The Limits of Logic

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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby cmsahe » 25 Apr 2009 23:13

Quantum Computers make use of quantum mechanical processes, specially interference. The unbelievable aspect of this new technology is that it collaborates with (the quantum computer) its counterparts in parallel universes.

As the Interference experiments show, you project a single photon thru a plaque with two slits and it interferes with a ghost particle, a particle from a parallel universe. You can say, well it's due to the dual particle-wave quality of any subatomic particle, but when an interferometer that uses opaque mirrors it's used, this is the only and simplest explanation. What I wrote above it's quoted from : The Fabric of Reality, author: David Deutsch, printed by Allen Lane ISBN 0 7139 9061 9.

Now that Stephen Hawking is sick (in the Ghafla forum) someone mentioned having watched a documentary where physicists declared that Hawking is famous because of his wheelchair, it's not exactly that, he discovered that Black Holes radiate thermal energy and eventually evaporate, but there are physicists that have contributed more to the understanding of the Multiverse than Hawking, for instance Alan Guth, Inflationary Model, and this scientist David Deutsch has created an explanation of reality structured around: quantum theory, epistemology, evolution and computing science. And his theory explains that there is a Multiverse. I highly recommend reading this book, it's difficult to read, this explains the bad reviews given to it by ocassional readers on Amazon, but IMO he should be as important as Stephen Hawking.

loremaster wrote:My personal favourite from Frank was that "Logic may be fine for pyramid chess, but it's often too slow in real situations" (paraphrased from CH:D)

Also, to humour chigger and try to postulate about future computational ability and the current limits of technology, does anyone know about this idea of quantum computing? It's a sort of thought experiment whereby utilising quantum phenomena we could have computers which render redundant many of todays security and computing features. An example would be a padlock, with any length code, and any number of potential symbols per place, STILL has a definite number of combinations. Quantum computing is supposed to be able to bypass this sort of thing.

But i cant really explain it, its not my specialist subject.

Also, on that note, has anyone read about this before:

http://www.netscrap.com/netscrap_detail.cfm?scrap_id=73

You want to know where skynet begins? it's in a lab in london. It's kinda tangential but the fact it models the evolution of "fitter" units by random alterations from less fit predecessors suggests that computers could "consciously" evolve simply by introducing random changes to themselves over many generations. However, given the length of time to produce and test any one unit, a robotic "generation" could be hours, not years.
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby cmsahe » 25 Apr 2009 23:29

Schu wrote:First of all, Freak was talking about Paul and Leto II, characters in a fictional universe where you can predict the future, not the state of physics theory.

So what? Do I have forbidden to comment about physics? I commented on this because, after reading about this, Yoda came to my mind and I can't bear to watch that sequence in ESB: "Always in motion the future is.." Almost every thread on Jacurutu soon degenerates into unimportant things that were not the original topic, and I haven´t seen you nagging on them :Adolf: (that's you)
Schu wrote:And bullshit "the future is fixed and solid". Taking even the many-worlds interpretation that you have, the path through the multiverse *is* our future and that path changes as you've said, so our future changes - it is not solid (not to mention that the multiverse is not an undisputed model of quantum physics, the copenhagen interpretation in fact is more accepted by physicists so I hear). Also, that was the special theory of relativity, not general. (the general theory of relativity is a generalisation of that to include Newton's gravitation theories).

And yet again, you've missed the point there - relativistic effects can be predicted precisely, so if two observers can account for relativistic shifts, they will always measure the same event consistently. Probably what you're
Thank you for correcting me, as soon as I can I'll read on the copenhagen interpretation, and read again the episodes on General Relativity (special & general)in my Stephen Hawking books: A brief history of time, A briefer history of time and The Universe in a nutshell.
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby Schu » 25 Apr 2009 23:52

I'm all for wild tangents in conversations, but you were correcting Freakzilla ("No it isn't the future is fixed and solid as a rock") when he wasn't wrong. I'm glad I put you straight on the physics.

Also, have you heard of godwin's law? At least slow down on the hitler comparisons, make it last a little longer...

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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby cmsahe » 26 Apr 2009 01:28

Schu wrote:I'm all for wild tangents in conversations, but you were correcting Freakzilla ("No it isn't the future is fixed and solid as a rock") when he wasn't wrong. I'm glad I put you straight on the physics.

