The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

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The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby cmsahe » 21 Jun 2009 22:45

Reread the episode where Alia and Hayt examine the dead body of the girl found in the desert, on their way back, they fly over the pyramid that contains the remains of Duke Leto.
Only the books written by Frank Herbert are canon.


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Re: The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby SandChigger » 22 Jun 2009 00:36

So?

Do you really think they knew it was there? If so, why did they never counter the complaints?

And there's certainly no support there for the way they depict it as having been constructed.

Or that it was the enormous structure they describe:

FH in Dune wrote:I enshrined the skull of my father in a Fremen rock mound overlooking Harg Pass.

Paul speaking. A Fremen mound.

pyramid:
- a monumental structure with a square or triangular base and sloping sides that meet in a point at the top, esp. one built of stone as a royal tomb in ancient Egypt.
- a pile of things with such a form : a pyramid of logs.

A small mound or pile of rocks could be called a pyramid.

Fremen were not allowed tombs. Paul eschewed the Egyptian way. He wouldn't have built an enormous tomb for his father. Just a small mound, according to Fremen practice.

And check this:

http://images.google.com/images?client= ... =en&tab=wi

Image

It's pretty sloppy for none of us to have caught this, but it doesn't mean they're right. They've misread the Messiah and ignored the Dune.
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Re: The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Jun 2009 09:02

For reference:

"Isn't that El Kuds down there?" he asked, dipping a wing briefly, causing a
sudden flurry in their escort.
She looked down at their shadows rippling across the promontory above Harg
Pass, at the cliff and the rock pyramid containing the skull of her father. El
Kuds -- the Holy Place.
"That's the Holy Place," she said.
"I must visit that place one day," he said. "Nearness to your father's
remains may bring memories I can capture."

...


And she saw his right hand lift, fall -- almost the old salute of Caladan. A
pensive look came over his face. She watched him peer down at the rock pyramid.


~DM
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Re: The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby cmsahe » 22 Jun 2009 22:38

SandChigger wrote:.. Paul eschewed the Egyptian way. He wouldn't have built an enormous tomb for his father. Just a small mound, according to Fremen practice.

And check this:...

I must be reading anothe version (a chinese bootleg like those Hong Kong Harry Potter sequels:) (He didn't schued the Egyptian way:) )

From the Road to Dune

"Your walking tour of Arrakis must include this approach across the dunes to the Grand Palace at Arrakeen. From a distance, the dimensions of this construction are deceptive ... The largest man-made structure ever built, the Grand Palace could cover more than ten of the Imperium's most populous cities under one roof, a fact that becomes more apparent when you learn Atreides attendants and their families, housed spaciously in the Palace Annex, number some thirty-five million souls ... When you walk into the Grand Reception Hall of the Palace at Arrakeen, be prepared to feel dwarfed before an immensity never before conceived. A statue of St. Alia Atreides, shown as "The Soother of Pains," stands twenty-two meters tall but is one of the smallest adornments in the hall. Two hundred such statues could be stacked one atop the other against the entrance pillars and still fall short of the doorway's capitol arch, which itself is almost a thousand meters below the first beams upholding the lower roof."
Only the books written by Frank Herbert are canon.


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Re: The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby SandChigger » 22 Jun 2009 23:28

Um, you do realize that a palace isn't a tomb, yes?

Reconcile "a Fremen rock mound" with the monumental pyramid in PoD. That's the issue.
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Re: The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby cmsahe » 23 Jun 2009 01:35

SandChigger wrote:...
Reconcile "a Fremen rock mound" with the monumental pyramid in PoD. That's the issue.


Yes you are right, they read "pyramid" and visualed a huge alien pyramid like the one built by the Predators in AvP or something like that.

Happens that, when re-reading Dune Messiah and reading that passage, (thanks Freakazilla for posting it) I was momentarily alarmed and fearful that I had done the ridicule over there at Dune Novels: "2 times 2 equals six!! oops..."
Only the books written by Frank Herbert are canon.


