohiam's visite to Caladan seems to have been done with the intent to kill the pseudo-KH, but the latter's success with the Box test seem to have secure, at least in Mohiam's view, his survival and potential genetic material. I believe this is why Mohiam allow Paul to be saved while the rest of his house is left to be destroyed according to the Baron and the Emperor's plans.

I remember the Emperor's leaning on letting Fenring do the dirty work, as he himself is weary of intrigue, but he seems to fear the Duke enough to allow the Harkonnen to do as they wish. As such, it is easy for the BG to do as they please since the Emperor wishes a quick and easy way to rid himself of Leto. What has brought up the Emperor's weariness is the fact that he is clearly the Guild's puppet and his power is absurdly limited. Paul's reign becomes indeed the first in 10 000 years to have real power over the other factions in galactic politics, which turns sour in the next book as he is unable to prevent the terrible jihad.


I don't think that the BG allowed Paul to survive that attack on Arrakis by the Harkonnen and Sardaukar.
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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby jardindegivre » 04 Nov 2020 23:43

You're right, my choice of word was bad. I meant that Mohiam pushed Jessica to teach Paul the Voice and the weirding way, which helped him survive the Harkonnen attack and, indirectly, his acceptance by the fremen. Of course, I believe Jessica would have teach him anyway.

Sorry! My bad!!!

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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby Serkanner » 05 Nov 2020 07:13

jardindegivre wrote:You're right, my choice of word was bad. I meant that Mohiam pushed Jessica to teach Paul the Voice and the weirding way, which helped him survive the Harkonnen attack and, indirectly, his acceptance by the Fremen. Of course, I believe Jessica would have teach him anyway.

Sorry! My bad!!!


No need to apologize. On the contrary!

It is an interesting choice of words. It is useful to examine whether the BG did or did not used levers which helped Jessica and Paul to survive the assault on Arrakis. If we can find enough clues in the text to answer that question it helps us understanding the motives of the different factions and characters.

I agree with Georgie the answer here is that Mohiam did see the potential of Paul but also that the BG would not directly intervene to safe Paul. Indirectly however the BG did plant the Missionaria Protectiva on Arrakis among the Fremen population. There was an escape route for Jessica and Paul if she chose to make use of it. Eventually she did after the assault of course. The BG didn't intervene directly to help J&P to escape the Harkonnen.

But... Margot Fenring did leave the message about a traitor:

Your son and Duke are in immediate danger. A bedroom has been designed to attract your son. The H loaded it with death traps to be discovered, leaving one that may escape detection. I do not know the exact nature of the menace, but it has something to do with a bed. The threat to your Duke involves defection of a trusted companion or lieutenant. The H plan to give you as gift to a minion. To the best of my knowledge, this conservatory is safe. Forgive that I cannot tell more. My sources are few as my Count is not in the pay of the H. In haste, MF

This message helped Jessica, but only a small bit. Now she knew there would be an attempt on Paul's life directly and there was a traitor among the people the Atreides trusted. However, Margot's message also caused confusion which actually might have had worse consequences for J&P; fortunately Yueh created the one escape route. Also she already knew what would happen when they moved to Arrakis because that is what the book started with.

Now, Mohiam didn't kill Paul straight-out with the Gom Jabbar (she even says she must have wanted him to fail after Paul endured more pain a woman would have to during the test). Jessica did receive a warning. To me that is not enough to conclude the BG allowed Paul to survive. I actually think they allowed the assault to go on even when they probably had enough leverage on the Emperor to stop it if they so wanted. Obviously they didn't stop the assault and I think, because they didn't believe Paul was the KH, accepted losing the Atreides bloodline and placed their bets on Feyd-Rautha and the Harkonnen bloodline.

A question for which I have never found an answer is why Jessica didn't produce a daughter shortly after Paul was born. Paul is 15 and only now Jessica is pregnant with Alia. What stopped her from conceiving much earlier and give the BG the Atreides daughter they wanted/needed?

While writing this post I took the book and leafing through the first few chapters to find the hints we are discussing. During the talk between Jessica and Mohiam about Jessica's choice to have Paul instead of Pauline, Mohiam scolds Jessica for making this choice and tells her she might not be so proud anymore when she and Paul are fugitives on a foreign planet.

"How noble," the Reverend Mother sneered. "No regret. We shall see when you're a fugitive with a price on your head and every man's hand turned against you to seek your life and the life of your son."

Jessica paled. "Is there no alternative?"
"Alternative? A Bene Gesserit should ask that?"
"I ask only what you see in the future with your superiour abilities."