Also, have you heard of godwin's law? At least slow down on the hitler comparisons, make it last a little longer...
Well, if it makes you feel better you can compare me with anything you wish. :cat fight: And Freakzilla can defend himself, what i wrote I do not feel that it be abusive (does it read like that? English is not my first language, using different languages makes our minds to work different as Dan Everett observed when studying the Pirahâ)

BTW (on the previous topic again) I remember these lines from that book I mentioned: "Some say the past is closed, the present is flowing to the future and the future is open, is it really so?" "But if we say that time flows, it implies an external frame of reference, an absolute time outside the Universe, a useless complication" (these are not the exact words used by David Deutsch, I'm quoting from memory)

For me, time dilation, when travelling to speeds close to the speed of light is evidence that the future is closed, observers moving to different speeds can argue than an event happened before, at the same time or after what the other observer claims that he observed.

In my conception of reality, time is another dimension, i have height, length, width, also time, and I'm enclosed in this four dimensions; my end in time is as set as is my end in height, my death date is already determined!
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby inhuien » 26 Apr 2009 05:50

Carlos, Dear chap, you were not being called or compared to a Nazi.
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby Schu » 26 Apr 2009 09:01

Yes, listen to inhuien. Geez, sometimes I think you only pretend not to understand what's going on.

Sure Freakzilla can defend himself. Good for him. What was your point?

You sound like someone who's taken one university (or maybe just high school) course on physics or philosophy (or maybe even read a couple of books) and thinks they know everything because of that, when they don't have a clue even about relativity. That's the best response I can give to your non-sequitur ramblings about physics.

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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby SadisticCynic » 26 Apr 2009 09:38

Also according to quantum mechanics your height and width etc aren't exactly defined due to wave-particle duality and the Uncertainty Principle. It's easy to suppose then that your 'time' isn't precisely defined either.

I must relook up the Copenhagen interpretation, sounds like I might like it, just can't remember it atm.
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby Freakzilla » 27 Apr 2009 13:14

Time is a measure of movemnt, without motion there is no time. :?
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby SadisticCynic » 27 Apr 2009 13:59

So if there's an error in your measurement of the motion (and there always will be) then there is an error in your measurement (or calculation) of time.

I'm just generally disagreeing with a deterministic universe.
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby Freakzilla » 27 Apr 2009 15:39

SadisticCynic wrote:So if there's an error in your measurement of the motion (and there always will be) then there is an error in your measurement (or calculation) of time.


Not only that, the more accurately you try to measure in one dimension the more the margin of error increases in the others. (Uncertainty Principle?)

Besides that, how can any measurement of distance be accurate when space itself is expanding?
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby SadisticCynic » 27 Apr 2009 17:41

I've never read anything more about expansion than the background microwave effect. It makes me wonder though; as we observe phenomenon we see almost concentric circles of circular motion, expanding from the microscopic to the macroscopic: electrons in an atom, planets in a solar system, stars in a galaxy, galaxies in clusters etc.

So could the apparent expansion be due to an even bigger oscillation bearing in mind that pretty much everything in the universe appears to follow some sort of oscillation (and I don't mean the Big Crunch, I mean some sort of circular motion)?

As far as I know the apparent discrepancies in length measurements can be predicted and accounted for by relativity. I also read once that the distances estimated for the space between galaxies etc cannot be measures particularly accurately.

(I imagine at least some of this is wrong so feel free to correct me).
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby Schu » 27 Apr 2009 21:50

There is more evidence for expansion of the universe than backgroud radiation. Though I believe you're right in that distances between distant galaxies and us are not particularly accurate, nonetheless, the relative speed of them away from us is relatively easily measured by the red shift, and there's a very close correlation between the two, and that's very good evidence for an expanding universe.

Oscillations occur at all levels IMO because that's what forces (electromagnetism and gravity in particular) tend to do, I doubt it's some structural element of the universe.

Freakzilla wrote:Time is a measure of movemnt, without motion there is no time.


"time doesn't count itsself - one only has to look at a circle to see this" - FH

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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby SadisticCynic » 28 Apr 2009 11:10

I was just reading about the Copenhagen and many-worlds interpretations and I'm a bit confused by the many-worlds hypothesis.
It's often asserted that these worlds are non-communicating but then things like the single photon interference pattern are explained in terms of interference with a particle from another parallel universe. This seems to me contradictory; did I miss something?
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby cmsahe » 29 Apr 2009 14:57

Schu wrote:. and thinks they know everything because of that,.

Oh my dear Schu...You need a mirror.
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby Schu » 29 Apr 2009 20:40

cmsahe wrote:
Schu wrote:. and thinks they know everything because of that,.

Oh my dear Schu...You need a mirror.


Dear cmsahe - I know the limits of my knowledge. They're merely beyond yours, at the least about physics anyway.

