Transplanting a worm.

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Crysknife
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Transplanting a worm.

Postby Crysknife » 23 Feb 2008 19:52

This is a thread I statred over at 'Keen, but I thought I'd bring it over here as well.

I would like to challenge the assumption that the worms were only able to be transplanted to another world because of Leto and his pearls of awareness. I wanted to start a new thread because this doesn’t really pertain to the sandtrouts origins.

I will start with a quote. Here where Teg speaks to Lucilla at the end of HoD:

The Honored Matres have been trying to locate and capture a worm without success. I really don't understand how they could be so blind in their concept of how you transplant one of them."

"Transplant?" Lucilla was floundered. Teg had seldom seen a Reverened Mother at such a loss. She was trying to assemble the things he had said. a mentat could come to a qualified conviction without sufficient data.


And later, Odrade:

Lastly, she thought about the worm in the no-ships hold- a worm nearing the moment of its metamorphosis. a small earth-dammed basin filled with melange awaited that worm. When the moment came, it would be lured out by Sheeana into the bath of melange and water. The resulting sandtrout could then begin their long transformation.

You were right, father. It was so simple when you looked at it clearly.

No need to seek a desert planet for the worms. The sandtrout would create their own habitat for Shai-hulud. It was not pleasant to think of Chapter house Planet transformed into vast areas of wasteland but it had to be done.


Why would the Mother Superior herself be shocked at the relative ease of transplant after Teg discovered the right way to do it? You don't think that the BG tried to transplant the worms after Leto? Sure they did. They failed. If Leto made the worms able to be transplanted....why weren't they.....no argument is satisfactory thus far.

Even with the Pearls of Awareness the HM's still couldn't transplant the worms or sandtrout. And no one else did for thousands of years after Leto either. Teg obviously thought the HM could do it if they used the right technique so I don't think Sheeana was the key either.

There is no doubt that the worms were different after Leto. But If Leto is right about the worms being introduced......then it must come down to technique for they already exist or existed somewhere else, and perhaps exist throughout the universe.
It is true that people have been trying to transplant the worms and sandtrout to other planets for thousands of years but, in the end, it came down to HOW you do it.

The worm cycle never succeeded because everyone kept taking the sandtrout to desert planets. They overlooked the fact that the sandtrout need water to survive! It plays a key role in the cycle.


On a planet wide cycle(or any cycle), there would be no reproduction without water. The sandtrout could take much of Chapterhouse's ocean under the sand with only being in control of a small amount of surface area. They will eventually take it all and any other water to be had. Just like they did on Dune. Even Leto with his pearls of awareness(if you even believe that matters) couldn’t make the sandtrout and worms survive on a desert planet that was devoid of water before the worms came. There would be no cycle...Leto or no Leto.

We know of only one attempt first hand. The attempt to transplant to Salusa Secundus. We know that SS was as much a wasteland as Dune if not more. Water would be scarce there as well. We know water is needed to "dissolve" a worm into sandtrout. Then the santrout utilized the water(this is why Leto had to be killed over or near water). But no one would have done that because they knew water was poison to the worm...or so they thought. No doubt sandtrout were also taken off of dune as well. But everyone would have put them right in the middle of a desert! They would have died before they found the water they needed. It was right in front of everyone’s faces but they couldn't see it....until Teg that is. Take the worms to a water rich world?! Are you insane?!
Exactly!

SS was considered a good candidate for transplant. It mirrored Dune in many ways. But the point is that SS was a wasteland before the worm was introduced. Dune was a water rich world and far from being a wasteland before the worms came. Besides, all they did on SS was to stick the worm on the surface and wait for something to happen. In this case the worm would perish along with any sandtrout that it was composed of. The surface wasn't ready for a worm anyway as there were no sandtrout to prepare it. IF they had submerged it in water and IF there was enough water on the planet anyway(I suspect there wasn't for a full blown cycle to begin) then it might have succeeded. I also don't think that it is necessary to begin a transplant with a worm. Sandtrout would work just fine.....you just can't drop them on a desert planet and expect them to survive. And for thousands of years before Leto and thousands after, that is what happened.

We know water will break apart a worm because of Leto. We also know that spice essence(or alot of spice) will break apart a worm do to Leto's interview with the BG witches in GoD. We know sandplankton feed on spice. The worms feed on sandplankton. In HoD...Odrade looks upon the worm in the no-ships hold on its bed of Rakian sand. Which must have contained sandplankton....perhaps this is what the melange in the water was for. And it is also vital because ALL of the cycle is included.