Are these abilities prescience or was it a mentat projection, or something else? That something else could also be what is hinted at in appendix III where is said: In the face of these facts, one is led to the inescapble conclusion that the inefficient Bene Gesserit behaviour in this affair was a product of an even higher plan of which they were completely unaware.

I have always thought this pointed towards Paul taking over power of the Known Universe, but "a higher plan of which they were completely unaware," I now think means something else. I now wonder what that higher plan, of which they were unaware, might be and whose plan was it.

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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby georgiedenbro » 05 Nov 2020 11:04

Serkanner wrote:This message helped Jessica, but only a small bit. Now she knew there would be an attempt on Paul's life directly and there was a traitor among the people the Atreides trusted.


One thing I just thought of which I've never considered before is Hasimir's presence in all this. Margot 'helps' Jessica here (let's say for now it really was to help), and of course we can wonder whether it was the BG who offered it through her, or Mohiam who personally asked for a favor, perhaps in defiance herself of the BG general policy here. But a third option which just occurred to me is that Fenring himself might have suggested Margot leave a note, due to what we learn only at the end about him having personal sympathy with another almost-KH.

I actually think they allowed the assault to go on even when they probably had enough leverage on the Emperor to stop it if they so wanted. Obviously they didn't stop the assault and I think, because they didn't believe Paul was the KH, accepted losing the Atreides bloodline and placed their bets on Feyd-Rautha and the Harkonnen bloodline.


That, and I suspect as has been mentioned before, there is a streak of punishing disobedience in the BG that may at times supersede immediate strategy.

A question for which I have never found an answer is why Jessica didn't produce a daughter shortly after Paul was born. Paul is 15 and only now Jessica is pregnant with Alia. What stopped her from conceiving much earlier and give the BG the Atreides daughter they wanted/needed?


Good question! Here are a couple of ideas I have about why this may be:

1) Jessica seems to have gone rogue, not just in fact but in her heart as well. Maybe once she had Paul she really did want to distance herself from the BG's edicts, thinking of herself (in a sort of vain conceit) as an Atreides now rather than a BG agent. Going back and having a daughter after would sort of be like crawling back to them, which maybe she wouldn't do if she was entertaining the fantasy of having left them. In CoD (I think) it's mentioned how Jessica went back to them, sort of implying that she really had left for a time.

2) The BG plan had many elements, one of which was to unite the Harkonnen and Atreides lines in both genetics and through marriage. Once she loved Leto and knew more about the Atreides/Harkonnen situation, she may have finally decided it was anathema to allow a union through marriage with those beasts. If that's so, she would have no purpose to have a daughter, other than (I suppose) to just have another baby.

3) Maybe Jessica's pride was so great that she really did believe Paul would be the KH, and she didn't want to backpedal on her prideful defiance and hedge on the BG's version of the genetic plan being a backup. Mohiam herself seems to chide Jessica for her presumption that her own son could be the KH, so if we're going to take Mohiam's intuition for it, we might well assume that Jessica wouldn't have a daughter because in her mind one wasn't needed, she had already produced the KH. In fact I could go further with this - assuming she thought Paul was the KH, that still wouldn't invalidate the BG's breeding plan, so if she had a daughter, and let's say that daughter did mate with Feyd, there might be a competing KH coming up after Paul, which perhaps Jessica would have wanted to prevent.

"I ask only what you see in the future with your superiour abilities."[/i]

Are these abilities prescience or was it a mentat projection, or something else? That something else could also be what is hinted at in appendix III where is said: In the face of these facts, one is led to the inescapble conclusion that the inefficient Bene Gesserit behaviour in this affair was a product of an even higher plan of which they were completely unaware.

I have always thought this pointed towards Paul taking over power of the Known Universe, but "a higher plan of which they were completely unaware," I now think means something else. I now wonder what that higher plan, of which they were unaware, might be and whose plan was it.


This is one of those things from the first book, along with Alia appearing in Mohiam's OM, that stick out and make us wonder whether we're missing some major piece of the puzzle. One thing I wonder about is whether the power of the oracle, or perhaps whatever Duncan or M&D are in CH:D, can not only predict (i.e. shape) the future, but also...shape the past? One minor detail about spatial teleportation is that strictly speaking teleporting across space is effectively time travel, since you have exceeded the speed of light. And even KH's like Paul and Leto II can detect far-away events instantaneously, breaking the laws of relativity in data transmission. So obviously there is something about human capabilities that breaks through what we think of as the time barrier. So maybe it is possible that future persons can affect and create retroactive causality? In Star Trek terms it might be something like a temporal causality loop (in scientific terminology, a closed timelike curve).
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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby Naib » 05 Nov 2020 13:44

georgiedenbro wrote:
Serkanner wrote:This message helped Jessica, but only a small bit. Now she knew there would be an attempt on Paul's life directly and there was a traitor among the people the Atreides trusted.