SadisticCynic - I've never really understood that either.

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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby cmsahe » 29 Apr 2009 22:37

Schu wrote:
cmsahe wrote:
Schu wrote:. and thinks they know everything because of that,.

Oh my dear Schu...You need a mirror.


Dear cmsahe - I know the limits of my knowledge. They're merely beyond yours, at the least about physics anyway.

SadisticCynic - I've never really understood that either.
Your act has bored me, go to dunenovels to complain about me: "the posts of cmsahe are foolish", "this guy hates me". et cetera; I won't be pay attention to you bullying anymore.
:cat fight:
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby cmsahe » 29 Apr 2009 22:55

SadisticCynic wrote:I was just reading about the Copenhagen and many-worlds interpretations and I'm a bit confused by the many-worlds hypothesis.
It's often asserted that these worlds are non-communicating but then things like the single photon interference pattern are explained in terms of interference with a particle from another parallel universe. This seems to me contradictory; did I miss something?


I'm not answering to anyone in particular, especially that guy who believes the world revolves around him. I just want to share this. I have read a lot about Quantum Field theory, the Inflationary model, the theory of relativity and cosmology in general, Do I remember everything? No, Do I understand it all? no, quoting Einstein: "You understood something when you are able to explain it to your grandmother". (I can't do this!)

But, IMO (a big if) this experiment demonstrates the parallel universes.

the experiment goes like this: A photon is shot through an interferometer and 100% of the times a photon is detected coming out.
But inside there are mirrors and semi silvered mirrors (like the ones the police uses), supposedly, 50% of the times the photon should come out, do not the 100% of the times, Why? the explanation of the physicists who believe in Parallel universes is that either the photon or its ghost companion (one of the zillions of ghost companions), comes out of the interferometer, Why' because their mathematical theories and calculations prove it, Can I demonstrate it? No, I have a degree in Administrative Computational Systems, and i do a boring job punching keys, and programming boring reports, I'm not a physicists.

The Interference phenomena, are at the core of the new science of quantum computing, the science that uses quantum mechanical processes, like interference, to perform the computations:

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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 30 Apr 2009 02:12

I'm really not up on this whole multi-universe "ghost" partical idea (I'd hesitate to call it a theory), so I may be wrong about this, BUT while my understanding of quantum mechanics is limited, my comprehension of wave physics and phase interference phenomena is quite good. I can think of no explanation for why two particles (in seperate universes or in the same) going through the different slits in the classic wave/partical duality demonstration test would result in the interference pattern occuring. This absolutely requires waves, not particles. That pattern is a result of wave "crests" and "valleys" of positive and negative "pressure" (positive or negative phase of a cycle) interacting to either cancel each other out, or to reinforce each other. Particles do not have phase, that's the joy of quantum mechanics, nothing makes any sense unless we admt that everything exists in waves unless we're currently "looking" at it.

Like I said, I could be totally wrong, but this too me sounds like someone not being able to cope with wave/particle duality and simply giving up on the wave half in favour of a vastly more complex particle only idea. This multi-universe idea also doesn't seem to explain at all why the whole phase interference pattern is destroyed when we measure which slit the particle went through... but I guess someone smarter than me came up with this so there might be something to it, smells weak to me though.
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby Schu » 30 Apr 2009 02:33

cmsahe wrote:Your act has bored me, go to dunenovels to complain about me: "the posts of cmsahe are foolish", "this guy hates me". et cetera; I won't be pay attention to you bullying anymore.
:cat fight:
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I'm not bullying you. You just get defensive about every little thing. Go cry in a corner if what I type, from across the world, about physics, upsets you.

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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby SandChigger » 30 Apr 2009 04:17

(I'm just fascinated at how romance can bloom in the most unexpected places. Be sure to take and post pix/vids if you two ever get your cybergroove on, OK? Ooh, the laws of bodies in motion ... Mmm Mmm MMMM!!! :P )
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby Schu » 30 Apr 2009 04:20

Kepler p0rn.... nice.

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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby GamePlayer » 30 Apr 2009 11:05

Did someone say pron? :)
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby Rakis » 30 Apr 2009 11:21

You mean porn... :whistle:
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby TheDukester » 30 Apr 2009 11:22

My automatic pr0n-detection algorithm just kicked in ... what's going on? Did we finally reach actual pictures of hot sisters in swimsuits?
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Re: The Limits of Logic

Postby SadisticCynic » 30 Apr 2009 11:26

Middle letters (numbers Schu?) don't matter, jsut mkee srue the lsat and frist are crorcet. :wink:
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