Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Image
    Can't find the appropriate forum for your topic? Post it here!

Moderators: ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Omphalos, Freakzilla

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby lotek » 23 Aug 2009 03:24

Image
(click on pic)

Volume 2, Issue 5 © 1998, 1999 by Crescent Blues, Inc. All Rights Reserved


A bit old but still funny in its own way...
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
Redstar
Posts: 1184
Joined: 25 Feb 2009 04:13

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby Redstar » 23 Aug 2009 04:19

Crescent Blues: For folks who've not yet read Dune, does the "Atreides" in the title of House Atreides, the first novel in the Prequel to Dune trilogy, have anything to do the family of Agamemnon, the king who led the Greek forces in the Trojan War?

Kevin J. Anderson: Exactly, that's who Paul, the hero of Dune, is descended from. It's his family's blood heritage -- House Atreides from the line of Agamemnon. In fact, in the third chapter of House Atreides, the characters watch a performance of Agamemnon by Aeschylus.

I thought it was a robot Agamemnon.

After we had already agreed to do it, we plotted some things. We decided to do the prequel instead of the sequel at the moment -- we will eventually do the last one. And after we had already plotted the prequel, that's when Brian, by digging through all the stuff we had on Dune, came upon the key to the safe deposit where he found the [Dune 7] outline.

Weren't they called and told about the safe?

Ed Kramer, a mutual friend of ours, got us together, and instantly [Brian and I] hit it off. Brian called me up, and my wife likes to say, within two minutes we were talking a completely different language, because I have read everything of Frank Herbert's. I knew it inside and out.

Wasn't it the other way around, Kevin calling Brian?

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby lotek » 23 Aug 2009 04:37

Redstar wrote:
Crescent Blues: For folks who've not yet read Dune, does the "Atreides" in the title of House Atreides, the first novel in the Prequel to Dune trilogy, have anything to do the family of Agamemnon, the king who led the Greek forces in the Trojan War?

Kevin J. Anderson: Exactly, that's who Paul, the hero of Dune, is descended from. It's his family's blood heritage -- House Atreides from the line of Agamemnon. In fact, in the third chapter of House Atreides, the characters watch a performance of Agamemnon by Aeschylus.

I thought it was a robot Agamemnon.


You have a point there, I don't remember wether the slymock Agamemnon was supposed to have its name come from a distant ancestor or that he just picked it from history books...
In both instances, applying that line of reasoning to "Barbarossa" would be fun though, do you think the crazy cybErg has a famous pirate in his genetic memories?
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby SandChigger » 23 Aug 2009 04:40

Holy Hagiography, Batman!

It's the official line in its infancy! :lol:
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

User avatar
Serkanner
Posts: 2830
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby Serkanner » 23 Aug 2009 04:44

lotek wrote:
Redstar wrote:
Crescent Blues: For folks who've not yet read Dune, does the "Atreides" in the title of House Atreides, the first novel in the Prequel to Dune trilogy, have anything to do the family of Agamemnon, the king who led the Greek forces in the Trojan War?

Kevin J. Anderson: Exactly, that's who Paul, the hero of Dune, is descended from. It's his family's blood heritage -- House Atreides from the line of Agamemnon. In fact, in the third chapter of House Atreides, the characters watch a performance of Agamemnon by Aeschylus.

I thought it was a robot Agamemnon.


You have a point there, I don't remember wether the slymock Agamemnon was supposed to have its name come from a distant ancestor or that he just picked it from history books...
In both instances, applying that line of reasoning to "Barbarossa" would be fun though, do you think the crazy cybErg has a famous pirate in his genetic memories?


You do know there was a German king called Barbarossa? He was killed during the third crusade. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_ ... an_Emperor )
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby SandChigger » 23 Aug 2009 04:49

lotek wrote:In both instances, applying that line of reasoning to "Barbarossa" would be fun though, do you think the crazy cybErg has a famous pirate in his genetic memories?

And more to the point ... the Titans did not have any form of access to their genetic memories. ???
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby lotek » 23 Aug 2009 04:54

SandChigger wrote:
lotek wrote:In both instances, applying that line of reasoning to "Barbarossa" would be fun though, do you think the crazy cybErg has a famous pirate in his genetic memories?

