Length of day on Arrakis

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SandChigger
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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby SandChigger » 02 Dec 2009 09:54

By the way...

lotek wrote:I grew up with a dad who grew up with Star Trek and the 1st man on the moon

:shock:

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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby lotek » 02 Dec 2009 10:29

SandChigger wrote:By the way...

lotek wrote:I grew up with a dad who grew up with Star Trek and the 1st man on the moon

:shock:


yeah I know it does sound weird, I was trying to say that my love for sci fi was not spontaneous, and that I was always fascinated by what it must have felt like for him to see his favourite shos inspire reality :)

Thanks for the advice I'll look it up tonight on my own pc ;)
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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby SandChigger » 02 Dec 2009 16:09

No, I meant I also grew up with Star Trek and the first man on the moon.

Way to make me feel old. :P

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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby lotek » 02 Dec 2009 17:09

and how old would that be(also in Arrakeen years of course ;))

are your settings for the Arrakis model exportable btw?
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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby SandChigger » 02 Dec 2009 23:52

Was the Resources folder on Windows the same as I described?
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby lotek » 03 Dec 2009 06:17

SandChigger wrote:Was the Resources folder on Windows the same as I described?


woops didn't check was busy finding out the unprotected wifi connection I was using from home was not ours but the neighbours...
made my flatmates laugh though...
I'll let you know tonight old man :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby lotek » 03 Dec 2009 19:08

I do have an extras folder at the root of the main folder, empty

then there is on the same level a extras-standard one
SandChigger wrote:
lotek wrote:btw does your quote mean you can create a new "celestial body" in that simulation?

Yep.

I assume the set-up is the same on Windows ... inside the application folder there should be a folder named Celestia Resources (or similar). Inside THAT there's a folder named Extras.

Inside that folder on my machines I have a folder named "duniverse". It currently contains six items:

duniverse.ssc = file that contains planet & satellite data (puts Arrakis around Canopus, etc.)
duniverse.stc = file for adding stars not currently included by Celestia
locs.ssc = file for labelling locations (like cities [Arrakeen on Arrakis] or geographical features ["The Palmeries"], etc.)
models (folder), currently empty (would contain 3D models for irregularly shaped asteroids, spacecraft, space stations, etc.)
(test.ssc = files I use for quick tests of stuff, currently empty)
textures (folder), contains another folder called "medres" containing various texture images, like surface maps for planets, surface textures for 3D models (like a solar collector image for solar panels on satellites, etc).

A lot of stuff, but not really all that complicated... :P



right it seems that's the one you mean, it seems to have models for space probes like hubble or galileo, and contains ssc, stc and cmd files
So that's what you have to edit to create your own model?
Does it mean you could create a complete solar system from scratch or you can just add new bodies to the simulation?


Any links for some tutorials?


Please?
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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby SandChigger » 03 Dec 2009 19:35

Here are some links:

Celestia forums: http://www.shatters.net/forum/

The Celestia Motherlode: www.celestiamotherlode.net/ (lots of extra add-ons)

PM me your email address and I'll send you the files to put an Arrakis around Canopus for you. :)

(It's still just a test mock up, no moons or other planets in the system.)

Onasander

Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby Onasander » 17 Dec 2009 18:20

A few possibilities that need accounted for:

The Seasons may be 'growing seasons' based purely on predictable cycles in the planet's weather system. This may be a reaction to predictable solar flares messing around with the clouds on the planet (less likely, but still possible) to the seasons being a result of a partial and long term eclipse the sun, covering up only a portion of the equator on dune for part of the year. The lack of solar energy playing on the sand and atmosphere might cause contractions and expansions of the sand storms on arrakis. On earth, we have a illusion that the moon and the sun line up perfectly to cancel one another out in a full eclipse... just by a flux of distance solar eccipse comes out this way. We don't know the effects this has on dune. We don't know the effects of the moon on dune in causing tidal/tectonic forces on dune. Only five characters in dune would be expected to know (though alaya might, making it six), and none of them spoke of this. Whatever the tilt of dune, it doesn't mean the moon goes along with this either, it might orbit the planet ot a offtilt angle of it's own, and dune might orbit the sun in a orbit off from the rest of the planets. Furthermore, we know (as I mentioned solar flares already) the nature of solar winds and microplanets nearby.