And one thing to note on the origins issue. Humanity kept atomics as a weapon against an alien threat if one was ever found that was hostile. It says it in the books. While I agree that humans were the subject of Dune, I don't agree that Frank completely wanted the alien factor left out. His universe is infinite.

Actually, I think it's more romantic to think that aliens were the reason that the worms are on Dune. All they would have to do is send a terraforming drone or probe through foldspace(which they would have no doubt) to any given area, have the probe search for a planet and drop the worms....easy. And with foldspace, the probe could come from across the universe....not just the known universe. Once the worms had done their job...the aliens could move in. perhaps the probe that created Dune was a stray....who knows. Evolution? I don't know about that. A small probe would be hard to ever find, and we could search for millions of years for this other race without ever finding evidence of them or crossing their path. Or it may be a gift to any race that came across it. Perhaps the Aliens failed at their attempts at prescience and were giving another race the opportunity. Or the worms could have come from humanity, but from the future! We don’t know how foldspace really works. Perhaps someone figured out how to send them back in time with an altered foldspace? Just some random thoughts.

As for terraforming, I'm not sure about that either. But it shouldn't be ruled out. If humanity could leave earth knowing that there were planets out there ready to be colonized right away(because we sent drones in the past)...wouldn't that be to our advantage? Even an advanced race with foldspace could utilize this technique. Then they just have to take their sweet time and go follow the drones. No hurry...millions were sent.
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Postby SandChigger » 23 Feb 2008 20:22

Interesting.

You basically kill the "the Leto pearls/hybridized worms are necessary for transplanting" with the observation that the worms are not indigenous to Arrakis: they were transplanted long before Leto.

A bit wild with the speculations at the end, but there's one good reason why "worms from the future" doesn't work: all worms after Leto have the pearls of awareness, so the sandtrout transplanted to Arrakis can't be from the future.

I've pointed out before that the Torkos timeline in its current form, with the transplant occuring before 1200 BCE, implicitly implies an alien agency. No doubt we'll be told in the future that it was the Muadru aliens what done it. :roll:
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Postby Crysknife » 23 Feb 2008 20:30

yeah, I later realized that worms from the future couldn't happen, unless humans had found a way to restore sandtrout to thier pre-Leto state.
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Postby The Sons of Idaho » 24 Feb 2008 11:10

Actually, when I first read the books, I never thought about the Leto effect being the cause of the transplant success. It seemed to be a common belief that I overlooked.

But that is one of the things I like about coming here, I get to see new points of view from people who know the books well.

It always struck me as another example of human ingenuity prevailing given enough time. There are multiple examples over the long timeline of humans eventually accomplishing what was previously impossible – Ixian navigation machines, Tleilaxu spice, ghola memory. The common theme in the books of human potential conistently shows that given the right pressures, the impossible is eventually accomplished.

Now, the things you pointed out make me think maybe I wasn’t that far off
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Postby Omphalos » 24 Feb 2008 13:32

I also just thought that humans figured it out, but that it was part of Leto's plan. I laid the basics of this down in the Golden Path article I wrote a while ago. It was one aspect of killing monopoly and lessening costs to make everythng else cheaper.

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Postby Tleilax Master B » 29 Feb 2008 16:28

Great stuff Crys! I've been feeling for awhile that the "more adaptable worms or sandtrout" theory might not really be the main issue. I have a theory of my own why the Pearls of Awareness are in the sandtrout/worms..

At one point in GEoD Leto II discusses with Siona how she could take the sandtrout skin:

"You mean that I . . . could?" She touched her breast with a finger.
"If there were enough sandtrout around. Unfortunately, all of them enclose my flesh. However, if I were to die. . ."
She shook her head in dumb horror at the thought.
"The Oral History tells it accurately," he said. "And we must never forget that you believe the Oral History."
She continued to shake her head from side to side.
"There's no secret about it," he said. "The first moments of the transformation are the critical ones. Your awareness must drive inward and outward simultaneously, one with Infinity. I could provide you with enough melange to accomplish this. Given enough spice, you can live through those first awful moments . . . and all the other moments."
She shuddered uncontrollably, her gaze fixed on his eyes.
"You know I'm telling you the truth, don't you?"
She nodded, inhaled a deep trembling breath, then: "Why did you do it?"
"The alternative was far more horrible."
"What alternative?"
"In time, you may understand it. Moneo did."
"Your damned Golden Path!"
"Not damned at all. Quite holy."
"You think I'm a fool who can't..."
"I think you're inexperienced, but possessed of great capability whose potential you do not even suspect."



Basically, any Atreides, with the right amount of spice could take the sandtrout skin. Maybe THIS is why Leto did what he did. Perhaps if another Atreides were to put on such skin, we would still have some control of the Worm. He could essentially prevent abuse of such power or help provide control.