And more to the point ... the Titans did not have any form of access to their genetic memories. ???


Well I was streching it from the hack's point of view(devil's advocate stuff ;))

Because how the fuck did the Titan Agamemnon stumble by chance on an old antiquity king's name that happened to be his distant ancestor?
I mean the odds are pretty overwhelming aren't they?

@ Serkanner: nope I didn't know about that Frederik Barbarossa(is he mentionned in the nudune? those i read i read so fast i didn't pay attention to details)_ thanks for the info
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby SandChigger » 23 Aug 2009 05:34

lotek wrote:Because how the fuck did the Titan Agamemnon stumble by chance on an old antiquity king's name that happened to be his distant ancestor?
I mean the odds are pretty overwhelming aren't they?

Actually, I can't find any indication at the moment that Andrew Skouros (Titan Agamemnon's birth name) knew or claimed to be a descendant of the ancient Agamemnon. It would be EXTREMELY problematic for him or his family to know such a thing, even as a half-remembered family tradition, WITHOUT access to their genetic memory. (Not the least aspect of which being, where are these people now? ;) )

In the original books, with the interest shown in the Atreides line, it's possible the Bene Gesserit verified the authenticity of the bloodline and told the Atreides who they were. ;)

User avatar
Redstar
Posts: 1184
Joined: 25 Feb 2009 04:13

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby Redstar » 23 Aug 2009 05:40

SandChigger wrote:
lotek wrote:Because how the fuck did the Titan Agamemnon stumble by chance on an old antiquity king's name that happened to be his distant ancestor?
I mean the odds are pretty overwhelming aren't they?

Actually, I can't find any indication at the moment that Andrew Skouros (Titan Agamemnon's birth name) knew or claimed to be a descendant of the ancient Agamemnon. It would be EXTREMELY problematic for him or his family to know such a thing, even as a half-remembered family tradition, WITHOUT access to their genetic memory. (Not the least aspect of which being, where are these people now? ;) )

In the original books, with the interest shown in the Atreides line, it's possible the Bene Gesserit verified the authenticity of the bloodline and told the Atreides who they were. ;)

Considering what little is known of earth and human heritage, the Titans knowing even the name of any of the the originals they took their name from seems unlikely. Computers were obviously still in place by the time of the BJ, but I seriously doubt anything relevant prior to the 5,000 years or so before that time would still be recorded.

So yeah. The Bene Gesserit later confirming the line and the Atreides using it as propaganda to claim their "divine (birth)right" seems likely. The BG were in the business of starting governments, after all.

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby lotek » 23 Aug 2009 05:42

1) the Atreides bloodline descends from Agamemnon (FH + nudune) (there are some quotes about Atreides OM in Dune aren't they?)
2) no OM at the time of the TItans (FH + nudune)
3) Vorian Atreides son of the Titan A. is the ancestor for the Atreides line (nudune)
Question: the Titan A. chose his name how?

How would KJA explain that?
The Titan A. shouldn't know anything of his ancestry and still he chose to call himself that way.
Of course you could say that it was chance, but ultimately it was KJA's choice, and HE knew about that ancestry(even if he's shite at Dune)
So maybe KJA is the Titan's OM :puke:
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby SandRider » 23 Aug 2009 06:13

Stop this diversion in actual discussion of Keith's bullshit fanfiction,
and get back to the meat ...

THIS is the interview I've been thinking about, but
haven't searched for.

Keith says a "mutual friend" got them together ... that story's changed
now in something most likely closer to the truth.

Keith says Brian "found a key" .... patently untrue, from Brian's own mouth.

It shouldn't be too difficult for one of you motivated haters
to put up a nice, neat post with quotes from Keith's own interviews
contradicting himself.

Call it "Lies & the Lying Liar Who Told Them"
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby lotek » 23 Aug 2009 06:25

:oops:

back to business :)

(but still I'd like to investigate that name choice later if you don't mind ;))
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby lotek » 23 Aug 2009 06:41

What a pompous ass!
Basically a lot of different people have the goods on each other under the table, and that's how it all works. It's this big complicated system.

