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    So someone enlighten this newbie...

    Postby mulletsavant » 11 Dec 2008 11:35

    ...as to why the new books by Brian Herbert are blasphemy??

    I have zero opinion on the subject as I'm still reading the first half of the orginal book by Frank. Just curious as to why there is such a strong backlash?

    Flame away!!!
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    Postby Drunken Idaho » 11 Dec 2008 11:42

    Poor writing, chiefly.

    People liked Dune for Frank's beautiful prose. He just had a way with words. Not only is this absent in the new books, but much of the time, the writing is downright BAD.

    Secondly, the new authors seem to be pumping out books way too fast, which leads one to believe that they are in it for the money. They're piggy-packing on Frank's cash cow.

    Bad writing + shady motives = blasphemy
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    Postby SandRider » 11 Dec 2008 11:43

    I just used up all the energy I'll have today roasting Fantomas over at House Atreides, so I'll be brief. First off, I don't think Brian had much of a hand in the new books except poor editing and signing HLP checks. Second, read this board. Pages and Pages of indictments. But maybe someone can drop by here and leave a succint recap. I wouldn't know quite where to begin, and anyway, I'm shutting down now and hitting the morphine drip button again.

    Ahhhhhh. :D
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    Postby mulletsavant » 11 Dec 2008 11:51

    Also, I heard the new writers claim that the new books are partially based upon some of Frank's notes? false?
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    Postby Drunken Idaho » 11 Dec 2008 12:01

    mulletsavant wrote:Also, I heard the new writers claim that the new books are partially based upon some of Frank's notes? false?


    That's what they say, but I find it highly un-believable. Even if there were notes, it seems like they've been disregarded damned near completely.
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    Postby mulletsavant » 11 Dec 2008 12:05

    Baraka Bryan wrote:
    mulletsavant wrote:Also, I heard the new writers claim that the new books are partially based upon some of Frank's notes? false?


    in some other thread the notes stories are discussed. in various interviews depending on the context of the question, the the hack and bribri have given various stories about how and where notes/outlines were found, the volume of those notes (from 2 pages to hundreds) the level of detail in the notes etc...

    I don't think anyone doubts that there were notes made and left behind by FH as all authors make rough notes for their stories, (except those who dictate perfect prose straight from the sphincter), but these douchebags have used the supposed notes to justify everything in their writing. whatever was in the notes, they twisted them to justify writing prequel trilogies that tie in to their version of Dune 7.

    even if FH jotted down "tranny pedophile robot" somewhere on a piece of paper doesn't mean he meant it to be a part of the story.


    edit to add response to your sig: A.G is "after guild." Dune years count from the formation of the guild, which is, if i remember correctly, about 13,000 years AD?


    Thanks for the info! I am aware of the AG/AD timeframe now. My sig is kind of a joke based on my first thread at Dune Novels, and catching some hell over here for not knowing my timelines yet. :) (damn me striaght to hell!!)
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    Postby Spicelon » 11 Dec 2008 12:47

    I think most OH'ers (Orthodox Herbertarians, i.e. those who only accept FH's
    books as part of the Duniverse...more on this later) could overlook
    sub-standard writing. Most, but certainly not all. For me, the real crime is
    their attitude regarding inconsistencies, their reasons for rationalizing the
    inconsistencies, and an extreme distrust on my part for their motives in
    continuing this "franchise".

    My macro view is that the question/concern of BH and KJA diluting or ruining
    FH's legacy and standard of excellence is a very real and valid concern. I
    personally think the erosion of FH's legacy is real and measurable, and that
    pisses me off.

    NOTE: um, what would be the best definition of an OHer? I'm pretty sure I
    am one, just want to know what to put on my epitaph. :)
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    Re: So someone enlighten this newbie...

    Postby Frybread » 11 Dec 2008 13:01

    mulletsavant wrote:...as to why the new books by Brian Herbert are blasphemy??

    I have zero opinion on the subject as I'm still reading the first half of the orginal book by Frank. Just curious as to why there is such a strong backlash?

    Flame away!!!