Furthermore, they mention at one point (I believe) that "Sheeana" was a derivative of the name Siona. Perhaps the very reason that Sheeana could control the worms was because of the Pearls of leto inside of them. It is this descendant of Siona, that is so like Siona in many ways, that the Worm senses this and follows Sheeana. And offspring with Duncan would have this same ability--being not only a descendant of Sheeana, but also a descedant of the Duncan's that Leto loved so much. Sandworms, with leto's pearls, would sense this and their offspring too would be able to control the beasts.


The BG could then seed worlds with the Sandtrout as you described, and employ the descendants of Duncan and Sheeana to control them on all the worlds where the worms live.

Just some thoughts.....
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Postby Crysknife » 29 Feb 2008 19:22

The BG could then seed worlds with the Sandtrout as you described, and employ the descendants of Duncan and Sheeana to control them on all the worlds where the worms live.

Just some thoughts.....


Oooh, you're getting close to something I had worked out for my fan-fic :D (which reminds me that I need to get started on that again.)
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Postby SandChigger » 01 Mar 2008 01:04

Sigh.

Dune is definitely in the wrong hands. Oh well.
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Re: Transplanting a worm.

Postby Onasander » 06 May 2010 12:27

so- a big question arises- where were the oceans on Dune during GEOD? If he was all the sandtrout (he was not yet a actual sandworm, still growing)- and there was a lot of water on Dune in the beginning- where was it? Idaho River? That's it?

What happens to these sandworms underwater? They form a waterproof chain of sorts- but what actually happens maintenance and lifecycle wise? What prohibits them from breaking free on occasion, hooking up with other little buddies and forming new worms?

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Re: Transplanting a worm.

Postby Mandy » 06 May 2010 13:54

The only desert left was the Sareer around the Citadel. Even that was too moist for Leto's comfort. There may have been other small deserts on the planet, but nothing like the Dune days. Water was everywhere. I don't remember if oceans or lakes were mentioned in GEoD, but I'm sure they were on the planet.
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Re: Transplanting a worm.

Postby Freakzilla » 06 May 2010 14:11

What is all this talk of oceans?
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Re: Transplanting a worm.

Postby Onasander » 06 May 2010 15:40

If all the sandtrout on Dune were dead- then why wouldn't there be oceans on dune during Leto's Reign? Why only the mention of a river?

This is indicative in the very least about something of the lifecycle of the sandtrout- if the sandtrout die once they absorb water and seal it off- then it means they must hold it as they are dead as well. How would a functioning ecology be expected to work if the worms were still alive and breeding (if they breed- not certain how they reproduced, if it was sexual or not, or optional, or none of the above)

My thinking is- if dune had oceans once- and the trout got rid of it- then why wouldn't it return if all the sand trout were dead? Does this mean they were all dead, or does it mean they could no longer reproduced, were still living, and were keeping most of Dune's water in check even in the entirety of Leto's lifespan, when the planet was much more moist on the surface?

It's a good question to ask, especially regarding Leto's death, and how his body broke up and went it's separate ways. Either Dune had oceans, never really had them even pre-worm, sand trout unable to reproduce were still alive and holding back the dam, or there were a bunch of juicy sandtrout carcasses underground plump full of water.

I dislike the ocean idea on Dune at anypoint- but it does cause one to ask this question.

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Re: Transplanting a worm.

Postby Mandy » 06 May 2010 15:56

What makes you think there weren't oceans during Leto's time? The story in GEoD doesn't occur on or near an ocean, so there's no need to mention one.
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Re: Transplanting a worm.

Postby Freakzilla » 06 May 2010 17:13

Who ever said sandtrout need oceans? The requirement is WATER.
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Re: Transplanting a worm.

Postby SandChigger » 06 May 2010 19:48

Onasander, READ the goddamned books:

With First Moon almost directly overhead, it was quite light in the forest and, although these were the higher latitudes of Arrakis it was still warm from the heat of a summer day. The nightly drift of air from the Last Desert of the Sareer carried resin smells and the damp exhalations of the duff underfoot. Now and again, a breeze from the Kynes Sea beyond the Sareer drifted across the runners' tracks with hints of salt and fishes.

IN THE warm season when the satellite weather controllers were forced to contend with winds across the great seas, evening often saw rainfall at the edges of the Sareer. ...

Leto did not answer. The cart creaked as he heaved his bulk into an arching curve which lifted his head and allowed him to look across the Forbidden Forest to the Kynes Sea glistening silver far off to the right. ...

Fucking poser.