The fremen calendar uses what they knew at the time of coming to dune, and they make it afterwards, synchronizing it with the new environment. I am sure there is redundant or outright inaccurate information in it, as in all classical calendars. Who knows what directions bored fremen astronomers and theologians did with recalculating and upholding all this extra information.

Oh yeah- I was stationed in Alaska for a while. It needs to be noted, in the far northern areas, FOUR SUNS can be seen at one time in the farthest north. We assume dune has a magnetosphere, and similar elements as we do- but the question arises- WHY? All we know is the planet has ice, sand, oxygen, and carbon dioxide. I am sure we can point out other elements humans need for survival. It's atmosphere does who knows what.... all I know, having that much sand in the atmosphere is going to cause some strange optical situations arising... the sort you can't easily predict but becomes obvious to the scientific mind with direct observation. I do not quite understand fully why at that far north earth gets four suns, but I figure it has something to do with temperature, elements, and the angle with the play on light. No one guessed this ahead of time till someone stumbled up north and saw it.

So, all this stuff hear makes me wonder, are we looking at this incorrectly? Yes, Frank probably didn't go all that deep and it was oversight after oversight on his part... but does that limit us from finding a way to make the contradicting information work anyway?

Earth has developed Lunar and Solar calendars... maybe dune's seasons are based on a different cycle all together that only a planetologist could appreciate based on local, solar system wide norms? Any local population is going to pick up on this. I think cycles inherent in sand storms would qualify as seasons- all weather would be effected. Seasons as well would differ fro how we see them. Autumn on a planet with no trees might use the word 'autumn' to differentiate it from other seasons that doesn't completely match up with out own concept.


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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby chanilover » 17 Dec 2009 18:52

Onasander wrote:A few possibilities that need accounted for:

The Seasons may be 'growing seasons' based purely on predictable cycles in the planet's weather system. This may be a reaction to predictable solar flares messing around with the clouds on the planet (less likely, but still possible) to the seasons being a result of a partial and long term eclipse the sun, covering up only a portion of the equator on dune for part of the year. The lack of solar energy playing on the sand and atmosphere might cause contractions and expansions of the sand storms on arrakis. On earth, we have a illusion that the moon and the sun line up perfectly to cancel one another out in a full eclipse... just by a flux of distance solar eccipse comes out this way. We don't know the effects this has on dune. We don't know the effects of the moon on dune in causing tidal/tectonic forces on dune. Only five characters in dune would be expected to know (though alaya might, making it six), and none of them spoke of this. Whatever the tilt of dune, it doesn't mean the moon goes along with this either, it might orbit the planet ot a offtilt angle of it's own, and dune might orbit the sun in a orbit off from the rest of the planets. Furthermore, we know (as I mentioned solar flares already) the nature of solar winds and microplanets nearby.

The fremen calendar uses what they knew at the time of coming to dune, and they make it afterwards, synchronizing it with the new environment. I am sure there is redundant or outright inaccurate information in it, as in all classical calendars. Who knows what directions bored fremen astronomers and theologians did with recalculating and upholding all this extra information.

Oh yeah- I was stationed in Alaska for a while. It needs to be noted, in the far northern areas, FOUR SUNS can be seen at one time in the farthest north. We assume dune has a magnetosphere, and similar elements as we do- but the question arises- WHY? All we know is the planet has ice, sand, oxygen, and carbon dioxide. I am sure we can point out other elements humans need for survival. It's atmosphere does who knows what.... all I know, having that much sand in the atmosphere is going to cause some strange optical situations arising... the sort you can't easily predict but becomes obvious to the scientific mind with direct observation. I do not quite understand fully why at that far north earth gets four suns, but I figure it has something to do with temperature, elements, and the angle with the play on light. No one guessed this ahead of time till someone stumbled up north and saw it.