    Apart from the terrible writing (which includes the over use of adverbs and adjectives), I mostly hate the inconsistencies and the Hack's lame attempts to justify them by saying the original Dune books are "in-universe" texts. Doing so is the Hack's way of justifying his many inconsistencies and mistakes that are a result of his and The Other Guy's not having closely read the original six books.
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    Re: So someone enlighten this newbie...

    Postby TheDukester » 11 Dec 2008 13:25

    mulletsavant wrote:...as to why the new books by Brian Herbert are blasphemy??

    So ... many ... reasons.

    A lot of them eventually circle back to this, though: the nuDune books are a blatant money-grab, and are dangerously close to drowning a literary treasure in a sea of once-per-year mediocrity penned by an ass-bandit who truly believes that hiking is the same thing as writing.
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    Postby mulletsavant » 11 Dec 2008 13:26

    "in-universe" texts??? please explain.... :shock:
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    Postby mulletsavant » 11 Dec 2008 13:50

    Baraka Bryan wrote:
    mulletsavant wrote:"in-universe" texts??? please explain.... :shock:


    over the course of the past decade, many Dune fans, probably primarily those on this site, have been complaining online and through other media about the contradictions in the nu-dune books. These complaints have gone either unanswered, or have been told it's in the notes, or asked why we're complaining when obviously the authors know best, (actually that's just another non-answer).

    so in response to those complaints, kevvie has attempted to use the latest book to justify those inconsistencies and supposedly silence the critics. in Paul of Dune, (i'm not ashamed of spoiling things in this book because it shouldn't be written/read to begin with) they tell about a conversation between irulan and paul where paul tells her to write falsehoods in her stories of his life and that the readers will believe it if she writes it. they specifically talk about some of the more blatant contradictions that readers have pointed out. The way they've referenced those stories, Dune is now supposedly one of these in-universe writings by Irulan, and so subject to scrutiny as to its truthfulness. readers are supposed to take these new interquels as the definitive truth, while taking everything Frank Herbert wrote with a grain of salt.

    that is the greatest blasphemy of all.


    Wow!!! I must say that is pretty ball-sy!!!!!!! Especially considering the original Dune is considered by many THE definitive sci-fi masterpiece....

    So what do you think is the main motivation of Brian and the other guy?? (forgot his name) is it strictly $$$$ ? or to create a Star Wars type of franchise? trying for a mainstream feel for a possible movie/TV deal?
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    Postby Seraphan » 11 Dec 2008 14:14

    Seraphan wrote:
    dunaddict wrote:for those of you that did NOT read the prequels:
    - would you consider reading the prequels if there's proof the notes are real and used in the preqs?

    Like it was previously said, even if such notes existed the authors still failed to interpret them, this certainty is given through the fact of how they ignored/reversed Frank Herbert's ideas i.e. the scattering (of mankind's problem of depending on a specific natural resourse, giving away their decision making to charismatic leaders, along with other ideas). It is this total incomprehension of everything that Frank wrote and said that sets these authors as nothing but a pair of liars set on making money from exploring the stupidity of gullible people.
    It is, in my view, a crime against literacy and art commited by a hack writer that is incapable of even understanding, or recognizing, any thematical content in the Frankenstein novel by Mary Shelley.
    And still he continues to say that what he "does" is Dune while accusing fans of Frank of not understanding his novels. His arrogance and blatant cynicism are the manifestation of his wounded ego that searches to be recognized as some sort of artist. Fat chance :twisted:
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    On the New guy

    Postby Sole Man » 11 Dec 2008 15:54

    Hello mulletsavant. Don't read the Kevin books at all. And buy the Frank books at some used bookstore or another. Each one you buy gives more money to the HLP, and we don't want that, now do we?

    Soon all books production will come to a halt, and Brain and even The Hack himself will be forced to deal with us...
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    Postby DuneFishUK » 11 Dec 2008 17:34

    mulletsavant wrote:So what do you think is the main motivation of Brian and the other guy?? (forgot his name) is it strictly $$$$ ? or to create a Star Wars type of franchise? trying for a mainstream feel for a possible movie/TV deal?