Evasive maneuvers engaged!
But there are also thousands of pages of his own character notes, background notes, his cogitations on the Bene Gesserit and how they formed, some back-history on the Butlerian Jihad… and I know I'm speaking a totally different language to someone who's not familiar with the books.

Like you are!


About those notes:
We decided to do the prequel instead of the sequel at the moment -- we will eventually do the last one. And after we had already plotted the prequel, that's when Brian, by digging through all the stuff we had on Dune, came upon the key to the safe deposit where he found the [Dune 7] outline.

Then Brian was trying to turn his garage into an office. Inside there, in a back corner, he found a Xerox (tm) box with thousands of pages of Frank Herbert's handwritten notes. It had all been put away at his father's death. Nothing was happening to them. It was like discovering this lost treasure or going into the C.I.A. warehouse and finding the Ark of the Covenant somewhere.


So there is a key to a safe deposit with the outline, and a Xerox box with notes on ???
Is there an older interview that we know of or is that one what would be the reference?

(note the already cheeky tone towards Fuzzy "was trying to turn his garage into an office", linguistically speaking he means he never succeeded)
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby SandChigger » 23 Aug 2009 07:51

Sorry, just one little point re the crap:

Redstar wrote:Considering what little is known of earth and human heritage, the Titans knowing even the name of any of the the originals they took their name from seems unlikely. Computers were obviously still in place by the time of the BJ, but I seriously doubt anything relevant prior to the 5,000 years or so before that time would still be recorded.

Except that in the crap, "Andrew Skouros" grew up on Earth and researched history, where he learned of the Titans of Greek myth, etc.. :roll:

User avatar
DuneFishUK
Posts: 1988
Joined: 25 May 2008 14:14
Location: Cool Britannia
Contact:

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby DuneFishUK » 23 Aug 2009 08:24

Pre-Jihad - wouldn't there be digital libraries? Data banks of all the old books for spacemen to read on their sub-light voyages.

Of course the computers would be destroyed post-Jihad and the data in them lost.. but that ties in...

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby SandChigger » 23 Aug 2009 09:11

From the Afterword to House Atreides:

... At the time of my father's untimely death in 1986, he was beginning to think about a novel that carried the working title DUNE 7, a project he had sold to Berkley Books, but on which there were no known notes or outlines. Dad and I had spoken in general terms about collaborating on a Dune novel one day in the future, but we'd set no date, had established no specific details or direction. It would be sometime after he completed DUNE 7 and other projects.

In ensuing years I thought about my late father's uncompleted series, especially after I concluded a five-year project writing DREAMER OF DUNE, a biography of this complex, enigmatic man—a biography which required that I analyze the origins and themes of the Dune series. After long consideration it seemed to me that it would be fascinating to write a book based upon the events he had described so tantalizingly in the Appendix to DUNE, a new novel in which I would go back ten thousand years to the time of the Butlerian Jihad, the legendary Great Revolt against thinking machines. That had been a mythical time in a mythical universe, a time when most of the Great Schools had been formed, including the Bene Gesserit, the Mentats, and the Swordmasters.

Upon learning of my interest, prominent writers approached me with offers of collaboration. But in tossing ideas around with them I couldn't visualize the project coming to fruition. They were excellent writers, but in combination with them I didn't feel the necessary synergy for such a monumental task. So I kept turning to other projects, avoiding the big one. Besides, while Dad had sprinkled many provocative loose ends in the fifth and sixth books of the series, he had written an afterword for CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE that was a marvelous dedication to my late mother, Beverly Herbert—his wife of nearly four decades. They had been a writing team in which she edited his work and acted as a sounding board for his overflow of ideas...so with both of them gone it seemed a fitting conclusion to leave the project untouched.

The trouble was, a fellow named Ed Kramer kept after me. An accomplished editor and sponsor of science fiction/fantasy conventions, he wanted to put together an anthology of short stories set in the Dune universe—stories by different, well-known authors. He convinced me that it would be an interesting, significant project, and we talked about coediting it. All the details weren't finalized, since the project had a number of complexities, both legal and artistic. In the midst of this, Ed told me he had received a letter from best-selling author Kevin J. Anderson, who had been invited to contribute to the proposed anthology. He suggested what he called a "shot in the dark," asking about the possibility of working at novel length, preferably on a sequel to CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE.

Kevin's enthusiasm for the Dune universe fairly jumped off the pages of his letter. Still, I delayed answering him for around a month, not certain how to respond. Despite his proven skills, I was hesitant. This was a big decision. By now I knew I wanted to be involved closely in the project, and that I needed to participate to such a degree in order to ensure the production of a novel of integrity, one that would be faithful to the original series. Along with J.R.R. Tolkien's LORD OF THE RINGS and a handful of other works, DUNE stood as one of the greatest creative achievements of all time, and arguably the greatest example of science fiction world-building in the history of literature. For the sake of my father's legacy, I couldn't select the wrong person. I read everything I could get my hands on that Kevin had written, and did more checking on him. It soon became clear to me that he was a brilliant writer, and that his reputation was sterling. I decided to give him a telephone call.

We hit it off immediately, both on a personal and professional level. Aside from the fact that I genuinely liked him, I felt an energy between us, a remarkable flow of ideas that would benefit the series. After obtaining the concurrence of my family, Kevin and I decided to write a prequel—but not one set in the ancient times, long before DUNE. Instead we would go to events only thirty or forty years before the beginning of DUNE, to the love story of Paul's parents, to the Planetologist Pardot Kynes being dispatched to Arrakis, to the reasons for the terrible, destructive enmity between House Atreides and House Harkonnen, and much more.

Before writing a detailed outline, we set to work rereading all six Dune books my father had written, and I took it upon myself to begin assembling a massive DUNE CONCORDANCE—an encyclopedia of all the characters, places, and wonders of the Dune universe. Of primary concern to us, we needed to determine where Dad had been heading with the conclusion of the series. It was clear that he was building up to something momentous in DUNE 7, and without intending to do so he had left us with a mystery. There were no known notes or other clues, only my memory that Dad had been using a yellow highlighter on paperback copies of HERETICS OF DUNE and CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE shortly before his death—books that no one could locate after he was gone.

In early May 1997, when I finally met Kevin J. Anderson and his wife, the author Rebecca Moesta, new story ideas fairly exploded from our minds. In a frenzy the three of us either scribbled them down or recorded them on tape. From these notes, scenes began to unfold, but still we wondered and debated where Dad had been going with the series.

In the last two books, HERETICS OF DUNE and CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE, he had introduced a new threat—the reviled Honored Matres—who proceeded to lay waste to much of the galaxy. By the end of CHAPTERHOUSE, the characters had been driven into a corner, utterly beaten...and then the reader learned that the Honored Matres themselves were running from an even greater mysterious threat...a peril that was drawing close to the protagonists of the story, most of whom were Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers.

A scant two weeks after our meeting, I received a telephone call from an estate lawyer who had handled matters involving my mother and father. He informed me that two safety-deposit boxes belonging to Frank Herbert had turned up in a suburb of Seattle, boxes that none of us knew existed. I made an appointment to meet with the bank authorities, and in an increasing air of excitement the safety-deposit boxes were opened. Inside were papers and old-style floppy computer disks that included comprehensive notes from an unpublished DUNE 7—the long-awaited sequel to CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE! Now Kevin and I knew for certain where Frank Herbert had been headed, and we could weave the events of our prequel into a future grand finale for the series.

We turned with new enthusiasm to the task of putting together a book proposal that could be shown to publishers. That summer I had a trip to Europe scheduled, an anniversary celebration that my wife Jan and I had been planning for a long time. I took along a new laptop computer and a featherweight printer, and Kevin and I exchanged FedEx packages all summer long. By the time I returned at the end of the summer, we had a massive 141-page trilogy proposal—the largest that either of us had ever seen. My allied DUNE CONCORDANCE project, the encyclopedia of all the marvelous treasures of the Dune universe, was a little over half-completed, with months of intensive work remaining before it would be finished.

As we waited to see if a publisher would be interested, I remembered the many writing sessions I had enjoyed with my father, and my early novels in the 1980s that had received his loving, attentive suggestions for improvement. Everything I had learned from him—and more—would be needed for this huge prequel project.

—Brian Herbert

BoBo makes no mention of the boxes of thousands of notes, but Kevin, in his part of the same afterword, does:
We hope you have enjoyed revisiting the Dune universe through our eyes. It has been an immense honor to sift through thousands of pages of Frank Herbert's original notes, so that we might re-create some of the vivid realms that sprang from his research, his imagination, and his life. I still find DUNE as exciting and thought-provoking as I did when I first encountered it many years ago.

—Kevin J. Anderson

Note also the mention of the proposed anthology here; I'd forgotten about that being in this book.

The fact that he can call THE PREMIER HACK in the industry a "brilliant writer" says a lot about BoBo's general competence.
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18163
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby Freakzilla » 23 Aug 2009 10:09

it also seems to make their statement that they HAD to write the prequels (and we had to buy them) for the sequels to make sense, a bold faced lie.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Ampoliros
Posts: 2518
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 23 Aug 2009 12:27

Perhaps it was a clever Tleilaxu trap, by reading the prequels we'd know they had no notes and no idea about most of Frank's universe, and therefore should avoid the "Dune 7" duology like the plague.

No that can't be it, the think they Tleilaxu are evil little elves.
Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby SandRider » 23 Aug 2009 15:47

Keith just said, in interviews this month, that he sent the "shot in the dark" letter to Brian.

I know, petty details, doesn't effect the story ...

Brian Herbert wrote:In early May 1997, when I finally met Kevin J. Anderson and his wife, the author Rebecca Moesta, new story ideas fairly exploded from our minds. In a frenzy the three of us either scribbled them down or recorded them on tape.


I don't guess I've ever read this piece in whole, just excerpts posted here. I didn't know
this one. Scary. And, now I can blame Rebecca for anything I want, too.

Brian Herbert wrote:A scant two weeks after our meeting, I received a telephone call from an estate lawyer who had handled matters involving my mother and father. He informed me that two safety-deposit boxes belonging to Frank Herbert had turned up in a suburb of Seattle, boxes that none of us knew existed. I made an appointment to meet with the bank authorities, and in an increasing air of excitement the safety-deposit boxes were opened. Inside were papers and old-style floppy computer disks that included comprehensive notes from an unpublished DUNE 7—the long-awaited sequel to CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE! Now Kevin and I knew for certain where Frank Herbert had been headed, and we could weave the events of our prequel into a future grand finale for the series.


The smoking gun for Keith's "Brian found a key" bullshit.

and let's chew on this : "Inside were papers and old-style floppy computer disks that included comprehensive notes from an unpublished DUNE 7"

"comprehensive" must have undergone a change in definition over the last ten years I wasn't aware of.

and: "knew for certain where Frank Herbert had been headed"

start hanging them both high with this one, boys.
Brian's claiming the robots & whatever the hell Duncan became was all Frank's idea.
This should be easy to refute.

And it still comes down to "tits or GTFO" -
turn all these "notes" over to the Fullerton Archive, or we'll forever think you're both just full of shit.
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby SandRider » 23 Aug 2009 15:54

and since we seem to have a dual-topic thread here,
I'll toss in my 2-cents on the Greek thing.

while obviously some Old Earth history survived to the "general" population,
(Paul mentions Hitler to Stilgar) I don't think Frank came up the idea of
descent from Agamemnon until God-Emperor. And then, only Leto II would
have had the capability to look back thru the lines and say for certain ....

One, I doubt that the Atreides had an idea of their distant lineage,
and two, I don't think Frank thought of that until later on ...

now, not having actually read Keith's silly-books, is there a statement
in the prequels that the pre-Paul Atreides knew they were descended
from Agamemnon ?

If so, this is just another careless, thoughtless "inconsistency" ...
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby lotek » 23 Aug 2009 16:26

is it not possible to split the subjects? I'd like to look this up a bit further as it also dwelves into FH's motivations and goals, which are far more interesting than the HAck's :)
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby SandChigger » 23 Aug 2009 16:52

SandRider wrote:I don't think Frank came up the idea of
descent from Agamemnon until God-Emperor. And then, only Leto II would
have had the capability to look back thru the lines and say for certain ....

Take it back to Children, at least:

FH in CoD, about Alia having a fit, wrote: But the voice persisted: "It might work, if you had help."
"No...no," she whispered.
Other voices wove around her mind: "I, Agamemnon, your ancestor, demand audience!"
"No...no. "She pressed her hands against her ears until the flesh answered her with pain.
An insane cackle within her head asked: "What has become of Ovid? Simple. He's John Bartlett's ibid!"

And later, in a conversation between Ghanima & Irulan:
"Very well! I'll keep trying to dissuade you. This course is madness." And Irulan wondered why she let Ghanima become so irritating. A Bene Gesserit didn't need to be irritated at anything. She said: "I'm concerned by the extreme danger to you. You know that. Ghani, Ghani...you're Paul's daughter. How can you —"
"Because I'm his daughter," Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon and we know what's in our blood. Never forget that, childless wife of my father. We Atreides have a bloody history and we're not through with the blood."
Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"


now, not having actually read Keith's silly-books, is there a statement
in the prequels that the pre-Paul Atreides knew they were descended
from Agamemnon ?

If so, this is just another careless, thoughtless "inconsistency" ...

Got it:
Hack(s) in House Atreides wrote:House Atreides claimed to trace its roots more than twelve thousand years, back to the ancient sons of Atreus on Old Terra. Now the family embraced its long history, despite the numerous tragic and dishonorable incidents it contained. The Dukes had made an annual tradition of performing the classic tragedy of Agamemnon, the most famous son of Atreus and one of the generals who had conquered Troy.

Note that they got the dates fucked up: should be something like "more than twenty-two thousand years". (And "dishonorable incidents" ... is that a hint, even from the very beginning in HA, of things to come in the Legends books? Just how much planning DID they do?)
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

User avatar
DuneFishUK
Posts: 1988
Joined: 25 May 2008 14:14
Location: Cool Britannia
Contact:

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby DuneFishUK » 23 Aug 2009 17:34

Damn, those hacks messed in my memory!

Hmm.. that is a full-blown inconsistency :)

Add it to the list...

EDIT: on second thoughts.. it might not be.

I'm thinking: Atreus is damn close to Atreides... especially after 20,000 years - is it too close for coincidence? They must have known. What if an Atreides ancestor found-out at some point in the past and changed the family name to something more regal, with a bit more history behind it.

(The fact the hacks don't go into any detail, is pretty telling. HA is full of exposition. As far as they're concerned this is an inconsistency, and they were careless. Maybe they only read half the sheet of notes.)

User avatar
Redstar
Posts: 1184
Joined: 25 Feb 2009 04:13

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby Redstar » 23 Aug 2009 17:58

SandChigger wrote:Sorry, just one little point re the crap:

Redstar wrote:Considering what little is known of earth and human heritage, the Titans knowing even the name of any of the the originals they took their name from seems unlikely. Computers were obviously still in place by the time of the BJ, but I seriously doubt anything relevant prior to the 5,000 years or so before that time would still be recorded.

Except that in the crap, "Andrew Skouros" grew up on Earth and researched history, where he learned of the Titans of Greek myth, etc.. :roll:

Earth still existed, and was destroyed, by that time? Did they have to make every significant event in the Duniverse happen in the same 30-year period?.

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: Kevin J. Anderson: Pumped on Dune

Postby SandChigger » 23 Aug 2009 18:07

Redstar wrote:Earth still existed, and was destroyed, by that time? Did they have to make every significant event in the Duniverse happen in the same 30-year period?.

I'd have to check the timeline, but the Titans take over and then lose control to Omnius something like more than 1,000 years BEFORE the Legends books events. Time for Omnius Prime to set up on Earth, blah blah blah. Earth isn't nuked until the beginning of the Butlerian Jihad. :roll:
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA


Return to “˱”