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Re: The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby SandChigger » 14 Nov 2009 03:23

By the way, El Kuds, the name of the "Holy Place" of the "pyramid" ... in Arabic it means "heap, pile, accumulation". :)
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Re: The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby Omphalos » 14 Nov 2009 03:34

SandChigger wrote:By the way, El Kuds, the name of the "Holy Place" of the "pyramid" ... in Arabic it means "heap, pile, accumulation". :)


Just what I was going to ask you, Chig. Thanks.

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Re: The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby Freakzilla » 14 Nov 2009 10:50

The pyramids were built by people with deminishing goals.
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Re: The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby SandChigger » 14 Nov 2009 11:33

Omphalos wrote:Just what I was going to ask you, Chig. Thanks.

SARCASM will get you everywhere. :P

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Re: The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby Ampoliros » 14 Nov 2009 12:01

Also, its pretty bad architecture to build a huge fuck-off pyramid on a cliff, especially they way they describe it, with thopters bringing in huge stones to just lay down.

iirc most rock mounds are started small and then maintained as pilgrims or simple passer-bys add a stone as a sign of reverence. Being on Dune the rock mound would probably last longer than a pyramid which would survive the first 3 coriolis storms and then crumble.
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Re: The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby SadisticCynic » 16 Nov 2009 11:46

iirc most rock mounds are started small and then maintained as pilgrims or simple passer-bys add a stone as a sign of reverence. Being on Dune the rock mound would probably last longer than a pyramid which would survive the first 3 coriolis storms and then crumble.



As I recall this is precisely what the Fremen did. Remember when Paul is preparing for his first worm-trip? He imagines if he dies in the attempt then there will be a rock mound where he fell, and passing Fremen would add a stone in his memory.
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Re: The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby Freakzilla » 16 Nov 2009 12:27

SadisticCynic wrote:
iirc most rock mounds are started small and then maintained as pilgrims or simple passer-bys add a stone as a sign of reverence. Being on Dune the rock mound would probably last longer than a pyramid which would survive the first 3 coriolis storms and then crumble.



As I recall this is precisely what the Fremen did. Remember when Paul is preparing for his first worm-trip? He imagines if he dies in the attempt then there will be a rock mound where he fell, and passing Fremen would add a stone in his memory.


While looking for that I found this:

He shied away from thought of riding the giant worms, asking himself: Or is
Alia yet to be born?
I was on razzia, Paul recalled. We went raiding to recover the water of our
dead in Arrakeen. And I found the remains of my father in the funeral pyre. I
enshrined the skull of my father in a Fremen rock mound overlooking Harg Pass.
Or was that a thing yet to be?


...then later in that chapter the quote you refer to...

Will there be a rock shrine here this day to mark the passing of another
soul? Paul asked himself. Will Fremen stop here in the future, each to add
another stone and think on Muad'Dib who died in this place?


IN YOUR FACE, KJA! :P
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Re: The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby Ampoliros » 16 Nov 2009 18:21

Good thing Irulan was just embellishing the tale about a rock mound when Fremen have the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of a GIANT PYRAMID to counter what she wrote.

So explain to me again how Dune is just Irulan's 'in-universe text' yet she 'makes up' differences in landmarks?
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Re: The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby Hunchback Jack » 17 Nov 2009 21:37

Freakzilla wrote:While looking for that I found this:

He shied away from thought of riding the giant worms, asking himself: Or is
Alia yet to be born?
I was on razzia, Paul recalled. We went raiding to recover the water of our
dead in Arrakeen. And I found the remains of my father in the funeral pyre. I
enshrined the skull of my father in a Fremen rock mound overlooking Harg Pass.
Or was that a thing yet to be?


...then later in that chapter the quote you refer to...

Will there be a rock shrine here this day to mark the passing of another
soul? Paul asked himself. Will Fremen stop here in the future, each to add
another stone and think on Muad'Dib who died in this place?


IN YOUR FACE, KJA! :P


Just read this passage the other day, and thought much the same thing. :)

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Re: The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby Onasander » 06 May 2010 02:25

Sandy is correct- oddly enough.

I feel sick saying that.

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Re: The pyramid is mentioned in Dune Messiah

Postby SandChigger » 06 May 2010 03:02

You'll get over it after a while.

Or you'll choke to death on it. :)

I'm not bothered either way. But if you start to feel really ill, you could always save yourself the trouble and die in a fire, like 'Rider has suggested.