    The new Dune movie only came about because Kevin and the other guy were trying to sell their prequels as a movie series. Dune is a franchise - not on the scale of star wars, but they think it could (and should) be.

    They talk it up as if they're doing a noble public service - "continuing the legacy" diligently collating FH's vast collection of notes and doing what he intended. What they are actually doing is putting out a profitable yearly pulp scifi annual that fails to capitalise on any of the reasons that made original Dune successful and popular.
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    Postby GamePlayer » 11 Dec 2008 18:07

    "I could give you reasons. Their incompetence. Their ignorance. It's forbidden to write novels so weak, so helpless, that cannot survive on their own."

    :P
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    Postby Seraphan » 11 Dec 2008 18:49

    GamePlayer wrote:"I could give you reasons. Their incompetence. Their ignorance. It's forbidden to write novels so weak, so helpless, that cannot survive on their own."

    :P

    That prase is pure magic.
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    Postby Nekhrun » 11 Dec 2008 19:39

    SandRider wrote:I just used up all the energy I'll have today roasting Fantomas over at House Atreides, so I'll be brief. First off, I don't think Brian had much of a hand in the new books except poor editing and signing HLP checks. Second, read this board. Pages and Pages of indictments. But maybe someone can drop by here and leave a succint recap. I wouldn't know quite where to begin, and anyway, I'm shutting down now and hitting the morphine drip button again.

    Ahhhhhh. :D

    I thought that place died. I can't believe that prick even bothers anymore. He's too stupid to realize how stupid he is.
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    Postby SandRider » 11 Dec 2008 21:11

    House Atreides is not dead, but abandoned. It appears it was the
    last known location of Hyppo, which scared everyone else off. By the
    time I got around to looking over there, it was just Omph and Chig
    yelling at Fantomas. Now it's just me yelling at Fantomas. It's working
    out well, since he won't come over here and I can't afford to burn up
    another sockpuppet Over There just telling him what a Great Hero
    Che Guevara was.
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    Postby Drunken Idaho » 11 Dec 2008 22:33

    Nekhrun wrote:
    SandRider wrote:I just used up all the energy I'll have today roasting Fantomas over at House Atreides, so I'll be brief. First off, I don't think Brian had much of a hand in the new books except poor editing and signing HLP checks. Second, read this board. Pages and Pages of indictments. But maybe someone can drop by here and leave a succint recap. I wouldn't know quite where to begin, and anyway, I'm shutting down now and hitting the morphine drip button again.

    Ahhhhhh. :D

    I thought that place died. I can't believe that prick even bothers anymore. He's too stupid to realize how stupid he is.


    House Atreides is the first Dune forum I ever posted at. Then I moved to DN, and thusly to this place. I hate that place's stupid logo. What is it, from a game or some shit? Totally NOT the Atreides hawk.

    DuneFishUK wrote:The new Dune movie only came about because Kevin and the other guy were trying to sell their prequels as a movie series. Dune is a franchise - not on the scale of star wars, but they think it could (and should) be.


    Where do you get that idea? I think it's faaaaar more likely that movie producers have a list of things that can be re-adapted, and Dune was simply next. Besides, didn't the mini-series guys own the film-rights?

    I still believe whole-heartedly that Berg won't make a gay sequel, prequel, or interquel until all of Frank's books have been adapted, which is pretty unlikely. Something tells me we won't see Heretics or Chapterhouse on celluloid... But I pray every night for a well-done God Emperor film...
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    Postby Lundse » 12 Dec 2008 08:42

    Bad writing I could live with - but it would have marked any new books as less than a fully serious attempt at continuing FH's legacy.

    Inconsistencies can be tolerated - to a degree, if it were small, honost mistakes or somehow enabled the writers to tell a better story (cf. Scytale). Not when eg. Paul's birthplace is changed merely to set a juvenile action romp off-planet.

    The main themes subverted I can never forgive. They change the Butlerian Jihad and it's meaning, re-interpret Leto II, turn Frank's opinions of 'heroes' upside down, etc. etc.