So, all this stuff hear makes me wonder, are we looking at this incorrectly? Yes, Frank probably didn't go all that deep and it was oversight after oversight on his part... but does that limit us from finding a way to make the contradicting information work anyway?

Earth has developed Lunar and Solar calendars... maybe dune's seasons are based on a different cycle all together that only a planetologist could appreciate based on local, solar system wide norms? Any local population is going to pick up on this. I think cycles inherent in sand storms would qualify as seasons- all weather would be effected. Seasons as well would differ fro how we see them. Autumn on a planet with no trees might use the word 'autumn' to differentiate it from other seasons that doesn't completely match up with out own concept.


:tissue2: :cylon101: :violin: :cat fight: :Adolf: :dance: :clap: :crazy: :puke:


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Onasander

Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby Onasander » 17 Dec 2009 19:28

sunlight charges clouds on earth- makes them move. The big glowy hot thing in the middle of the solar system is going to have a effect on the seasons of dune. You can't just calculate one orbit and a shift in the axis, you have to go into the deeper mechanics. Do the sandstorms operate in cycles? Would there be a need for long term calculations derived from weather satellites on such a planet?

Factors of equatorial distribution and plate tectonics, as well as tidal forces on lard dune formations will matter here. Tidal forces will not matter as much as earth as the Sahel is wimpy in comparison to dune (we only get 5 sided dunes in Saudi Arabia- Dune will be far more complex).

So, we are left with questions. Dune possesses a merchant-nobility, and aircraft, never penetrated the equator.... are we really going to believe the emperor and the dukes who controlled dune over the ages just accepted the fact you can't penetrate into the south? No, of course not, that would counter human nature. There must of been reasons explorers second thought the situation. A big ass, scary, migrating tidal dune area would explain alot... especially if the athmosphere was especially charged here, and with a magnetosphere severly lacking in this area, they might not of been feeling all that thrilled playing in such a charged atmosphere. It would turn any explorer back who had something to lose by ceding his impulse to go foreward with the warning nothing was out there. It's what kept the americas from being discovered for so long. The nagging fears and the doubts don't work on some types, but the coplete loss of supplies, weird effects in weather, and no positive results do.

If a large enough portion of the equatorial region was blocked from the sun for who knows how long.... by another planet for a length of time, the moon, or another celestial body... then the energy pouring these storms would decrease. Thus, a kind of seasons. Not the kind we want, but it would be seasons none the less. A change of atmospheric currents, redistribution of moisture in predictable patterns. Common sense stuff.

The four suns happen on earth in the far north. I'll google around for picks. Everyone got excited about pointing out how high the latidude was, figured it was a good idea to point out the sun behaves oddly the farther north you go on earth. Not saying it was a solution to the sun being above during the noon hours, just need to be more when scaping what the behavior of the sun would be, it's visual position and effects may have more dependant variables than those used to living in the tropics are used to comprehending. I have been both in Desert(Iraq and Kuwait) and above the Arctic Circle, as well as here in the lower 48- sun behaves differently in all three.

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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 17 Dec 2009 21:08

Man...I'm a astronomer, I'm doing my masters with emphasis on planetology, and I never read so much non-sense at a single post. Sorry. i don't know even where to start.

Don't exist this thing you called "four suns" in the far north. What happens is the famous mid-night sun, and is only because of the tilt of Earth's rotation axis.

Sun don't "charge" clouds like battery (and don't make them move). Sun heat the atmosphere has a whole. Clouds are condensed volatile (H2O in earth, NH3 in Jupiter, per example). It forms at the altitude where the pressure and temperate are optimal to this volatile condensation. What makes the clouds move is only the wind of a dynamic active atmosphere.

I didn't read all your post, but any question about planetary science I will try to help you (I'm still a student about that yet, though).
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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 18 Dec 2009 01:27

Yeah, if Lisan says it's BS it must be BS. :lol: He only stops being nice for someone really far over the line...
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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby Omphalos » 18 Dec 2009 02:52

I agree. Still, don't need me a doctor to tell which way the wind blows.