One thing I just thought of which I've never considered before is Hasimir's presence in all this. Margot 'helps' Jessica here (let's say for now it really was to help), and of course we can wonder whether it was the BG who offered it through her, or Mohiam who personally asked for a favor, perhaps in defiance herself of the BG general policy here. But a third option which just occurred to me is that Fenring himself might have suggested Margot leave a note, due to what we learn only at the end about him having personal sympathy with another almost-KH.

I actually think they allowed the assault to go on even when they probably had enough leverage on the Emperor to stop it if they so wanted. Obviously they didn't stop the assault and I think, because they didn't believe Paul was the KH, accepted losing the Atreides bloodline and placed their bets on Feyd-Rautha and the Harkonnen bloodline.


That, and I suspect as has been mentioned before, there is a streak of punishing disobedience in the BG that may at times supersede immediate strategy.

A question for which I have never found an answer is why Jessica didn't produce a daughter shortly after Paul was born. Paul is 15 and only now Jessica is pregnant with Alia. What stopped her from conceiving much earlier and give the BG the Atreides daughter they wanted/needed?


Good question! Here are a couple of ideas I have about why this may be:

1) Jessica seems to have gone rogue, not just in fact but in her heart as well. Maybe once she had Paul she really did want to distance herself from the BG's edicts, thinking of herself (in a sort of vain conceit) as an Atreides now rather than a BG agent. Going back and having a daughter after would sort of be like crawling back to them, which maybe she wouldn't do if she was entertaining the fantasy of having left them. In CoD (I think) it's mentioned how Jessica went back to them, sort of implying that she really had left for a time.

2) The BG plan had many elements, one of which was to unite the Harkonnen and Atreides lines in both genetics and through marriage. Once she loved Leto and knew more about the Atreides/Harkonnen situation, she may have finally decided it was anathema to allow a union through marriage with those beasts. If that's so, she would have no purpose to have a daughter, other than (I suppose) to just have another baby.

3) Maybe Jessica's pride was so great that she really did believe Paul would be the KH, and she didn't want to backpedal on her prideful defiance and hedge on the BG's version of the genetic plan being a backup. Mohiam herself seems to chide Jessica for her presumption that her own son could be the KH, so if we're going to take Mohiam's intuition for it, we might well assume that Jessica wouldn't have a daughter because in her mind one wasn't needed, she had already produced the KH. In fact I could go further with this - assuming she thought Paul was the KH, that still wouldn't invalidate the BG's breeding plan, so if she had a daughter, and let's say that daughter did mate with Feyd, there might be a competing KH coming up after Paul, which perhaps Jessica would have wanted to prevent.

Maybe this is too simplistic an idea, but perhaps Leto didn't want another child just yet. He had Paul and therefore an heir. Perhaps he was taking/using a contraceptive to prevent any further children and only changed his mind once he was given Arrakis. He clearly suspected a plot against him and thought that it was time to have another child to ensure his line.

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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby jardindegivre » 06 Nov 2020 03:30

Two things :

The first, has nothing to do with Canon Dune - In the Lynch film, there is a cut scene where Jessica tells Leto she promised him a daughter at a moment of parting, which is during their last night on Caladan. As Frank Herbert was enthusiastic with Lynch's script, before the producer made the film a mess, I believe he supported this story point.

Secondly, concerning the "higher plan", this is really, really an interesting assertion, especially coming diegetically from Jessica's agents. I rediscovered it by reading again the appendix the other night. Now I see two possibilities. Either the author is a believer of Paul's religion and despite knowledge about the Missionaria Protectiva and other BG tricks, believe that somehow God is manifesting itself through the events of the books,
...or there is something orchestrating events in reality somewhere in those high order dimensions!!!! (which Frank Herbert unfortunately took to the grave with him... :cry: )

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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Nov 2020 01:21

Mohiam went to Caladan to set Paul up for death.
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Re: The breaking of Yueh's conditioning

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Nov 2020 01:42

Just my opinion, your observations before my post are WHY I created this forum. Bless you
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Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman