Alia and Paul.

Image
    Can't find the appropriate forum for your topic? Post it here!

Moderators: ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Omphalos, Freakzilla

User avatar
SadisticCynic
Posts: 2032
Joined: 07 Apr 2009 09:28
Location: In Time or in Space?

Alia and Paul.

Postby SadisticCynic » 24 Sep 2009 10:21

In another thread this site was posted: http://www.moongadget.com/origins/dune.html

Reading through it I got to this:

Herbert borrowed several other riffs from Sophocles, including the blind prophet, the hero becoming blind at the death of his wife, and the flawed person being sent out into the wasteland to die (rather than burdening his family and tribe). Herbert also flirted with the subtheme of incest: if love can only exist between equals, there aren't enough superhumans on Arrakis to go around, so Atreides siblings tend to fall in love: Leto II and Ghani follow the Path of Light, refusing to act on their almost romantic love for each other. Alia is in love with Paul, so she arranges for him to chance upon her when she has no clothes on. This attempt to seduce Paul into an incestuous relationship is evidence that Alia has fallen to the Dark Path.


Interesting take on the Alia fighting naked thing. That's not what I thought it was about. I took it to be her need for a mate; basically what Stilgar points out. Mohiam tries to see if incest is possible but both Paul and Alia seem to object to the idea.

While Leto and Ghani share quite a strong bond Leto says:

Sister mine, I love you more dearly than myself, but that [Ghani bearing his children] is not the tender of my desires.


Before this, however, Leto does was "suppressing the inner betrayals". Which might suggest he speaks other than he thinks. But I think this is a possible reference to his taking the throne but marrying Ghani in order to retain the Atreides name.

Anyway, any thoughts on either pairing?

(By the way, sorry if this is an awkward subject for anyone.)
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity

Futar
Posts: 42
Joined: 17 Sep 2009 19:11

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby Futar » 24 Sep 2009 10:45

Alia and Paul never really gave me that vibe. Ghani and Leto however seemed rather creepy at times. Perhaps it's just my perverse mind, but when they play the parent game I always thought of what a couple with that sort of chance might actually want to do... I suppose that's more Paul and Chani, but it is Leto and Ghani's bodies :shock:

The only ones who seem to ever support the idea of incest would be the Bene Gesserit for their breeding purposes. I think Mohiam even explains this to Paul in their first meeting. Other than that i do get the impression of it being taboo in the Dune Universe as well.

User avatar
redbugpest
Posts: 424
Joined: 23 Jun 2009 14:17
Location: Lost in La Manancha

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby redbugpest » 24 Sep 2009 10:59

I agree with the comparison to Sophocles.

I did get the incest vibe from Children of Dune, but not as much anywhere else, though it may have been meant to be more of a one sided desire by Alia, just as I felt there was undertones of interest by the Baron towards Feyd.
__________________________________________________________________

User avatar
TheDukester
Posts: 3808
Joined: 20 Jun 2008 13:44
Location: Operation Enduring Bacon
Contact:

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby TheDukester » 24 Sep 2009 11:04

:shock:

The 32-day absence ends!
"Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.

User avatar
redbugpest
Posts: 424
Joined: 23 Jun 2009 14:17
Location: Lost in La Manancha

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby redbugpest » 24 Sep 2009 11:06

TheDukester wrote::shock:

The 32-day absence ends!


I didn't know you were counting....

but yes, I had some time today to see what I have been missing...
__________________________________________________________________

User avatar
TheDukester
Posts: 3808
Joined: 20 Jun 2008 13:44
Location: Operation Enduring Bacon
Contact:

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby TheDukester » 24 Sep 2009 11:08

Sigh.

One click, Brian. I looked to see when your most recent post had been. No one was counting. It was one click.
"Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.

User avatar
redbugpest
Posts: 424
Joined: 23 Jun 2009 14:17
Location: Lost in La Manancha

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby redbugpest » 24 Sep 2009 11:10

TheDukester wrote:Sigh.

One click, Brian. I looked to see when your most recent post had been. No one was counting. It was one click.


And I thought I was feeing some love. *sigh*

Looks like I have missed a bunch of stuff...
__________________________________________________________________

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby SandRider » 24 Sep 2009 11:18

yeah, this board has members & stuff.

BTW, what's happened with the Chaos Forum ?
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

User avatar
Leto
Posts: 78
Joined: 29 Mar 2008 12:54
Location: Here and there
Contact:

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby Leto » 24 Sep 2009 13:16

Futar wrote:Alia and Paul never really gave me that vibe. Ghani and Leto however seemed rather creepy at times. Perhaps it's just my perverse mind, but when they play the parent game I always thought of what a couple with that sort of chance might actually want to do... I suppose that's more Paul and Chani, but it is Leto and Ghani's bodies :shock:

I agree with that, Leto & Ghani relationship is far more complicated and private than Paul & Alia's, who is only "on heat" :o .
Leto & Ghani are closer, cause of Paul & Chani OM but they belong all their OM (e.g. Leto I & Jessica --> remember the scene between Jessica & Leto II, she look the grandfather more than her grandchild...).
If wishes were fishes, we would all cast nets
Gurney Halleck
Image
Image
KJA ? Keep Just Away?
Filo

User avatar
redbugpest
Posts: 424
Joined: 23 Jun 2009 14:17
Location: Lost in La Manancha

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby redbugpest » 24 Sep 2009 13:38

SandRider wrote:yeah, this board has members & stuff.

BTW, what's happened with the Chaos Forum ?


I took it down. I am repurposing my site, and decided the forum concept, while nifty, just didn't fit.

How is your Dune forum holding up? Looked a little empty when I dropped in…
__________________________________________________________________

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby SandChigger » 24 Sep 2009 14:06

redbugpest wrote:I agree with the comparison to Sophocles.

Well STOP the fucking presses! :roll:

(No, seriously, STOP the Dynumbnic Duo from publishing anything else with DUNE on the cover! :D )

Like Dune, Sophocles reads much better in the original. :D
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

User avatar
SadisticCynic
Posts: 2032
Joined: 07 Apr 2009 09:28
Location: In Time or in Space?

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby SadisticCynic » 24 Sep 2009 18:36

Futar wrote:Alia and Paul never really gave me that vibe. Ghani and Leto however seemed rather creepy at times. Perhaps it's just my perverse mind, but when they play the parent game I always thought of what a couple with that sort of chance might actually want to do... I suppose that's more Paul and Chani, but it is Leto and Ghani's bodies :shock:

The only ones who seem to ever support the idea of incest would be the Bene Gesserit for their breeding purposes. I think Mohiam even explains this to Paul in their first meeting. Other than that i do get the impression of it being taboo in the Dune Universe as well.


It does appear to be taboo and is especially so within Fremen culture, and I agree with you about Alia and Paul; I simply thought the conclusion that the author of the site got to, that Alia fought naked knowing Paul would find her so, was a little odd. Was she in love with Paul? Did I miss something?

I'm rereading Children of Dune and that scene were they do the parent trick can give you such thoughts. :)

I think the only reason the Bene Gesserit are not fond of it is the interference of accumulating recessives, which can be difficult to eliminate later.
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity

Futar
Posts: 42
Joined: 17 Sep 2009 19:11

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby Futar » 24 Sep 2009 22:04

SadisticCynic wrote:I think the only reason the Bene Gesserit are not fond of it is the interference of accumulating recessives, which can be difficult to eliminate later.


for some reason that thought escaped me earlier but it does make sense

this is what i thought of when referencing the BG using incest in the first place:

Paul: "Then why couldn't she know who her parents are?"
Mohiam: "Some do. . . . Many don't. We might, for example, have wanted to breed her to a close relative to set up a dominant in some genetic trait. We have many reasons."

from the first chapter of the original :D

User avatar
Redstar
Posts: 1184
Joined: 25 Feb 2009 04:13

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby Redstar » 24 Sep 2009 23:40

It's important to note the difference between incest and inbreeding. Inbreeding is merely the genetic factors involved, and you can easily inbreed with someone outside the family but inside your genetic society that is similar enough to be considered similar enough not to promote diversity.

Incest is the cultural side of inbreeding, which can differ among different areas. Cousin-marriages are extremely common and sometimes even promoted nearly everywhere but the US. To "commit incest" is merely to break taboo.

I think it's possible that Leto II and Ghanima would share some semblance of romantic love for each other and possibly have committed inbreeding if their roles for humanity were much different. It should be realized that both are pre-born, so are ultimately sociologists more than Fremen. They have the advantage of being outside-looking-in and wouldn't have the qualms most humans do. They only pretend to, or manipulate the taboos of others (Pharaonic marriage), because they have roles to fill.

Paul and Alia-incest is just stupid. They no had no chemistry.

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby SandRider » 25 Sep 2009 09:43

redbugpest wrote:
SandRider wrote:yeah, this board has members & stuff.

BTW, what's happened with the Chaos Forum ?


I took it down. I am repurposing my site, and decided the forum concept, while nifty, just didn't fit.

How is your Dune forum holding up? Looked a little empty when I dropped in…



I don't have a "Dune Forum" - I used a free php message board service to collect all of Frank's
interviews & essays in one place, which was easy to do because there are not many of them.

built that site in a few days over Christmas week last year & haven't added or worked on it since.
it wasn't publicized beyond a few people here until earlier this year, when I ran across the link again.
(I'd sorta forgotten about it) and put it out there for anyone who was interested to take over and
build on.

it's not a forum, it's a library.
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby lotek » 25 Sep 2009 15:45

That's not your forum it's a library, baby!
Spice is the worm's gonads.

RedHeadKevin
Posts: 66
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 19:45
Contact:

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby RedHeadKevin » 25 Sep 2009 19:26

Apart from the BG suggesting either a Paul/Alia or Leto/Ghanima crossbreeding in Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, respectively, I didn't notice any incestuous vibe between Paul and Alia. Leto and Ghani did creep me out a little. One problem I always had was trying to take them serious, when they're supposed to be 9 years old. Imagining any of their lines coming out of a 9 year old's mouth just seems incredibly wierd to me. (Probably one reason I prefer imagining Leto and Ghani as the actors from the CoD miniseries. I can take them more seriously than 2 9 year olds.) The CoD miniseries is what really brought the creepy Leto/Ghani vibe. Watching James McEvoy and Jessica Brooks gave me the creeps sometimes, particularly in the scene where Leto comes back from the desert,all sandtrouted up.
I don't recommend anyone drink their thigh pad water. It tastes really bad, like ass and dirt.

User avatar
TheDukester
Posts: 3808
Joined: 20 Jun 2008 13:44
Location: Operation Enduring Bacon
Contact:

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby TheDukester » 25 Sep 2009 19:27

RedHeadKevin wrote:Watching James McEvoy and Jessica Brooks gave me the creeps sometimes ...

That's odd. It gave me a funny tingling in my nethers ...
"Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.

User avatar
Tleszer
Posts: 2161
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:02

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby Tleszer » 25 Sep 2009 20:58

TheDukester wrote:
RedHeadKevin wrote:Watching James McEvoy and Jessica Brooks gave me the creeps sometimes ...

That's odd. It gave me a funny tingling in my nethers ...

Um... mine too...? :shifty:
DUNE, as interpreted by a blue man with a green tushie

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby SandChigger » 25 Sep 2009 21:37

Um, I probably needn't mention this, but as for what that scene did to my "nethers"

I GOT PIX!!! :angry-screaming:

User avatar
Ampoliros
Posts: 2518
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby Ampoliros » 25 Sep 2009 21:53

I certainly did not get a 'tingling'. And I certainly do not have the time stamp for Jessica Brooks in her night gown memorized (Part 2 50:49). I most certainly do not have a habit of watching it over and over again.


But I don't have pics, so i can't prove any of this.
Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus

User avatar
Tleszer
Posts: 2161
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:02

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby Tleszer » 26 Sep 2009 09:05

SandChigger wrote:Um, I probably needn't mention this, but as for what that scene did to my "nethers"

I GOT PIX!!! :angry-screaming:

No offense, but I think I'm gonna pass on those pix, Chig.

Ampoliros wrote:I certainly did not get a 'tingling'. And I certainly do not have the time stamp for Jessica Brooks in her night gown memorized (Part 2 50:49). I most certainly do not have a habit of watching it over and over again.


But I don't have pics, so i can't prove any of this.

:laughing:
DUNE, as interpreted by a blue man with a green tushie

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby SandChigger » 26 Sep 2009 10:37

Tleszer wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Um, I probably needn't mention this, but as for what that scene did to my "nethers"

I GOT PIX!!! :angry-screaming:

No offense, but I think I'm gonna pass on those pix, Chig.

That's OK, really. Most people do. Some even pass out. Or vomit into their mouths. I'm not bothered. :D

User avatar
Ampoliros
Posts: 2518
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby Ampoliros » 27 Sep 2009 18:01

is it any worse than this? http://www.twochigsonecup.com
Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: Alia and Paul.

Postby SandChigger » 27 Sep 2009 19:48

Depends on what you're into. ;)


Return to “˱”