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Another bright star rises over Jacurutu...

Postby SandChigger » 18 Dec 2009 03:00

Lisan, I think with the babbling about four suns he meant sun dogs:
A sun dog or sundog (scientific name parhelion, plural parhelia, from "beside the sun"; also called a mock sun) is an atmospheric phenomenon that creates bright spots of light in the sky, often on a luminous ring or halo on either side of the sun.

Sundogs may appear as a colored patch of light to the left or right of the sun, 22° (or more) distant and at the same distance above the horizon as the sun, and in ice halos. They can be seen anywhere in the world during any season. In Europe and North America, they might be seen as often as twice a week but they are not always obvious or bright. They are best seen and at their most conspicuous when the sun is low.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dog

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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby lotek » 18 Dec 2009 06:09

at what point did that thread become filled with utter nonsense?
Onaman do you do that on purpose, or do you really believe what you say?

I mean if you are going to become our very own jester we need to get you one of those:
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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby chanilover » 18 Dec 2009 09:48

lotek wrote:at what point did that thread become filled with utter nonsense?
Onaman do you do that on purpose, or do you really believe what you say?

I mean if you are going to become our very own jester we need to get you one of those:
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Great dog, how do you train him to sit still with that hat on his head?

Wonder if some of the posts at Dungnovels are created by dogs licking and pawing the keyboard whilst their owners have nipped out to pick up their dole money.
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Re: Another bright star rises over Jacurutu...

Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 18 Dec 2009 10:24

SandChigger wrote:Lisan, I think with the babbling about four suns he meant sun dogs:
A sun dog or sundog (scientific name parhelion, plural parhelia, from "beside the sun"; also called a mock sun) is an atmospheric phenomenon that creates bright spots of light in the sky, often on a luminous ring or halo on either side of the sun.

Sundogs may appear as a colored patch of light to the left or right of the sun, 22° (or more) distant and at the same distance above the horizon as the sun, and in ice halos. They can be seen anywhere in the world during any season. In Europe and North America, they might be seen as often as twice a week but they are not always obvious or bright. They are best seen and at their most conspicuous when the sun is low.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dog


Oh, now I understand what he means. That's only a refraction phenomenon. Not dynamically important as a whole.
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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby SandChigger » 18 Dec 2009 11:46

And evidently not that rare. Nor something that occurs only in the northernmost latitudes.

Nor in any way relevant, since I don't recall FH ever mentioning it happening on Arrakis....

:roll:

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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby lotek » 18 Dec 2009 12:45

chanilover wrote:Great dog, how do you train him to sit still with that hat on his head?



we used staples!
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chanilover wrote:Wonder if some of the posts at Dungnovels are created by dogs licking and pawing the keyboard whilst their owners have nipped out to pick up their dole money.


Isn't it a thousand monkeys? :)
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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby DuneFishUK » 20 Dec 2009 10:36

lotek wrote:Isn't it a thousand monkeys? :)

Monkeys are intelligent.



So are dogs for that matter.

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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby SadisticCynic » 20 Dec 2009 10:44

DuneFishUK wrote:
lotek wrote:Isn't it a thousand monkeys? :)

Monkeys are intelligent.



So are dogs for that matter.


Judging from your avatar I'd say you're biased. :P
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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby A Little Galach » 02 Apr 2010 11:39

Doesn't kynes mention the fast rotation of arrakis as the reason for the coriolis storms? That would affect the length of day, no? This topic may have been a part of dune that FH may have, uh, overlooked.

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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby Freakzilla » 02 Apr 2010 11:49

I believe a coriolis storm is by definition caused by rotation, no?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect
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Re: Length of day on Arrakis

Postby Omphalos » 02 Apr 2010 13:01

Freakzilla wrote:I believe a coriolis storm is by definition caused by rotation, no?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect


Rotation that runs up against weather patterns that go against prevailing patterns, or fronts that are pulled down mountain tops.