    The frosting on this turd of a cake is how they go abaout defending it. Calling all who criticize them 'talifan', or 'a few disgruntled fans' instead of answering critiques. And their total lack of humility - such as spelling out where FH 'must have lied' so that their story fits.


    As I have tried to hammer into the head of the fans of the new books, and Byron (so far, only Simon seems to get it) - something is not consistent with an original, if you have to change around that original for the consistency to prevail!
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    Postby SandChigger » 12 Dec 2008 10:19

    I seriously can't believe how many of you say that bad writing would have been acceptable if it weren't for the inconsistencies.

    I just don't get that at all.

    Interesting, creative extensions/developments of the storylines, consistent with what Frank wrote, expressed in well crafted language. Why is it too much to ask for all of that?
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    Postby Seraphan » 12 Dec 2008 10:57

    Drunken Idaho wrote:But I pray every night for a well-done God Emperor film...

    Hollywood doesnt have the testicles for it. Blade Runner being the great movie that it is was already hard enough for Ridley Scott to manage as he wanted it to be, the studio pushed that little happy ending that didnt fit the movie at all. Imagine what they'll do with GoED.
    SandChigger wrote:I seriously can't believe how many of you say that bad writing would have been acceptable if it weren't for the inconsistencies.

    I just don't get that at all.

    Interesting, creative extensions/developments of the storylines, consistent with what Frank wrote, expressed in well crafted language. Why is it too much to ask for all of that?

    It's not too much but simply being consistent with the originals and publishing the notes (if they exist) as an appendix would've earned them some merit and respect. If they were capable of writting an interesting, creative extension/developments of the storylines then that would've have been perfect, or near perfect.
    But, as we all know, their "my shit doesnt stink" attitude has earned them the well deserved ire of the community.
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    Postby GamePlayer » 12 Dec 2008 12:40

    Seraphan wrote:
    GamePlayer wrote:"I could give you reasons. Their incompetence. Their ignorance. It's forbidden to write novels so weak, so helpless, that cannot survive on their own."

    :P

    That prase is pure magic.


    Hopefully KJA and the other guy will continue providing the ammunition we need to fire off more of these :)
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    Postby Seraphan » 12 Dec 2008 13:01

    GamePlayer wrote:
    Seraphan wrote:
    GamePlayer wrote:"I could give you reasons. Their incompetence. Their ignorance. It's forbidden to write novels so weak, so helpless, that cannot survive on their own."

    :P

    That prase is pure magic.


    Hopefully KJA and the other guy will continue providing the ammunition we need to fire off more of these :)

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    Postby Omphalos » 12 Dec 2008 13:42

    SandChigger wrote:I seriously can't believe how many of you say that bad writing would have been acceptable if it weren't for the inconsistencies.

    I just don't get that at all.


    Amen. I have stayed out of this thread so far because there is no good answer to any of these questions. And that is not because there arent good reasons; its because there are too many things to name. These guys have managed to fuck it up on just about every single level. Ive read more than a few of the new books, and I honestly cant find anything redeeming about any of them. Simply put they are trash, and if they did not have the word "Dune" on them, they would have been stopped years ago.

    SandChigger wrote:Interesting, creative extensions/developments of the storylines, consistent with what Frank wrote, expressed in well crafted language. Why is it too much to ask for all of that?


    Yes it is. Because Brian Herbert is involved, and not only is he a shitty writer, but he exercised very poor judgment in selecting a writing partner, and the HLP has made a big mistake by not putting its foot down about this shit. BH's greatest contribution to literature was a fucking book about funny insurance claims. Humor arising from the pain of others. Ha ha ha. You know what? I actually think that FH only told BH that he was thinking about doing a Dune book with him because he knew he was dying and wanted to preserve the decent relationship that he had finally achieved with his son. He probably felt guilty about his life with Brian and Bruce, and figured that he only had so much time to make up for the past before he went on to his great reward. So he said it and BH glommed onto it like he was still a hotel maid with no future otherwise.
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